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Prester Jane posted:only pointed out the most obvious difficulties and challenges my proposed effort would face- without actually contributing anything interesting or useful.  edit: uh I guess have my avatar as animal tax, his name is Snicklefritz Kash, registered quarterhorse, and he is a Good Boy
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Feb 13, 2019 06:06
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RottenK posted:nerds are radicalizing anyways, you might as well provide an alternative to the endless sea of screaming youtube nazis and pseudointellectual quacks like peterson and shapiro A lot of that is because what amounted to the 'left' pre-2016 literally wasn't trying at all and just assumed everyone under 30 would automatically pledge loyalty to the most milquetoast centrist platitudes, and with the slightest amount of pushback immediately ceded the entire medium to the shadow of the proto-chud. AOC plays League of Legends. Young nonwhite and queer people are more likely to play video games than white people in the same age range. Centrists act exactly like the right assuming that only the opinions and lifestyles of white men matter, and eagerly amplify the most regressive voices because they make a good boogeyman, all because it's not an accepted form of entertainment for bourgie white 'woke' people like loving Hamilton.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:06
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Voyager I posted:Speaking as a Jewish person, I'll go ahead and say that Omar was right as hell to be critical of the actions of the Israeli government and I didn't take offense to her language. Even though she's correct, language matters. You may not take offense, but the media is as usual letting the right frame the issue: anti-AIPAC = anti-Israel = anti-Semite. Similar to pro-life vs. pro-choice, the left must always use our own framing of the issue. She stepped into a trap that could've easily been avoided by just saying I'm not anti-Israel I'm anti-apartheid, anti-settler, anti-occupation. I mean, this is all bullshit really, but that's politics. e: by 'bullshit' I mean the need to constantly set the framing of an issue and playing gotcha with the media instead of speaking plainly Family Values fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 06:07
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Arist posted:Holy poo poo, take the L. You're being an rear end in a top hat for no reason. Your plan was bad and that poster was just pointing out why. So what you're saying is we shouldn't try to engage gamers because it will be hard? That we shouldn't try to persue expanding our base because we will face difficulties and obstacles while doing so?
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Feb 13, 2019 06:08
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Prester Jane posted:So what you're saying is we shouldn't try to engage Gamers because it will be hard? That we shouldn't try to persue expanding our base because we will face difficulties and obstacles while doing so? I'm saying there's better target markets than the one that catapulted the alt-right into prominence by being 70% chud.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:12
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Family Values posted:Even though she's correct, language matters. You may not take offense, but the media is as usual letting the right frame the issue: anti-AIPAC = anti-Israel = anti-Semite. This is literally the definition of bad-faith illegitimate criticism.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:15
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Arist posted:I'm saying there's better target markets than the one that catapulted the alt-right into prominence by being 70% chud. So we shouldn't even try then? We just cede the battlefield without making any attempt whatsoever? It'll be hard and a struggle and therefore we shouldn't even bother? Sorely tempted here to simply quote my earlier rant about cowardness masquerading as pragmatism being the antithesis of the American Spirit. Also gaming isn't actually 70% chud, however the voices that represent gaming are heavily child or chud-adjacent. Because no one has tried to engage Gamers on their own terms, rather than the left as simply screeched at them from the outside. As leftists we need to change that, and we have a golden opportunity to do so right now. gently caress I hate the modern something awful. Ill take the days of goons seriously talking about creating goon Island any day over this. At least those bastards were interested in actually doing something (as misguided and idiotic as goon island was) and having a discussion about how to overcome obstacles instead of simply throwing up their hands in surrender because something is hard. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 06:16
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Family Values posted:Even though she's correct, language matters. You may not take offense, but the media is as usual letting the right frame the issue: anti-AIPAC = anti-Israel = anti-Semite. Similar to pro-life vs. pro-choice, the left must always use our own framing of the issue. She stepped into a trap that could've easily been avoided by just saying I'm not anti-Israel I'm anti-apartheid, anti-settler, anti-occupation. I mean, this is all bullshit really, but that's politics. There's absolutely no framing and no language she could have used that wouldn't have led to the same outcome so she might as well speak plainly.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:17
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Prester Jane posted:So what you're saying is we shouldn't try to engage gamers because it will be hard? That we shouldn't try to persue expanding our base because we will face difficulties and obstacles while doing so? Have at it, if you want. But you can't be surprised that nobody is really chomping at the bit to go try and reason with/deprogram a minority of a minority of a minority of the population comprised of people who are by definition obsessed with stupid bullshit
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Feb 13, 2019 06:18
