TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Darwinism: Jan 6, 2008

Arthil posted:

Where does that end, though? Do I think they should have thought less of Mearls long before now? Yes I do. And do I think he should probably expect more than just an apology from Mearls? drat right I do. But I'm not gonna crucify him over that. There are people already trying to paint me as being an enabler for my defense of MonsterEnvy, which is absolutely loving ridiculous.

From my view? The best way to change minds and encourage the community to grow, to be healthy and safe is to talk to people. Explain things in the best way you can, let them get all the facts. If in the end they've come to understand, that is great. If not... They're a lost cause. The way I see it, MonsterEnvy understands. He just doesn't say the things in the exact way people want.

Saying all of that, before anyone tries to pick it apart. None of that applies to the abusers. The abusers get a brick to the face.

But he explicitly did not understand. He was taking a position many people default to, and that position enables abusers. People here are very harsh, it is SA and also lots of people including myself have lost patience with people reciting the exact same platitudes that keep getting recited to help cover up misdeeds by allowing mealymouthed nonapologies to stand in for actual contrition and change.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 06:45

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:44

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

I admit to being pretty harsh on MonsterEnvy when they say this kind of (gross, terrible) poo poo. But I don't enjoy it.

It goes in the same category for me like failing a student. No I don't loving like it, but also no, that's wrong stop. No you can't redo the final, you're just wrong. Stop. You need to be an adult and admit when you're wrong.

I actually am a big old wibbly teddy bear, but I don't think society should let people say openly false, harmful and wrong statements without recourse. Society as a whole has to tell people when they say ignorant/stupid/enabling/racist/sexist/I'm going to destroy my slash key but you get the idea. Personally, I try to be pretty polite in the beginning, but eventually you just have to be blunt and honest and possibly repetitive. Not as punishment, but just so people actually learn something.

And, as has been said, MonsterEnvy has been doing this for five. God drat. Years. I want you to think about the amount of personal growth you've done in 5 years. Personally, I moved 3 times, changed a few jobs, got a nephew (and found out I kind of liked kids after all), visited 7 countries and went from some rando to being about to defend my PhD.

MonsterEnvy hasn't managed to learn anything.

(Also I don't just mean him, I do this to other people ; this is an example.)

# ? Feb 20, 2019 06:48

Arthil: Feb 17, 2012; A Beard of Constant Sorrow

PST posted:

So the new 'defend zak' has moved to reddit where 'Michelle' from his original defence blog post has suddenly created an account. I don't know Zak's writing style well enough to say if it's him (even with a photo it can still be him doing the writing) but the initial post was almost certainly done with him being involved. They seem mostly interested in defending him to the OSR types.

https://www.reddit.com/user/KingJanx

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/aqtolx/the_stickied_zak_thread/egognmb/?context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asgued/connie_from_i_hit_it_with_my_axe_re_zak_smith/

I think the whole "Yes, it really is me guys!" thing made me sick to my stomach.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 06:49

thefakenews: Oct 20, 2012

PST posted:

So the new 'defend zak' has moved to reddit where 'Michelle' from his original defence blog post has suddenly created an account. I don't know Zak's writing style well enough to say if it's him (even with a photo it can still be him doing the writing) but the initial post was almost certainly done with him being involved. They seem mostly interested in defending him to the OSR types.

https://www.reddit.com/user/KingJanx

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/aqtolx/the_stickied_zak_thread/egognmb/?context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asgued/connie_from_i_hit_it_with_my_axe_re_zak_smith/

I'm not an expert, and I am uncomfortable is leaping to the conclusion that Zak's defenders are fictional (and them being real doesn't help him much), but Zak has a particular habit of using dashes in his writing in the same way that those Reddit posts do.

Edit: since I'm doing this dumb speculation, Zak doesn't use semicolons much but those posts do.

thefakenews fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 06:58

Foolster41: Aug 2, 2013; "It's a non-speaking role"

Just-a-Ty
(Quoting KingJanx) " he's apologetic"
That's not anywhere in his statement.

