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Cerv posted:Would that Corbyn had turned and punched the egg thrower Prescott for deputy leader
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Mar 4, 2019 11:00
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Lol I replied to that John Harris article with, essentially, 'saying that a belief that corrupt elites exploit the rest of us is implicitly antisemitic seems like a pretty sketchy position that could be read as 'anticapitalism =antisemitism' and, I poo poo you not, his response was effectively 'maybe read some Marx dumbass  '
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Mar 4, 2019 11:02
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Has anyone said "cash for the cash god, regions for the region throne" yet? 
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Mar 4, 2019 11:05
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ThomasPaine posted:Lol I replied to that John Harris article with, essentially, 'saying that a belief that corrupt elites exploit the rest of us is implicitly antisemitic seems like a pretty sketchy position that could be read as 'anticapitalism =antisemitism' and, I poo poo you not, his response was effectively 'maybe read some Marx dumbass But to get "21st century anticapitalism is antisemitic" because Marx said some poo poo about observant Jews while himself being ethnically Jewish requires higher level brain worms than "Planned Parenthood is racist because Margaret Sanger." Also it assumes that all anticapitalism is of the Marxist tradition. Fairly sure that Emma Goldman wasn't an antisemite.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:10
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OwlFancier posted:I can buy that but the problem is that's not how stuff works. It's third wayism. You can't run something on the idea that we'll just pretend to care about one thing to get support while we actually devote our attention to the other thing, because quite shortly you end up with people who were raised on the messaging about the first thing and actually just care about the first thing and oh look now they're running the organization. Luckily if people are passionate enough about conservation and want to pursue a career in it, this kind of stuff gets addressed and made sense of (at least it did in my Marine Biology degree and other ones that my friends did).
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Mar 4, 2019 11:12
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Guavanaut posted:I mean antisemitism was a part of a lot of 19th century anticapitalism, as it was a part of 19th century philosophy, fine art, opera, workers' poetry, science, engineering, and I presume baked goods and greengrocery, although there's less well preserved evidence there. His point was more, I think, that Marx wouldn't have agreed rather than Marx was antisemitic, which is even more 
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Mar 4, 2019 11:13
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Nono he's drawing a distinction between capitalism, the system, and capitalists, the people who benefit from and maintain the system - you see, Marx criticised the former, which is fine, whereas it's antisemitic to oppose the latter because fffaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrttttt*shits self* (yeah I did look the tweet up, journalist is dumb) e: actually putting the antisemitism thing to one side for a minute, it's pretty good that the dialogue has moved from "you can't criticise capitalism because the USSR & also the bins didn't get picked up one time" to "okay you can criticise capitalism as a system just don't criticise me & my mates who deliberately maintain it", since it means they're ceding ground (& to an even more obviously dumb position that's gonna fall flat in relatively short order). Just sucks that they're probably gonna cause hate crimes in the process 
Borrovan fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 11:17
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Guavanaut posted:I mean antisemitism was a part of a lot of 19th century anticapitalism, as it was a part of 19th century philosophy, fine art, opera, workers' poetry, science, engineering, and I presume baked goods and greengrocery, although there's less well preserved evidence there. Emma Goldman was apparently not antisemitic but your garden variety racist. Kill your heros and preserve the good bits, I guess. For Marx it'd be his beard and material dialectics.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:18
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ThomasPaine posted:His point was more, I think, that Marx wouldn't have agreed rather than Marx was antisemitic, which is even more Which, okay, so it's a systemic issue rather than individual puppet masters. Now what? Either we deal with that, which requires changes, or we cater to the tears of the capital class, which sounds a lot like #notallmen Or given the comparative sizes and power of the two groups, more like #notallwhites in 1970s South Africa. Great, not every single white person is deeply invested in a conspiracy with meetings on Thursdays to preserve white supremacy. Does that mean that nobody is allowed to say that apartheid is 'organized white supremacy' or accuse 'whites' of being an elite while there's one homeless white guy in Cape Province without being the Reverse Racist? (People like Steve Biko did legit get accused of that.) Because that sounds like unhelpfully limiting language in a bad situation. Also it still ignores that Karl Marx isn't the emperor of anticapitalism. Miftan posted:Emma Goldman was apparently not antisemitic but your garden variety racist. Kill your heros and preserve the good bits, I guess. Miftan posted:For Marx it'd be his beard and material dialectics.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:27