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Morbus posted:Have at it, if you want. But you can't be surprised that nobody is really chomping at the bit to go try and reason with/deprogram a minority of a minority of a minority of the population comprised of people who are by definition obsessed with stupid bullshit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmW0GhdDOvw Refresh my memory, isn't Jim Sterling a former goon? I'm not absolutely positive, but I rather strongly suspect that he is.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:22
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KillHour posted:McConnell is an extremely smart and effective politician. He wouldn't be doing this if it didn't have an upside. Even smart and effective politicians do dumb stuff sometimes though. Its not like the guy has a perfect success record. Sabotaging future attempts to make a GND by making it and the Dems look stupid might be his goal but that doesn't mean he is guaranteed to pull it off. If you're worried about his actions poisoning the GND among average voting Repubs then you're worried about nothing: they'll hate it no matter what and any critiques or "concerns" about it they have in general will be dishonest.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:22
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It's ridiculous to imply that AIPAC is specifically Jewish, anyway. It is primarily in service of US-Israeli relations but a lot of members happen to be Christian evangelicals and military contractors, since both groups have a vested interest in Israel continuing to exist and continuing to arm up. A question to ask reps is "have you taken AIPAC money and for what causes" if you want to see how deep it goes.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:23
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VitalSigns posted:This is literally the definition of bad-faith illegitimate criticism. It's a simple lovely fact that you have to be careful with phrasing because society developed with lovely stereotypes. I remember noticing how political cartoonists had to watch how they exaggerated Barack Obama in their caricatures. For Jewish people you have to be careful with phrasing because the idea of "Jewish money" is pretty ingrained in the Western psyche. I grew up in a orthodox Jewish family on the poverty level. The only thing that makes being poor worse is people insisting that you have secret money because of course you do. I promise you people who consider themselves good and woke will just throw that out because they've never actually thought it through.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:23
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JasonV posted:I'm starting to think billionaires don't do anything. After a certain point they just tell people they want things to happen, and then the dozens of people around them figure out how to manipulate that desire to their advantage all the while keeping the billionaire thinking he's the smart one and has done something brilliant by just making a vague request for it. Plus there's no consequences for the billionaire for failure because they have basic infinite resources. Elon Musk can wander around in his pajamas muttering about hyperloops and AI cars and all that poo poo and none of it will ever work but he gets the press kissing his rear end over his genius and when it fails it will all be forgotten and maybe one of of his dumb ideas will one day be a success based on the work of other people and the press will hail them as an icon of humanity. Schultz ran coffee stores, a company he didn't even start. Bezos runs a mail ordering delivery service. These people ain't finding the cure for cancer or discovering how to travel faster than the speed of light. They basically have the very specific skills of marketing and greed, which while are personally advantageous to them because of the way our civilization is set up, are pretty much the most useless and unhelpful skills that exist on the planet.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:25
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jojoinnit posted:It's a simple lovely fact that you have to be careful... Stop carrying water for the people who want to silence you and block policies you support
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Feb 13, 2019 06:25
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Lemming posted:Yes, I know the right wing outrage machine is 100% stupid nonsense. The "yikes" is over the idea that there can be no legitimate criticism over things that for some are uncomfortably close to actual anti semitic remarks. Again, not that I believe she was actually being anti semitic here, and I'm in no way giving any legitimacy to the right wing attacks. Her apology was not to those people, it was to people who had reasonable concerns. e: I just saw the "yikes" in the quote and assumed it was the other "yikes" directed at me. Oh well, my point stands. Maybe try making more than one-word replies all the time.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:25
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Even smart and effective politicians do dumb stuff sometimes though. Its not like the guy has a perfect success record. I think people are confusing "this is one of McConnell's clever little tricks to try and sabotage an idea" with "McConnell has outsmarted us all and will kill the GND!" He's trying a political stunt that has no major risk of backfiring on him so he can try and forge some weapons against the GND if the Democrats ever make a real push for it. Maybe it will work, hopefully it won't. Democrats will theoretically do counter moves. Politicians do this stuff all the time. Its like when the Dems were passing spending bills during the shutdown when they knew they wouldn't pass. They were trying to make the GOP look bad. It didn't really have an effect but it didn't cost them anything either. Its politics.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:26
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jojoinnit posted:For Jewish people you have to be careful with phrasing because the idea of "Jewish money" is pretty ingrained in the Western psyche. She didn't say the phrase you attributed to her in quotes, she said "AIPAC" not "Jewish".
