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Randarkman posted:No. Stalin would be worse. Are you insane? stalin's regime finally fixed the constant famines soviet states had for centuries. maduro's regime led to a widespread famine that's been going on for a few years now. i guess it depends which side of the famine you sit on?
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Feb 21, 2019 09:06
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Truga posted:stalin's regime finally fixed the constant famines soviet states had for centuries. maduro's regime led to a widespread famine that's been going on for a few years now. Finally came for many people before fixed did. The PSUV is failing to even feed the cities. What is your point.
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Feb 21, 2019 09:13
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Randarkman posted:No. Stalin would be worse. Are you insane? Stalin was an absolute monster, I won't argue with you there. But looking at it solely from the perspective of providing your citizens with food, shelter and medicine, the USSR under Stalin did infinitely better than Venezuela under Maduro even accounting for the Ukrainian famine and WWII. e: You know what, I'm gonna admit that I can't back up these claims with any hard data. I was just looking around now, and it's hard as gently caress to get reliable stats on stuff like food security and general welfare for both the USSR 1930-1950 and Venezuela 2013-2018. But the data there is does show tremendous improvements in stuff like life expectancy, child mortality and literacy in the USSR between 1920 and 1960. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 09:19
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Cease to Hope posted:as i understand it, the psuv under maduro hasn't done a good job of balancing capital reinvestment and spending the revenue on other things. it's not excessive capital investment that is reducing food expenditure, but instead between one kind of petrodollar consumption and another investment has fallen, even
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Feb 21, 2019 09:25
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ronya posted:it's not excessive capital investment that is reducing food expenditure, but instead between one kind of petrodollar consumption and another i was under the impression that it was insufficient capital investment, not excessive.
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Feb 21, 2019 09:28
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Truga posted:stalin's regime finally fixed the constant famines soviet states had for centuries Aside from the fact that "soviet states" absolutely did not exist for centuries, the famines of 19th century Russia had nothing on post civil war famine of 1921 and Stalin's collectivisation gently caress up of 1930s in terms of scope and deaths. I don't think that current Venezuela regime tightening its grip further would lead to anything but even more refugees and disaster.
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Feb 21, 2019 09:42
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Yeah, I want to be really clear that I am not saying that Maduro establishing a iron-fisted dictatorship and the PSUV eradicating all competing social institutions would somehow improve Venezuela. Only that, if you want to establish a "socialist economy" you're better off going all out and taking complete control of all industry rather than, y'know, instituting some half-measures, appointing some relatives and yes-men as CEOs and calling it a day.
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Feb 21, 2019 09:50
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Cease to Hope posted:i was under the impression that it was insufficient capital investment, not excessive. Venezuela has insufficient capital expenditure but the Soviet system suppressed consumption for more capital expenditure There are some concrete ideological differences here - the Stalinist bargain was to suppress consumption to fund investment (particularly in heavy industry). Specifically formalized in Grigory Feldman's two-sector model. "Production of the means of production is a necessary condition for the advancement of socialist production". The Soviet suppression of consumption had a consciously Marxist outlook. Eventually the Soviet adventure did reach a point where there was excessive capital investment, but that's another story but Venezuela has had the opposite approach: suppress capital expenditure yet further, and fund consumption for immediate poverty relief. This was intrinsic to Chavismo, at least as far as Chavismo can be said to have an ideological core - e.g. the choice to embrace the reframing of neoliberal social expenditure as "social investment". It isn't what you or I would understand as investment, in the conventional sense of generating a positive time-discounted return on expenditure - but the government understood it to be a kind of investment. At the same time the Chavez government was essentially indifferent to falling FDI and the absence of domestic capital investment to replace it. Which is, I think, the problem with suggesting more expropriation - the Chavez government has been disinterested in what it has seized. What would it do with more? This was always a struggle over the means of consumption - on what the fountain of petrodollars should be spent on - rather than the means of production.
