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OhFunny posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-usa/u-s-palestinian-mission-to-merge-with-israel-embassy-on-monday-idUSKCN1QL00X?il=0 There's a separate thread for Israel/Palestine news and analysis.
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Mar 4, 2019 02:27
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It is also absurd we don’t get to discuss it in this thread because a bunch of paid shills of Israel’s internet army will poo poo it up. Or people brought on nationalist/co-religionist propaganda tours funded by Israel. That or fuckheads who basically have a white nationalist or neocolonial view. Excellent company to keep.
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Mar 4, 2019 02:37
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Coldwar timewarp posted:It is also absurd we don’t get to discuss it in this thread because a bunch of paid shills of Israel’s internet army will poo poo it up. Or people brought on nationalist/co-religionist propaganda tours funded by Israel. That or fuckheads who basically have a white nationalist or neocolonial view. Excellent company to keep. it also tends to be so busy that it overwhelms any other news, and any non-I/P topic quickly gets derailed when someone posts (often questionably important) comments from Israeli authorities.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:23
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Coldwar timewarp posted:It is also absurd we don’t get to discuss it in this thread because a bunch of paid shills of Israel’s internet army will poo poo it up. Or people brought on nationalist/co-religionist propaganda tours funded by Israel. That or fuckheads who basically have a white nationalist or neocolonial view. Excellent company to keep. It's not absurd, it's just such a big topic that it requires it's own thread.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:34
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OctaMurk posted:It's not absurd, it's just such a big topic that it requires it's own thread. As opposed to Syria? Yemen? India/Pakistan? They all deserve their own threads, but we get rid of Syrian or Iranian chauvinists when they pop up, but allow Israeli chauvinists a platform indefinitely.
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Mar 4, 2019 05:18
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Coldwar timewarp posted:As opposed to Syria? Yemen? India/Pakistan? They all deserve their own threads, but we get rid of Syrian or Iranian chauvinists when they pop up, but allow Israeli chauvinists a platform indefinitely. Why don't you ask in QCS rather than in this thread, where nobody particularly has the power to do anything about it anyway?
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Mar 4, 2019 05:53
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Coldwar timewarp posted:As opposed to Syria? Yemen? India/Pakistan? They all deserve their own threads, but we get rid of Syrian or Iranian chauvinists when they pop up, but allow Israeli chauvinists a platform indefinitely. Hey, if you want to make a dedicated thread for those countries, just like someone did a week ago for India and Pakistan no one's stopping you. The only reason they're all lumped together now is because a general thread was created to discuss the Arab Spring, and once a megathread gets started it never ever dies, hoovering up every vaguely related subject in order to sustain itself long after the initial events end.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:09
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Grouchio posted:Where's a good starting point to read Algerian history? The Independence War? The French conquest of the 1830s? Before that? Start with the Gaetuli, Phoenicians, Garamantes, and Numidians, continue with the Romans, follow on with the Vandals and Alans, and then you arrive at the Umeyyad conquests.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:07
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Main Paineframe posted:Hey, if you want to make a dedicated thread for those countries, just like someone did a week ago for India and Pakistan no one's stopping you. The only reason they're all lumped together now is because a general thread was created to discuss the Arab Spring, and once a megathread gets started it never ever dies, hoovering up every vaguely related subject in order to sustain itself long after the initial events end. Indeed. If there’s support for breaking this thread up into regional-specific threads that is fine. You are also free to make a specific thread about Yemen or Syria.
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Mar 4, 2019 14:26
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How shocking, Amerikkkans want to balkanize the thread about the middle East
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Mar 4, 2019 16:45
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Squalid posted:I’m not hugely sympathetic for Kashmiri separatists for the reason you’ve described svenkatesh but you are coming off as a deranged Hindutva nationalist right now, it’s not helping your argument. Almost everyone* in Indian Kashmir is a separatist. I spent about a month in Indian Kashmir in 2009 and made it a part of my travels to ask everyone about their views on India and independence. Literally no one I spoke to wanted to be a part of India. Also no one had any idea how that would come about. One or two people were sympathetic to Pakistan but everyone wanted independence. At the same time, Indian popular culture is consumed en masse. Views on independence are essentially "inshallah it will happen." One thing that isn't covered outside of Kashmir is the non-stop brutality of the police forces. Young Indian conscripts are sent to Kashmir and comprise about 10% of the population. There's checkpoints and constant abuse of citizens and weekly murder/rapes that are essentially attributable to soldiers without any justice. I had my own vehicle commandeered on a few occasions. A friend of mine did human rights work for nearly a decade there and left with some severe PTSD. My own stories and experiences in no way come close to what my friend heard and saw. None of this is to belittle or in anyway justify the violence in the 80s but to express how unavoidable the presence of occupation is in the valley and how little - or hell, none - of the human rights abuses get reported to the rest of the world. *I suspect nearly everyone I talked to was Muslim. Edit: I really do suggest that people visit, though maybe not pick the winter like I did. guidoanselmi fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 01:39
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An independent Kashmir is a pipe dream. The area is far too strategically important to stay important. Consider that it is basically the quadripoint of four larger countries, namely: Afghanistan, China, India, and Pakistan. Even if you obtained the impossible and got India and Pakistan to recognize its independence and agree to leave it alone, then you'd get China pointing out that it has been an integral part of China for thousands of millennia, just like Tibet, and therefore it is high time for it to be reunited with its motherland.