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Feb 13, 2019 06:27
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Enkmar posted:Stop carrying water for the people who want to silence you and block policies you support I'm not sure what you think my point is but it was simply that you do have to watch how you phrase things with certain groups because of history. She wasn't wrong but she could absolutely have phrased it better and not given the right ammunition.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:28
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VitalSigns posted:She didn't say the phrase you attributed to her in quotes, she said "AIPAC" not "Jewish". I wasn't attributing it to her, that's just how I put it because it's 5.30am and I haven't managed to sleep yet.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:29
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Money in politics is already something liberals are trained to never think or talk about, and consider bringing it up to be a gauche non-sequitur. So of course it's not hard to believe it MUST be because of disingenuous antisemitism, because no one could ever have REAL concerns about it.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:30
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Prester Jane posted:So we shouldn't even try then? We just cede the battlefield without making any attempt whatsoever? It'll be hard and a struggle and therefore we shouldn't even bother? I think you have a point. if you spin the message the right way and point at activision and EA and the need for dev unions, its a start at least.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:30
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jojoinnit posted:I wasn't attributing it to her, that's just how I put it because it's 5.30am and I haven't managed to sleep yet. OK but if you have to swap out what she said and swap in completely different words in order to create bad phrasing, then her actual words were obviously not bad phrasing
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Feb 13, 2019 06:31
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STAC Goat posted:I think people are confusing "this is one of McConnell's clever little tricks to try and sabotage an idea" with "McConnell has outsmarted us all and will kill the GND!"
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Feb 13, 2019 06:31
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Just a reminder that McConnell pulled off the same stunt with a pointless senate vote on M4A. Most of the Dems simply voted present. No one cared, no one remembers. The only people that don't support M4A now that were in favor of it before are the Pods Save America guys.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:32
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jojoinnit posted:I'm not sure what you think my point is but it was simply that you do have to watch how you phrase things with certain groups because of history. She wasn't wrong but she could absolutely have phrased it better and not given the right ammunition. Honestly just stop, there's no point in saying things like this unless you want to silence criticism of how we support Israel and apartheid policy It's bullshit, you know and I know it
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Feb 13, 2019 06:33
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Prester Jane posted:So we shouldn't even try then? We just cede the battlefield without making any attempt whatsoever? It'll be hard and a struggle and therefore we shouldn't even bother? The way to get game companies to stop doing that bullshit is to stop buying games that use them, but that would require Gamers to stop buying the thing they literally base their identity around. You don't see why that would be a hard sell?
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Feb 13, 2019 06:34
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:How exactly do you expect to "engage Gamers on their own terms" in a way that will make them more leftist? Gamers already know that lootboxes and pay-to-win games are bullshit. *it is literally titled "CAAApitalism: The Successful Failure Of Videogames"
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Feb 13, 2019 06:36
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There are absolutely people pushing leftism in that space. Those people are doing important work. However, your proposal to convert all the gamers to socialists or whatever is fundamentally flawed because the very proposal you are putting forward just further plays into their consumerism. You made that original post in response to a post about layoffs but you sidestep the union issue entirely for a discussion of how the player is the one getting ripped off, maaaaan, and when you think about it it's really hosed up that we have to buy all this DLC and I just could not give less of a poo poo about that angle. Not just for all the serious labor issues that are constantly coming up, but because gamers already know about all that poo poo and already hate it. A lot of them even just blame the developers for it! You're centering the wrong people!