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Feb 21, 2019 10:58
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Truga posted:stalin's regime finally fixed the constant famines soviet states had for centuries. maduro's regime led to a widespread famine that's been going on for a few years now. I'd side with any leader that hasn't literally slaughtered millions of their citizens
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Feb 21, 2019 13:53
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yeah but we were talking about the food that time. just to be clear if it's not obvious, i'm not rooting for stalin here
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Feb 21, 2019 13:57
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zapplez posted:I'd side with any leader that hasn't literally slaughtered millions of their citizens I guess famines don't count if its the 'great depression' and your leaders are capitalists. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2019 15:49
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Truga posted:just to be clear if it's not obvious, i'm not rooting for stalin here So you’re a big hitler fan.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:01
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I guess famines don't count if its the 'great depression' and your leaders are capitalists. Holy poo poo what are you talking about. The Great Depression is in no way even remotely comparable to the atrocities of soviet russia. This thread is getting more and more trolly by the loving second.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:06
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The Great Depression was p. bad
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Feb 21, 2019 16:10
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There's plenty of people itt that I disagree with on political or practical grounds, who I still engage with because there is at least an honest attempt at discussion. ...and then there's capslock.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:14
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's the context to consider: you fell for the Maduro elections line, and owned up to it, and have learned. That's genuinely really great of you. Where did you hear it from? Why do people keep coming to the thread making the same mistakes? I am examining this fwiw
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Feb 21, 2019 16:29
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fatherboxx posted:Aside from the fact that "soviet states" absolutely did not exist for centuries, the famines of 19th century Russia had nothing on post civil war famine of 1921 and Stalin's collectivisation gently caress up of 1930s in terms of scope and deaths. Idk why we're talking about Stalin but nah pretty sure the famines under the czars were just as bad. The centuries comment obviously refers to the fact that the region of the world in question had constantly repeating famines due to weather and difficulty of agriculture in that soil. Russia and Venezuela are totally different countries with totally different contexts though idk how comparing 1917 Russia to 2019 Venezuela matters really. quote:In the 17th century, Russia experienced the famine of 1601–1603, believed to be its worst as it may have killed 2 million people (1/3 of the population). e: a famine was a huge reason why there was even an overthrow of the czars in the first place Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 16:31
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Moridin920 posted:Idk why were talking about Stalin but nah pretty sure the famines under the czars were just as bad. I no longer have a copy but the book "Late Victorian Holocausts" was an interesting review of famines in that period. Tied into El Nino possibly. Late Victorian Holocausts https://g.co/kgs/mzAchc
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Feb 21, 2019 16:34
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Also fwiw there was a revolution and a civil war so that had some bad effects wrt food harvests and land use. Re the dust bowl, people weren't dying in droves afaik so there's that. Plenty of other famines caused by the market though (Ireland). Dunno what relevance to VZ though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2019 16:38
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Hey guys remember about that block chain PETRO COIN or whatever it's called, that was a giant joke and what happened to it now? TOTALLY STARTED BY THE IMPERIALIST USA 
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Feb 21, 2019 16:54
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Moridin920 posted:Also fwiw there was a revolution and a civil war so that had some bad effects wrt food harvests and land use. It has nothing to do with Venezuela but a few posters keep bringing up any faults of US history as somehow this means Venezuela's corrupt government is without fault.
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Feb 21, 2019 17:04
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So it looks like the amnesty bill Guaido is pushing has stalled in the NA It‘s basically a get out of jail free card for anyone in the military that helps Guaido’s coup. Whole lot of the NA is upset because it don’t put clear limits on what or how much can be forgiven, and HRW came out against it.
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Feb 21, 2019 18:05
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Maduro just announced the closure of the border with Brazil starting tonight at 8:00 PM, and said that he's also considering closing the border with Colombia. Because he's already closed the border with the the ABC islands and Brazil, I expect that he'll eventually order the closure of the Colombia border, and I suspect that he's hesitating given the volume of traffic that the border sees. uninterrupted posted:So it looks like the amnesty bill Guaido is pushing has stalled in the NA I object to the use of the word "coup", but yes, the bill as it is worded right now is really vague. It grants amnesty "to all" regime officials who collaborate with the restoration of democracy as per articles 333 and 350 of the Constitution. To get amnesty, though, you'd have to present your case before a judge. The reason why Human Rights Watch suggested that the bill be amended is because it considers that the current wording would allow regime officials who have committed "gross human rights violations" to get away from justice: quote:“The vague and open-ended provisions in the bill could effectively grant blanket impunity to officials responsible for serious human rights abuses,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Any amnesty that guarantees impunity by absolving government and military officials responsible for the most serious human rights violations is incompatible with Venezuela’s international obligations.” EDIT: A convoy of volunteers headed by Juan Guaido left Caracas earlier this morning for Cucuta. The National Guard is setting up roadblocks along the way to stop them from getting there. https://twitter.com/ConflictsW/status/1098634441193340928 https://twitter.com/EfectoCocuyo/status/1098634492393242624 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 18:23
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I guess famines don't count if its the 'economic war' and your leaders are socialists
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Feb 21, 2019 19:01
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Okay forget everything else, someone tell me about these sick statues above the tunnel entrance.