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Mar 6, 2019 08:47
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sometimes places like that are made independent just to calm down tensions, and noone invades because their independence is guaranteed by everyone else. But...yeah, seems unlikely.
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Mar 6, 2019 09:31
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I'm just a casual observer but it seems like a big problem is that no one wants to fight China to maintain someone's independence.
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Mar 6, 2019 09:33
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Cat Mattress posted:Even if you obtained the impossible and got India and Pakistan to recognize its independence and agree to leave it alone, then you'd get China pointing out that it has been an integral part of China for thousands of millennia, just like Tibet, and therefore it is high time for it to be reunited with its motherland. China only really cares about personally controlling the literally uninhabitable Aksai Chin area, and the bit that Pakistan ceded to them in the 60s, as a matter of strategic importance. They'd of course
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Mar 6, 2019 09:51
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BattleMaster posted:I'm just a casual observer but it seems like a big problem is that no one wants to fight China to maintain someone's independence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgLg9zQH3vU&t=127s Basically it's a noble thought, but only when it comes to smacking down someone like Serbia.
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Mar 6, 2019 12:34
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guidoanselmi posted:Almost everyone* in Indian Kashmir is a separatist. I spent about a month in Indian Kashmir in 2009 and made it a part of my travels to ask everyone about their views on India and independence. Literally no one I spoke to wanted to be a part of India. Also no one had any idea how that would come about. One or two people were sympathetic to Pakistan but everyone wanted independence. At the same time, Indian popular culture is consumed en masse. Views on independence are essentially "inshallah it will happen." I remember the thread you made after your trip! You had a lot of good pictures. I'm no expert but probably that thread and the resulting discussion is responsible for most of what I know about Kashmir, at least the little I remember. I'm not surprised at the brutality Kashmiris are treated with, nor that they would want independence. I don't blame everyone for what happened in the past either, most would have almost certainly been bystanders. However I'm pretty sure that the same organizations who orchestrated the ethnic cleansing of the eighties and nineties would be who end up running an independent Kashmir. I'm not sure if that's a worse outcome than the status quo, but certainly it makes it hard to feel supportive for their goals and methods. I assume you were just in the Kashmir valley? I suspect if you were to ask about independence in Jammu and Ladakh you would get a different response. I'm already outside my comfort zone on these issues which I don't understand well so I don't really want to take a strong position. Mostly I just want Pakistan and India to stop killing each other and waving nukes around over poo poo that is ultimately of little practical consequence to either.
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Mar 6, 2019 17:53
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Of course most people now living in Kashmir are anti-India. The Kashmiri Pundits were genocided in the 90s by the Muslims.
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Mar 7, 2019 03:18
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svenkatesh posted:Of course most people now living in Kashmir are anti-India. The Kashmiri Pundits were genocided in the 90s by the Muslims. You don't usually get this particular brand of Modi tabloid nonsense from southerners, but the Pandits weren't genocided. Not that the reality of their existence is THAT much better. I usually go with the highest end estimates of 2000 murders, but pretty much only people trying to find a reason to burn the local mosque use the word genocide. Like, my general philosophy is not to quibble too hard about exact terminology when it comes to whether something was a massacre/ethnic cleansing/genocide. But at this point the Pandit situation has been the excuse to ethnically cleanse more people than died in the violence and claiming they all died is a convenient excuse to forget the way Modi actually fuckin treats em.
