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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Or Roboute Trumpiman. The whole thing things to have really emboldened the local 40k MAGA crowd instead of admonishing them like the artist wanted to. Probably because it used already existing memery (including Carolus Rex) that has been around for three years already, which just reinforced it all.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:44
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eSportseXpert posted:I'm thinking about having 4 laser ridgerunners roll about with a jackal alphus so they can always shoot something at 4+ if they move or 3+ if they don't. They're also the toyota hilux technicals of 40k so I'm having trouble not liking them. They are great models, dunno if I'd toss 400+pts to it, but you're welcome to give it a try.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:55
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Badablack posted:The same problems from the index. You’re gonna need a lot of long range chaff killers to clear a landing zone for your deepstrikers or they’ll be zoned out and dying in droves after killing nothing but cheap bodies. Beyond mortars what do you think would help with clearing chaff? I'm thinking cheap multi-laser Sentinels and a Russ with Exterminator & heavy bolters. Maybe drop some shotgun neophytes on turn 2 then save the heavy hitters for turn 3. Guess my old brood brothers stuff will be useful after all! xtothez fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 19:00
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Ghazk posted:My Grotcanicum pulled best converted at the LVO 40K narrative! FRACK yeah! Absolutely good on you my handsome and powerful friend 
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Feb 11, 2019 19:02
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Flashing Square posted:How do people cheat at this game? I have only played very casually with friends (and not much, at that), so cheating has never been an issue. In addition to what the other goon said... The dude in question also straight up: 1. Shot at things that were clearly out of measured range. (That he measured) 2. Moved units outside of movement phases and also moved them farther than the allowable distance. 3. Changed wound tracking dice. All while on camera for a twitch stream lol
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Feb 11, 2019 19:05
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PierreTheMime posted:They are great models, dunno if I'd toss 400+pts to it, but you're welcome to give it a try. I just don't want to paint any more infantry than it already looks like I'm about to 
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Feb 11, 2019 19:10
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:1. Shot at things that were clearly out of measured range. (That he measured) Hoo boy surely there’s video of this
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Feb 11, 2019 19:23
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xtothez posted:Beyond mortars what do you think would help with clearing chaff? I'm thinking cheap multi-laser Sentinels and a Russ with Exterminator & heavy bolters. Maybe drop some shotgun neophytes on turn 2 then save the heavy hitters for turn 3. Like I mentioned in the previous post, it's looking like Atalan Jackals are a good pick for the Fast Attack slot: code:
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Feb 11, 2019 19:23
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PierreTheMime posted:Like I mentioned in the previous post, it's looking like Atalan Jackals are a good pick for the Fast Attack slot: You only get 1 launcher per 4 bikes though, right? Plus autoguns are only for the leader, so any other options are short range / melee.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:40
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Ghazk posted:My Grotcanicum pulled best converted at the LVO 40K narrative! Oh hey! Congrats! I literally walked past you playing this game with this army....
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Feb 11, 2019 19:40
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PierreTheMime posted:35pts versus 52pts, with the Jackal unit having an overall higher damage output. The units vary pretty heavily in terms of their defensive stats, so there's the possibility that you might want to just sit back and fire with Sentinels from cover, but Jackals are pretty drat mobile. I think its only 1 GL per 4 jackals, if you could take 4 launchers in one though I'd be all over them. E:ah, beaten ^ for content, meet Pat, he he has specially adapted limbs for skull holding: 
eSportseXpert fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 19:40
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Blarg well nevermind then, Sentinels all day. I’d probably rely on HWTs for anti-chaff and use them for light vehicle hunting with autocannons.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPF1I_1SW4 ...I think I'd still want a transfer sheet.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:52
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Cooked Auto posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPF1I_1SW4 Then I just went  as he freehanded the whole thing.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:59
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Yeah I'll be honest I don't really want to paint any more infantry - I have 70+ painted already and a bunch more aberrants to paint, plus acolytes / metamorphs with hand flamers. Not really into heavy weapon teams at this time lol. Maybe I'll do a unit of mortars, ugh
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Feb 11, 2019 20:00
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Sab669 posted:I still feel that way, man. First started playing 40K in 5th edition like a decade ago, took a long break and then came back a 1.25 years ago and I'm still just like, "Adeptus Whatnow?" If I had $1 every time if I said, "If you say so" during the last tournament I played in, I could've easily recouped my entry fee just from listening to people telling me the things their army do. Skimming this thread half the time I have no idea what acronyms mean. As a newbie, this is the biggest problem with 40k and GW in general. They (rightly) push the hobby as mostly about the collecting and painting, but learning the game itself is still so much harder than it needs to be. I will need to read and digest 3 rulebooks at a minimum to fully understand the powers and abilities that are available to me, and as BeerfortheBeerGod pointed out a couple pages ago some armies like Crimson Fists will require that plus 2 or 3 more resources to have the total ruleset. That takes time and practice in and of itself, but the fact that every opponent you play will also have at least one whole book of rules that they've read and digested to some degree which you have probably never even cracked the cover on just makes the game seem like both players doing a thing, chucking dice and then dictating what happens while the other player falls back on "sure, whatever you say." It makes me wonder how much money GW is leaving on the table by not having an easy to use app to address these issues. It seems like they're happy letting nerds spend almost $50+ for the rulebook plus a codex, but how many more players would they have if they lowered that barrier to entry and also improved gameplay in the process? Mikey Purp fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 20:01
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I wonder if Brood Brother Wyverns or Hellhounds would be a decent investment for anti-chaff duty. Plus, an IG detachment would have access to tank commander punisher cannons!