KingJanx
He says "If I'd known there was something to apologize for, I would've immediately"
-------
B.S.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 07:26

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

thefakenews posted:

MonsterEnvy has an amazing, almost unique, ability to combine terrible opinions with a striking inability communicate, but Jesus Christ, the way some of y'all talk to him is legitimately uncomfortable to read.

He is absolutely wrong here, but there are a couple of posters who distinctly come off like they are doing it because they enjoy it, not just because they are mad at him.

I think it's more that they're tired of having this argument with him. Take a look at the old D&D 5e thread. This is the latest in a long line of discussions.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 07:59

thefakenews: Oct 20, 2012

Liquid Communism posted:

I think it's more that they're tired of having this argument with him. Take a look at the old D&D 5e thread. This is the latest in a long line of discussions.

I�m quite familiar with that thread and MonsterEnvy�s terrible posting history.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 08:08

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

I have argued with monsterenvy literally non stop since the opening of the 5e thread, and real talk leave him alone at this point. None of this poo poo is helping anyone, if his posting angers you that much hit the ignore button on him.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 08:09

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

MonsterEnvy could stand to post less but I think some goons are getting uncomfortably close to bullying. Please stop talking about him now.

Ettin fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 08:19

PONEYBOY: Jul 31, 2013

Thanks again to those who responded to my earlier post asking about the whole Zak S saga. While I doubt it�ll do anything to anyone�s bottom line, they away a bunch of communal D and D books, and bought a copy of blades in the dark as well as torchbearer to put in the communal campground library. If you guys are ever around central Vic and want to climb a few 20s and roll some dice afterwords let me know!

PONEYBOY fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 09:48

PST: Jul 5, 2012; If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Raggi at LotFP's statement

https://www.facebook.com/88524315885/posts/10156179503045886/

quote:

Jim here. Let's get this over with.

Do note that I have been advised by legal counsel to not comment about the content of statements released by various parties involved in the current situation.

Similarly, I have been advised by legal counsel that LotFP is responsible for the comments left on our pages, so we will have to be heavy-handed moderating comments about this matter. There's a whole internet out there for you to express your unfiltered opinions, please respect our situation concerning this matter in our spaces.

(thank loving christ for lawyers, eh?)

And something I would have thought could go without saying, but I have been advised to go ahead and state: Lamentations of the Flame Princess publications are purely fiction. There are many things our books portray imaginatively that are absolutely unacceptable in reality, including all forms of violence, which also includes sexual harassment and assault. Keep the bad things in make-believe, and the good in reality.

And now on to the business at hand:

1. All of Zak Smith's upcoming work with LotFP is canceled. We are not destroying stock or erasing things that have already been published (there isn't anything on this Earth that would make me a book burner), but should current stocks sell out, they will not be reprinted.

Breaking this out, and clarifying the grey areas:

2. Zak's financial interest is in Vornheim, Red & Pleasant Land, and Frostbitten & Mutilated, and that's it. He is not and has never been LotFP management and doesn't make decisions concerning books that he's not specifically credited on, and he doesn't have further financial involvement in the company beyond royalties from sales of just these three books.

3. Zak had some time ago received considerable advances for two new books. One was in quite late stages of development and was planned to be released in April, and we had been preparing another printing of Red & Pleasant Land. These of course are not moving forward. Zak's Ref book contributions will also not be happening. I think that's all that was on his docket for us, but if I've missed mentioning anything here, they're still canceled.

4. A new printing of Death Frost Doom, that has a considerable amount of Zak's work, is already at the printer and there's not much to be done about that. At this point I'm getting charged a near five-figure printing bill whether they deliver the books or send them straight in the landfill, and I'm not sending them to the landfill. His work on this one was done and paid for in early 2014 and he does not receive any royalties from sales of this book.