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Feb 13, 2019 06:41
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Family Values posted:Even though she's correct, language matters. You may not take offense, but the media is as usual letting the right frame the issue: anti-AIPAC = anti-Israel = anti-Semite. Similar to pro-life vs. pro-choice, the left must always use our own framing of the issue. She stepped into a trap that could've easily been avoided by just saying I'm not anti-Israel I'm anti-apartheid, anti-settler, anti-occupation. I mean, this is all bullshit really, but that's politics. Stop. Just stop. There's zero language that can be used to criticize Israel without the usual suspects screaming about antisemitism. It's just a loving hammer they use to derail any discussion of their war crimes.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:42
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Enkmar posted:Stop carrying water for the people who want to silence you and block policies you support Stop posting period if you think this is a smart and cool thing to start up.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:44
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Arist posted:There are absolutely people pushing leftism in that space. Those people are doing important work. However, your proposal to convert all the gamers to socialists or whatever is fundamentally flawed because the very proposal you are putting forward just further plays into their consumerism. My proposal is to push leftism in gaming spaces, I never made any statement whatsoever about converting every gamer to a socialist or anything like that. You're arguing in bad faith and the rest of your post isn't worth responding to.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:45
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Harik posted:Stop. Just stop. There's zero language that can be used to criticize Israel without the usual suspects screaming about antisemitism. It's just a loving hammer they use to derail any discussion of their war crimes. Nah, I'm only repeating (the gist of) what she herself said in her apology, which I think was pretty good. I like not watching Dems self-own.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:45
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Prester Jane posted:I literally posted a video by a prominent YouTube gamer who is doing exactly that. I invite you to scroll up and watch that Jimquisition video* to have every single question you just raised answered.  This guy certainly gives off the impression that the following 22 minutes will be insightful. I don't see why there is a messaging problem.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:45
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:How exactly do you expect to "engage Gamers on their own terms" in a way that will make them more leftist? Gamers already know that lootboxes and pay-to-win games are bullshit. by carefully spoonfeeding them all the underlying reasons of why their favorite hobby is being strangled and why the outrage about SJWs is bullshit. people like hbomberguy and shaun helped a decent amount of people stop being chuds PJ also posted a video by jim sterling, he can be grating but his latest videos are explicitly tying the lovely business practices of big videogame companies to capitalism
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Feb 13, 2019 06:46
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RottenK posted:by carefully spoonfeeding them all the underlying reasons of why their favorite hobby is being strangled and why the outrage about SJWs is bullshit. people like hbomberguy and shaun helped a decent amount of people stop being chuds
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Feb 13, 2019 06:48
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is pepsi ok posted:There's absolutely no framing and no language she could have used that wouldn't have led to the same outcome so she might as well speak plainly. That's the thing. This all is from quoting five words from a Diddy song about how it's all about the money DIRECTED TOWARDS AMERICAN POLITICIANS. She wasn't saying that all Jewish people are greedy, or Israel is greedy, or even that AIPAC is greedy. If you want to strip all the context of understanding out of everything and make the most simplistic take the best you can come up with is Jewish people are GIVING money to people. She's saying congress is greedy, not Jewish people. It's clear as loving day. So yeah, clearly you're correct that no framing or language would be allowed because if you can't bring up money in the context of money when it involves an Israeli lobbying group and you can't bring up money in the context of Jewish people ever regardless of any context then, well, that's that. It had zero to do with anti-semitism. It had to do with money. And that's why people are disappointed with her backing down. It's bullshit. It'd be no different than if a politician mocked how much of congress was taking pro-gun money and the NRA attacked them and they backed down and apologized. They bent and broke and they won't do it ever again.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:50
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Prester Jane posted:My proposal is to push leftism in gaming spaces, I never made any statement whatsoever about converting every gamer to a socialist or anything like that. You're arguing in bad faith and the rest of your post isn't worth responding to. It's really something else that you retreat to your fainting couch at a slight facetious misrepresentation of your argument (which was honestly just because I didn't want to scroll back to find your loving post to check your exact wording) while calling other leftists cowards and centrists and fake-apologizing for being absurdly hostile to people who agreed with you.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:50
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I miss Rudy.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:54
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Ego-bot posted:Just a reminder that McConnell pulled off the same stunt with a pointless senate vote on M4A. Most of the Dems simply voted present. No one cared, no one remembers. The only people that don't support M4A now that were in favor of it before are the Pods Save America guys. I don't remember this at all. Do you have a link?
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Feb 13, 2019 06:54
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