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Feb 11, 2019 20:03
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Groetgaffel posted:Then I just went Yeah that was pretty much my reaction as well. Then I realize I would doing that on the almost 20 guys and two dreads I have I went 
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Feb 11, 2019 20:03
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xtothez posted:I wonder if Brood Brother Wyverns or Hellhounds would be a decent investment for anti-chaff duty. Plus, an IG detachment would have access to tank commander punisher cannons! I do actually have two punisher leman russes and a vulture, hmm
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Feb 11, 2019 20:07
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xtothez posted:I wonder if Brood Brother Wyverns or Hellhounds would be a decent investment for anti-chaff duty. Plus, an IG detachment would have access to tank commander punisher cannons! In the other direction any larger GSC list of mine is probably going to have three Hive Tyrants and three Rippers, they’re just so good at clearing infantry and just being well-rounded tough threats.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:08
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Mikey Purp posted:...learning the game itself is still so much harder than it needs to be. I will need to read and digest 3 rulebooks at a minimum... Amen. This game appeals to nerds like me, as we tend to like fussing with details, but even so, they’ve definitely crossed the line into incomprehensibility. If they could make combat nearly as simple as AD&D, they would bring a LOT of people into the fold. Super-complex combat mechanics are this game’s greatest weakness. Way more of a barrier than painting the minis. Much, much, much more. Kinda-complex mechanics would be fine, because again — we’re mostly nerds so it’s fine — would be fine, but they go three steps past that. I guess the problem is having great variety from army to army without requiring complex rules.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:20
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Mikey Purp posted:As a newbie, this is the biggest problem with 40k and GW in general. They (rightly) push the hobby as mostly about the collecting and painting, but learning the game itself is still so much harder than it needs to be. I will need to read and digest 3 rulebooks at a minimum to fully understand the powers and abilities that are available to me, and as BeerfortheBeerGod pointed out a couple pages ago some armies like Crimson Fists will require that plus 2 or 3 more resources to have the total ruleset. To learn the BASICS of the game is a small 15 page, free pamphlet. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English-3.pdf This, of course doesn't include armies or data sheets in it. So you would need a codex OR..... Many of the starter sets (two forces) come with instructions on how to play through and understand how the game plays - in particular between those two forces but also explain the fundamentals of the game. I think the best ever was the old Battle for McCragge set which walked you through the entire process back in 4th edition. But the new stuff is pretty great as well. (Edit) I would also add though that 8th edition is one of the easiest versions of the game to learn and get into compared to previous editions. So there are some pretty significant improvements there.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:24
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Flashing Square posted:Amen. This game appeals to nerds like me, as we tend to like fussing with details, but even so, they’ve definitely crossed the line into incomprehensibility. If they could make combat nearly as simple as AD&D, they would bring a LOT of people into the fold. Super-complex combat mechanics are this game’s greatest weakness. Way more of a barrier than painting the minis. Much, much, much more. Kinda-complex mechanics would be fine, because again — we’re mostly nerds so it’s fine — would be fine, but they go three steps past that. I guess the problem is having great variety from army to army without requiring complex rules. Out of curiosity - have you played any previous editions?