5. Zak is credited as editor of Veins of the Earth but the writing there is all Patrick. Zak's involvement in that project ended in 2015 and he was paid his fee at that time, and he does not receive any royalties from sales of this book.

6. We've got two full-time (including myself) employees and one part-time employee (who doesn't have another job), and investments in literally dozens of other Zak-free projects in various stages of completion. Many people are making royalties off of books that have nothing to do with Zak. Some people already have bailed from their upcoming projects. Some might still. But I plan on fulfilling all my current obligations and continuing to release for a long time to come a lot of things that uphold the LotFP standards of quality, intensity, and pure "What the hell were they thinking?"

And now a personal note...

I've talked to a lot of people this past week, people with different perspectives, from the deeply affected to my printer representative who doesn't know anybody involved. People who had all sorts of opinions on the matter, some favoring one side, some favoring the other. People I agreed with, and people I disagreed with.

You know what they all had in common? They were bummed out. They recognized this was a tragedy from top to bottom. Even the people who agreed with my course of action here, hell, even someone that thought I wasn't going far enough, recognized what we were losing, even while they said we needed to lose it.

But there are other people out there. People who don't think this is a tragic situation. There are people out there thrilled about how things have turned out. They're going to tell you they were right all along about things. And they'll be most helpful suggesting all the things that still need to be done.

You all need to keep your eyes out for these snakes slithering among us, feigning compassion when they once spat only cruelty, loving what this has done to us, ready to take advantage of the situation for themselves and further erode what we've all collectively built as a creative community.

Don't let them.

And one last thing. I'd like to thank Zak for all the work and support over the years. I am absolutely crushed that we cannot continue to collaborate.

I wasn't actually expecting him to ditch Zak going forwards, but it looks as of the OSR backlash has been pretty big and he's been increasingly seen as toxic for that community even before Mandy, Hannah, Vivka and Jennifer revealed his abuse.

Obviously he's made it all about him, and ends by thanking Zak, so he's still a wanker, but that will probably cut into Zak's future nerd-income a bit.

PST fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 11:55

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

lol "Big thanks to my buddy who was outed as a rapist and abuser, I'll miss you fam" sure is a hell of a flex.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:07

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

I especially enjoyed the snipe there at the end seemingly aimed at people who are glad that Zak was finally ousted after years of trying to get people to see him for what he is. His remarks about it being a "tragedy" seem largely aimed at the notion of not being able to sell Zak's poo poo anymore rather than like, the people who had to endure years of abuse at his hands while being enabled by industry figureheads including Raggi himself.

Not surprised Raggi manages to gently caress even this up, just disappointed.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:08

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Yeah. *sigh*

quote:

Lets get this over with

as well as pretty much the last half a dozen paragraphs.

The real tragedy here is Raggi being inconvenienced. :rolleyes:

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:10

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Pundit's being preemptively crazy and threatening to publish "the Mearls emails" if they replace the Consultants credit but remove him alongside Zak to "placate the Stalinists." As if they'd want to invite even more controversy. What an actual pathetic loser.

Personally, removing the credits feels more like rear end-covering and whitewashing than opprobrium.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:14

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

MollyMetroid posted:

bedlamdan and monsterenvy and plutonis are all posting in this very thread though

I remember playing on your game. I don't see why the need to be snippy

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:15

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

Goons are snakes, pass it on.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:18

PST: Jul 5, 2012; If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

That Old Tree posted:

Pundit's being preemptively crazy and threatening to publish "the Mearls emails" if they replace the Consultants credit but remove him alongside Zak to "placate the Stalinists." As if they'd want to invite even more controversy. What an actual pathetic loser.

Personally, removing the credits feels more like rear end-covering and whitewashing than opprobrium.

I think Tarnowski knows it won't happen, so this is just him posturing and a whole new round of 'look at me, I have super sekret information' because he's as much of a narcissist as Zak.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:21

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

90s Cringe Rock posted:

Goons are snakes, pass it on.