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Feb 21, 2019 19:04
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Discendo Vox posted:Okay forget everything else, someone tell me about these sick statues above the tunnel entrance. Ha! I think they are (from left to right): Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 19:13
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Chuck Boone posted:Ha! I think the one on the left is Jose Antonio Paez. He's got the mustache and the Presidential sash. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 19:43
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https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1098201128540561410
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Feb 21, 2019 19:58
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Literally last week's news:
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Feb 21, 2019 20:10
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I still don't get the bridge thing. Yes, the bridge was never opened. Yes, there are barriers on it that the Colombians put up (because the bridge was closed). Also, the Venezuelan authorities put up the three cargo containers on their side, anticipating that the Colombians would take down their barriers to allow the aid in. The placement of the cargo containers was the story. EDIT: This right here: quote:Yes, Maduro ordered the containers be put there, and no, he does not want international aid coming in through that corridor. He maintains there is no food shortage in Venezuela, despite numerous reports to the contrary, including from Human Rights Watch. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 20:14
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Chuck Boone posted:I still don't get the bridge thing. The stories said the bridge was closed by Maduro, yet, the bridge was never open. That’s the whole story.
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Feb 21, 2019 20:16
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Ok so I counted and Guaido has one more day to announce new elections before being in violation of his own tortured interpretation of the constitution. I wonder if he’ll make a statement addressing it or just keep trying to seize power.
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Feb 21, 2019 20:19
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uninterrupted posted:The stories said the bridge was closed by Maduro, yet, the bridge was never open. This is extremely pedantic. Why do you think that Maduro ordered those cargo containers placed across the bridge?
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Feb 21, 2019 20:19
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dublish posted:Literally last week's news: I am reminding you of what a failure this all is.
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Feb 21, 2019 20:19
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uninterrupted posted:Ok so I counted and Guaido has one more day to announce new elections before being in violation of his own tortured interpretation of the constitution. I apologize to the rest of the thread for being so repetitive, but here I go again: Guaido cannot call the election. Only the Consejo Nacional Electoral can call the election. The Consejo Nacional Electoral is a pillar of the regime, which is why it has not and will not call the election.
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Feb 21, 2019 20:20
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Chuck Boone posted:This is extremely pedantic. Because an imperial regime known for using food aid to smuggle weapons into countries it destroys has announced it will pass food aid through the bridge? Would you accept a food delivery from Elliot Abrams if it showed up at your doorstep? At the very least there should be customs agents, inspection of the aid, etc before the border is opened. Back to your initial question, what confused you about the story?
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Feb 21, 2019 20:33
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https://twitter.com/MikeShepard4/status/1098666458979151872
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Feb 21, 2019 20:36
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uninterrupted posted:Because an imperial regime known for using food aid to smuggle weapons into countries it destroys has announced it will pass food aid through the bridge? Would you accept a food delivery from Elliot Abrams if it showed up at your doorstep? ... so Maduro put the cargo containers to... block the bridge? Which is precisely what the story was. I wasn't confused by the story at all. I was confused by some people's reaction: "Actually, the bridge was never opened  " as if that somehow negates the placement of the containers which, as you agree, was done to block the bridge when it was opened to allow the aid transport. Well, "confused" might be the wrong word, given how the debate on this issue has developed. "Disappointed" or "saddened" might be better.
Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 20:38
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Chuck Boone posted:I still don't get the bridge thing. Also also, Maduro sent armed soldiers to make sure the barricades remain in place. Triple also, Maduro has already closed the border with Brazil and the ABC Islands and is apparently considering closing the border with Colombia as well. Quadruple also, Delcy Rodríguez has claimed that the food is "poisoned" and described it as "biological weapon", so the location clearly isn't the issue. beer_war fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 20:39
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Chuck Boone posted:I apologize to the rest of the thread for being so repetitive, but here I go again: seems like a fundamental flaw in the constitution then, or at least in the "this counts as abandonment" interpretation vs. actual physical abandonment
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Feb 21, 2019 20:45
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