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Feb 11, 2019 20:26
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After a while you get a good idea of what each army has, generally. If you ever have any question about any of your opponents units or rules you should absolutely spend a moment to ask before you proceed. Unless you’re in a tournament setting most people won’t have an issue going over things with you, and even at a tournament they still should unless it’s really basic stuff.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:28
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Ghost Hand posted:Out of curiosity - have you played any previous editions? Nope, just started a few months ago. Edit: I’m guessing it used to be more complex. Can’t even comprehend how people adopted it before, if that’s the case. Right now it’s very, very difficult to pick up, and I’m a smart guy. Flashing Square fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 20:31
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eSportseXpert posted:I just don't want to paint any more infantry than it already looks like I'm about to Friendly reminder for you and other folks painting a bunch of infantry: A good goon (dexefiend?) found an efficient assembly line and dipping paint method to crank out a bunch of infantry. The finished paint job quality is surprisingly great and takes a relatively very short time.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:35
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Flashing Square posted:Nope, just started a few months ago. It was WAY worse in previous editions. Not implying at all you aren't smart. The game has been significantly simplified from it's previous state. I cannot imagine how new people got into it on their own towards the end of 7th. My best recommendation is to play through it a few times with players who know how to play. It makes learning it much easier for me. I'll be honest though - I don't find it any more difficult to learn that say D&D. It's just a DIFFERENT way of thinking than D&D. If you have any questions I am happy to help out by the way.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:41
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Ghost Hand posted:To learn the BASICS of the game is a small 15 page, free pamphlet. Having never played before 8th, I can still appreciate that this edition is much better than it was. That being said, the ruleset has gotten progressively more complex even in the 7 or 8 months that I've been actively following 40k. Back to my first point, sure you can learn the BASICS from one book, but using just those rules is boring and doesn't really feel like a complete game to me. On top of that, it's actually pretty hard for a new player to even understand what they need to buy if they wanted all the rules in the first place. Most of my understanding of how core rulebooks, codices and CA works and what they are has actually come from this thread. It's really tough to figure that stuff out via their website. And I did start with a Dark Imperium box which includes the core rules book and minicodices for the SM and DG units. But what happens when I take my SM and go play someone's drukhari for the first time? I get torn to freaking shreds and I don't even know what I could do to better compete because I don't know most of their rules. I guess all I'm saying is that it feels bad to me that the current state of the game is that when I eventually play an army that I'm not familiar with at all, I have no real way to feel confident about it with out literally studying their list and rules ahead of time, and that GW doesn't even make that easy to do. Failing that, I could stop the game to learn the rules and look stuff up in my opponents codex while we play, but I imagine that would annoy most people and also triple amount of time that it takes to play. The problem is exacerbated if you choose a newb-friendly starter army like SM because everyone has seen you and knows what to expect while you're still in the dark. E: rereading this, I get that's it's more than a little whiney. I'm in a place now where I'm mainly over the hump, but I still think it's crazy that 40k is kind of the poster child for tabletop gaming while having such a high barrier to entry. An app has so much potential to fix a lot of those issues. E2: Seldom Posts summed up my thoughts in 2 sentences. That's what the last 6 paragraphs were trying get across. Mikey Purp fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 20:48
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Ghost Hand posted:It was WAY worse in previous editions. Not implying at all you aren't smart. The game has been significantly simplified from it's previous state. I cannot imagine how new people got into it on their own towards the end of 7th. I already loved minis games, but I refused to buy into 40k because I read the 7th edition rules and thought were some of the worst rules I'd ever read, in terms of needless complexity in particular. The simplification of 8th ed. was a big reason I bought in, since I already coveted the models. I would bet if they solved the bajillion armybooks problem, they'd bring in even more players.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:52
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Flashing Square posted:Nope, just started a few months ago. The big thing they did with 8th edition was focus on accessibility. I won't say it's significantly more or less complicated than previous editions, but where they did change in the beginning is make it easier to get the information quickly. Theoretically all you need to play the game is the core rules and the 15 page book. Everything else is either optional or an update, and none of those updates significantly impact the core rules. As much as I enjoyed bitching about the sheer volume of stuff GW puts out the core game itself is very accessible. I think where GW has failed is in maintaining that accessibility to new players. I've been playing 40K off and on since 1994. I own every rulebook in 8th edition. I obsess over math-hammering out combinations and exploring inefficiencies in the stats. Even then I barely know any of the rules because I don't play enough. I can handle the core rules just fine, but anything specific to certain armies (especially xenos) I probably don't know. If I played competitively I would get destroyed. I might start playing some tournaments just so I can get more experience with different armies. What matters, more than anything else, is whether or not you're having fun. Be familiar with the basic rules, be familiar with your army, trust your opponent, and enjoy yourself. Ultimately the rules are a framework so that you and your opponent(s) can have a good time. Don't focus on learning everything at once. Enjoy the core game, and then add on.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:56