I think we are mostly Millennials, yes.

PST posted:

I think Tarnowski knows it won't happen, so this is just him posturing and a whole new round of 'look at me, I have super sekret information' because he's as much of a narcissist as Zak.

Probably, but I never discount the possibility that he's legitimately stupid instead of just pretending.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:24

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

It's not stupid. It'll work exactly as he's intending it to where in the end his name stays in the product and the waters are further muddied about who did what with whom.

Right now he gets to play tough guy by talking about emails and daring WotC to say "produce them, then", which they certainly won't because there's very much a chance that said emails exist and show that bad/dumb poo poo happened.

Next year the message to the general public will be "they looked into all that and my name's still there so clearly I did nothing wrong".

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 12:38

DigitalRaven: Oct 9, 2012

90s Cringe Rock posted:

Goonssss are ssssssssssnakes, passsssssssssss it on.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 13:28

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Tarnowski still uses his consultant role to claim credit for "helping make" 5e in his Twitter profile. He's a fragile ego-monster and WotC downplaying Zak's importance is already hurting him by proxy. I'm not surprised he's lashing out like a child.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 13:33

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

The irony being that the people who hate him and the people who hate Mearls want him to come out with his blackmail material.
The only people who don't are those who want to maintain this fragile link between him and D&D to keep 5e 'legitimate'.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 13:41

Desiden: Mar 13, 2016; Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

Wow, that Raggi "apology" is full of crappy wank, but its still leagues better than I ever expected it to be, just by dumping Zak.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 14:08

LongDarkNight: Oct 25, 2010; It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.; Oven Wrangler

That Old Tree posted:

Pundit's being preemptively crazy and threatening to publish "the Mearls emails" if they replace the Consultants credit but remove him alongside Zak to "placate the Stalinists." As if they'd want to invite even more controversy. What an actual pathetic loser.

Personally, removing the credits feels more like rear end-covering and whitewashing than opprobrium.

If Pundit releases secret emails and betrays Mearls after Mearls betrayed Cook I think I might die laughing.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 14:31

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

You just know that Pundit's emails are going to be about how he wanted THAC-0 back and Mearls didn't and that's the smoking gun or something

# ? Feb 20, 2019 14:33

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Sidestep posted:

After talking with Jaym a bit, she said it was cool to let you folks know her response to the invite.

"I will join once I get some energy to deal with new places. (Yay social anxiety.)"

Sooner or later, she will poke her head in and add her voice.

This is an important first step in receiving the eagerly anticipated Green Ronin Timeline.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 14:34

Barudak: May 7, 2007

Burn all of 5e to the ground, then please hire someone qualified and not a horrible person or barring that just not a horrible person.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:03

PST: Jul 5, 2012; If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

To: Mearls
From: Pundit
Subject: Smoking a mix of Perique, Virginia and Dark Fired Kentucky

Listen Mike, i told you that bards must, simply must have to start as a fighter, the community I am in full and total control over are already baying for blood over that stupid idea of having a female fighter picture, you can't go and keep adding in this modern nonsense.

WE WILL RUIN YOU

Also when are you sending the photographer for my inside cover picture on the book?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:09

PST: Jul 5, 2012; If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Bedlamdan posted:

This is an important first step in receiving the eagerly anticipated Green Ronin Timeline.

How about you gently caress right off with that?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:09

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

One of Zak's sockpuppets in those reddit threads is trying to use BDSM to justify his actions, which is loving pissing me off. "If she hated being choked she would have said something then!!!" is completely monstrous, absolutely abysmal. As someone getting into BDSM this poo poo is exactly the last thing BDSM needs. gently caress!

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:10

Sidestep: May 16, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

This is an important first step in receiving the eagerly anticipated Green Ronin Timeline.

Wrong hook, wrong pond.