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Mar 7, 2019 03:54
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They might not have been killed, but a genocide doesn't require murder. They were intimidated into leaving. There were over 300k in Kashmir before, it's in the 4 digits now.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:11
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Genocide, in fact, does. Ethnic cleansing doesn't, and this is an edge case among Hindu scholars even on that front. They are all still in the province, after all, just in awful squalid refugee camps the government has neglected for a generation. They've been able to return for a bit now, although I can see why they wouldn't, but that would require the Indian government to acknowledge their existence and maybe fork over some money to help people who are, coreligionists aside, just obnoxious vermin when they aren't being waved as trophies for Modi's nationalists.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:27
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You know that Pandits are Brahmins right? Lol
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Mar 7, 2019 04:32
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Zurakara posted:Genocide, in fact, does. 'Deliberate act to destroy a people, in whole or in part' does not say anything about killing being part of that.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:41
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Which is why the government gives the half dozen it's helped resettle such nice plastic boxes to live in. Only the finest accommodations for these people Hindutva freaks definitely care about and respect. Other groups could only dream of having half a plastic box car to live in. Being brahmins(!BRAHMINS!) definitely isn't only emphasized just to further increase outrage directed at another social outgroup.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:43
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India absolutely should cede territory.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:52
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whatever happened I'm sure we could all agree it would be a lot easier to resolve all these problems if Pakistan stopped protecting and arming Indian al Qaeda on their border at least? I'm kind of biased on the Kashmir situation because I really viscerally dislike Pakistan and I can't shake the feeling anything they are involved in must be bad by association.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:55
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Thanks Zurakara, sounds like you agree that Modi isn't actually pro-Hindutva e: if he was he would've sanctioned Saudi Arabia for how they mistreat foreign workers (regardless of religion)
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Mar 7, 2019 04:56
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If even 10% of Indians are as awful as svenkatesh Kashmir definitely needs to be nope the gently caress out of that country
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Mar 7, 2019 05:03
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Who knows, maybe 20% of Kashmiris would've been as bad as me. Too bad the Muslims genocided the Hindus who lived in the Kashmir valley. And yeah, India is terrible to Mohammadans. That's why almost 20% of the population is Islamic even though (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 7, 2019 05:14
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reignonyourparade posted:'Deliberate act to destroy a people, in whole or in part' does not say anything about killing being part of that. The etymology of genocide absolutely explicitly and implicitly implies that it is through killing. The cide (from latin caedere, to kill) isn't there just to make the word sound good or whatever. Like there's a bit of flexibility, but (eg the residential schools movement arguably counts as genocide, and imo should be labeled as such) the concern with destruction of a group is the core of genocide vs ethnic cleansing, which is generally the removal of a group from an area, sometimes via genocide, sometimes via terror Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 05:49
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Squalid posted:I'm kind of biased on the Kashmir situation because I really viscerally dislike Pakistan and I can't shake the feeling anything they are involved in must be bad by association.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:05
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See, this is why I/P threads need to be separated out of the general ME thread.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:05
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Middle East Thread - No I/P chat. No, the other I/P
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Mar 7, 2019 06:07
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The etymology of genocide absolutely explicitly and implicitly implies that it is through killing. The cide (from latin caedere, to kill) isn't there just to make the word sound good or whatever. Like there's a bit of flexibility, but (eg the residential schools movement arguably counts as genocide, and imo should be labeled as such) the concern with destruction of a group is the core of genocide vs ethnic cleansing, which is generally the removal of a group from an area, sometimes via genocide, sometimes via terror The etymology is not the definition.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:09
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I just want to point out the irony of someone with the etymologically-unsupportable terrible word "herstory" in their name using etymology in an argument.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:33
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I just want to point out the irony of someone with the etymologically-unsupportable terrible word "herstory" in their name using etymology in an argument. Talk to the mod in the name change thread I suppose? reignonyourparade posted:The etymology is not the definition. If you look at all the other 'cide' words and the history and legacy of the use of genocide it 100% favors an interpretation wrt death and/or destruction of a group. It was broadened as a term because other things are effectively every bit as bad even if they don't involve specifically killing all the members of a group. The modern international law definition is more expansive because they rightfully recognized that it's myopic to limit it to destruction by killing Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 06:36
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svenkatesh posted:And yeah, India is terrible to Mohammadans. That's why almost 20% of the population is Islamic even though Ok we can officially not ever have you be the champion of ethnic cleansing victims again after this extremely pro-ethnic cleansing post. You are seriously an enormous piece of poo poo. 
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Mar 7, 2019 06:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Talk to the mod in the name change thread I suppose? I wasn't saying your were wrong, I just thought it was funny.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:52
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Squalid posted:If even 10% of Indians are as awful as svenkatesh Kashmir definitely needs to be nope the gently caress out of that country More like a good 30-40%
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Mar 7, 2019 08:47
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Genocide means to kill. Ethnic cleansing is the broad term that covers all means of removing a defined group of people from an area while genocide is explicitly removal by killing.
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Mar 7, 2019 09:19
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