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Ghost Hand posted:I'll be honest though - I don't find it any more difficult to learn that say D&D. It's just a DIFFERENT way of thinking than D&D. D&D is so much more simple, what. It doesn't matter what spells or class your party members are. Unless your GM is actively trying to kill your party then it largely doesn't matter what stats or spells a monster has. Everything you care about is right there on your sheet, or on the Grid / 2 pages following said grid for your Class. The rest is just role playing - aka making poo poo up on the spot. Warhams, it's like OK well this guy is in range of that guy so he gets this benefit. And also there's a strategem for these guys to use, too. But two models in this unit have different weapons so I need to roll their attacks separately (or with different dice), oh and you're in cover. Oh they have FNP too? OK Your turn.. Wait what do you mean you get to advance AND charge? You can just go on and on and on with the special "clauses". D&D either you have Advantage or you don't. Add your STR / DEX / Spell Mod to your roll and you're basically done. Not knowing your opponent's army's "gimmick" can be so unforgivably punishing - like the first time I ever played against Harlqueins in Kill Team, i wasn't expecting them to be able to charge 18" when the loving board is 22" wide. There is nothing so punishing for not being aware of it in D&D.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:00
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Even Killteam has so many strategems right out of a starter box that its overwhelming when you start playing, I think I'm getting better at just memorizing statlines and saves though.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:07
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Mikey Purp posted:Having never played before 8th, I can still appreciate that this edition is much better than it was. That being said, the ruleset has gotten progressively more complex even in the 7 or 8 months that I've been actively following 40k. I disagree that the core rules are boring. They might be underwhelming after you've played several games and want more, but I still remember the first time I played 40K with just the core rules and an index and it was a ton of fun. I feel like part of your problem is that you chose a weak army. You're right; Space Marines aren't terribly effective. GW has put a lot of effort into improving them but even now they're not great. As someone who made the genius decision to only play Primaris Marines I'm right there with you. You've also chosen as an example one of the more elegant and complicated armies with Drukhari, an army that relies on rules and stratagems which can easily catch an unaware opponent in a trap. So the army rules are a lot like the fluff. You're never going to feel confident in how to deal with something until you're familiar with it; that's not GW's fault. That's the nature of a deep game with multiple factions. The way to feel confident about your opponent's army is to play games and ask questions. Learn from experience. Figure out what you did wrong and change your tactics accordingly. Most opponents are happy to answer questions and help you learn about their army; it makes for a better game for both of you. Seldom Posts posted:I already loved minis games, but I refused to buy into 40k because I read the 7th edition rules and thought were some of the worst rules I'd ever read, in terms of needless complexity in particular. I agree that improving accessibility through something like a rules app would go a long way.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:11
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
I would imagine most hams would pay for a rules app that replaced armybooks. I would think that the cost of developing that app could be made back 100 fold.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:18
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Speaking from experience it also really helps to go into this hobby with a friend or friends, so you're all about on the same level (at least to start). Like all competitive games, your experience heavily factors into your chances for victory. It helps a lot to discuss having a few friendly learning games with players to start, so you can step through the game and discuss the possibilities (I still do this with experienced players when they want to try out new list builds). It's very likely you'll start to memorize enemy army stats just naturally through play, which starts speeding things up as you learn. When in doubt, always ask. Much like basketball, chess, etc. the game can be played on a variety of levels and you need to set your expectations based on where you're playing. If you're having a starting game with a friendly player you're in the best environment. Some LGS players don't really have the mind to "tone it down" for new players and might just stomp you unless you explain your goal ahead of time. PierreTheMime fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 21:19
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Ghost Hand posted:Oh hey! Congrats! I literally walked past you playing this game with this army.... Shoot, should have paid closer attention to my surroundings! Would have liked to say hi.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:48
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
This. Yep. What the OP described in their follow up is different than the game being hard to understand. I definitely feel like this game (40k) is easy to learn... but hard to master. Understanding exactly what any opponents army does is incredibly difficult and to a degree it SHOULD be. It speaks to how incredibly varied the game is. Every army SHOULD play differently or they don’t bother making the army (literally the original reason squats were removed was because they struggled to make them different from IG). Play the video game Starcraft and each race plays differently. Now make it so there’s not 3 races.., but 16-18. Guys who play Adepticon, LVO, NOVA... at the top tables, have literally been studying the game and it’s various armies and how they interact for YEARS to play at those levels. This is a different issue than getting into the game to begin with.
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Feb 11, 2019 21:57
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Sharkopath posted:Even Killteam has so many strategems right out of a starter box that its overwhelming when you start playing, I think I'm getting better at just memorizing statlines and saves though. The killteam manual encourages slowly building up to the advanced rules and the game plays perfectly fine without them.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:17
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Mikey Purp posted:Having never played before 8th, I can still appreciate that this edition is much better than it was. That being said, the ruleset has gotten progressively more complex even in the 7 or 8 months that I've been actively following 40k. Go watch some battle reports on YouTube. I've never played 40k in the flesh but after a year of using batreps as timewasters while at the gym or painting you realise it's not actually that complex. Also 40k is absolutely one of the easier mainsteam games to get into. You want crazy rules interactions go try Warmahordes or Infinity. They may be tighter rulesets but boy are they not easy to understand
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Feb 11, 2019 22:31
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:You're never going to feel confident in how to deal with something until you're familiar with it; that's not GW's fault. That's the nature of a deep game with multiple factions. Wisdom. For sure feel free to ask your opponent about their rules. People are chill. It’s not something like asking about your opponents cards in poker.
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Feb 11, 2019 22:41
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