You can gently caress right off.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:12

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Sidestep posted:

Wrong hook, wrong pond.

You can gently caress right off.

What? I don't think there's any problem with criticizing Suleiman or how Green Ronin handled him, that's sort of been in keeping with the thread's attitude previously. I also don't see any reason for Jaym to want to defend or justify him, so I don't see that being a problem either.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:21

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

That Old Tree posted:

Pundit's being preemptively crazy and threatening to publish "the Mearls emails" if they replace the Consultants credit but remove him alongside Zak to "placate the Stalinists." As if they'd want to invite even more controversy. What an actual pathetic loser.

Pundit taking down Mearls via the sharing of private emails would be the most 2019 thing that could possibly happen, tbh.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:23

Warthur: May 2, 2004

Bedlamdan posted:

What? I don't think there's any problem with criticizing Suleiman or how Green Ronin handled him, that's sort of been in keeping with the thread's attitude previously. I also don't see any reason for Jaym to want to defend or justify him, so I don't see that being a problem either.

The Green Ronin timeline isn't Jaym's responsibility to produce, and you salivating over the opportunity to hassle a new poster over it - one who's mentioned social anxiety at that - is gross.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:28

Sidestep: May 16, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

What? I don't think there's any problem with criticizing Suleiman or how Green Ronin handled him, that's sort of been in keeping with the thread's attitude previously. I also don't see any reason for Jaym to want to defend or justify him, so I don't see that being a problem either.

I see your rap sheet and your red text. I will give you the benefit of the doubt this one time and engage. Jaym is a freelancer and has zero to do with management decisions at Green Ronin. She has done spec work for them and may continue to do so. Their mishandling of the situation is not on her.

As for her part, let me point out the relevant part of her statement.

"Unaware that there were actual allegations against this friend, I pushed back and did significant harm to the discussion. For that, I am deeply sorry, and have worked to learn from the situation to avoid such mistakes in the future. "

So you can keep your opinions on the management there separate from Jaym

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:31

Barudak: May 7, 2007

dwarf74 posted:

Pundit taking down Mearls via the sharing of private emails would be the most 2019 thing that could possibly happen, tbh.

That quote from Godzilla of "Let them fight" is all thats playing in my head

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:31

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Warthur posted:

The Green Ronin timeline isn't Jaym's responsibility to produce, and you salivating over the opportunity to hassle a new poster over it - one who's mentioned social anxiety at that - is gross.

I was being facetious, the timeline itself is largely the responsibility of whoever the hell is actually running Green Ronin. I don't know who, exactly. Nicole Lindroos, at this point?

With that said, I can't be the only one who wants to know what the hell happened there, and whether or not people who actually know what happened are willing to give their take on it.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:37

Sage Genesis: Aug 14, 2014; OG Murderhobo

LongDarkNight posted:

If Pundit releases secret emails and betrays Mearls after Mearls betrayed Cook I think I might die laughing.

I think it's like a Sith Lord/Apprentice thing by this point?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 15:50

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:44

Free Gratis: Apr 17, 2002; Karate Jazz Wolf

I said it earlier in the thread, but I believe Holden is sincere in his efforts towards driving out the muck from the industry. Where he absolutely fails is when it comes to Morke�s actions. He needs to own the fact that his own name will be caught in the collateral when Morke�s victims speak about their experiences. He�s said that Morke was is the wrong and that he was in a position to do the right thing and he didn�t. That�s pretty much where he needs to begin and end. He needs to own it and stop trying to deflect to Rich Thomas or Green Ronin�s misdeeds. He especially needs to stop painting Morke�s victims as stalkers when his name gets brought up because that poo poo is straight out of Zak�s playbook.

On the flip side, maybe Rich Thomas SHOULD get called to task. There�s a good chance he also knew about Morke�s behavior and Olivia Hill�s account of her treatment towards the end of her OPP run is concerning.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 16:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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