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Guavanaut posted:In that case it's probably referring to Marx's later beliefs (after working closely with Engels) that the individual capitalist is not to blame, but is subject to the same bad system as the individual worker, and the system traps both capitalist and worker while capital sucks living wealth from the worker. I just going to go with 'he's a dumbass' if I'm honest. Capitalists may be stuck in the same death spiral as the rest of us, but Bezos et al have the power to stop it at any moment and choose not to. I've not read much late Marx but if he somehow came to think they're just as powerless as us this is going to be the most brutal 'never meet your heroes' shock of all time. E: I'll give a minor caveat to very small business owners in this regard I guess Guavanaut posted:Dude knew how to party too. My favourite thing about Marx is he legitimises my own writing style i.e. spend months pissed up then write it all in manic frenzy over the course of a couple weeks ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 11:33
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Guavanaut posted:What are the terrible things about Lucy Parsons? Nm can't find any evidence so disregard. Miftan fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 11:34
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Whether it is the choice of the capitalist or not to perpetuate the system it doesn't change the fact that killing all of them would fix it and incur comparatively very little violence compared to letting it continue.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:35
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OwlFancier posted:Whether it is the choice of the capitalist or not to perpetuate the system it doesn't change the fact that killing all of them would fix it and incur comparatively very little violence compared to letting it continue. 
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Mar 4, 2019 11:36
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ThomasPaine posted:I just going to go with 'he's a dumbass' if I'm honest. That's what I remember from reading it, I'll try to find it for you. E ugh it might be in the species being essays.. Miftan fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 11:37
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Apologies if this has already been posted but for a nice change of pace, here's a british celebrity that doesn't suck: https://twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1102486398693724161
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Mar 4, 2019 11:40
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ThomasPaine posted:I just going to go with 'he's a dumbass' if I'm honest. I'll extend the apartheid metaphor here and say that a lot of white South Africans knew that the system was terrible and unsustainable, but were powerless to individually dismantle it. They were just as much beneficiaries of white supremacy as those who actively tried to prop up the failing system. Some of them approached that through liberal charity ends (which brings to mind the worst slaveowners quote), others (notably the Anglican church in South Africa) took a better approach by knowing that the overthrow must be headed by the oppressed and encouraging Black-led community organizations, and still others let Umkhonto we Sizwe hide in their outbuildings; but they still all benefited from the system of minority rule.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:47
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Guavanaut posted:I don't think it was so much "they're just as powerless" as "they're stuck in the same system of capitalism, of which they are the beneficiaries". This was "capitalism is a stage of development" Marx rather than "spectres of communism" Marx, so it was less about concrete solutions (that's where your Leninism etc. comes in) and more about describing the inherent instability of the capital mode of production. This is really interesting but I really don't think guardian communist John Harris is coming at it from quite this angle
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Mar 4, 2019 11:51
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Miftan posted:Emma Goldman was apparently not antisemitic but your garden variety racist. Kill your heros and preserve the good bits, I guess. For Marx it'd be his beard and material dialectics. So what are the sources on Goldman being racist? Not that I don't believe it, anyone from her background born in the 19th century is going to fail to meet modern standards on racism. Just can't say I heard that before and it's certainly good not to be blinkered on your heroes (for lack of a better term) flaws. But a quick and lazy Google doesn't fine much, race wasn't really at the front of her concerns nearly as much as gender and class and nationalism. But it was a " look at page 1 only "job.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:52
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ThomasPaine posted:This is really interesting but I really don't think guardian communist John Harris is coming at it from quite this angle The capitalist equivalent is of course "an elite clique of capitalists" rather than "anything to do with Jews at all" so he's being deliberately obtuse. I'm not sure what the equivalent of the white smallholder who assists militants is under British late capitalism. Maybe Quaker landlords who refuse to do the hostile environment checks and reinvest all of their profit in fighting for better housing, knowing that the other route (selling all their houses and not being landlords) would just result in some dickbag BtLing them?
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Mar 4, 2019 11:58
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oops https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1102509516351029248
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Mar 4, 2019 11:59
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OwlFancier posted:TBH a lot of conservationism has always struck me as weird. Like people devote a lot of resources and attention to making sure there are still lions so that david attenborough can videotape them and ASMR in your lug about them. The lions are under threat now. Humanity isn’t going to be under threat for a good while. And I don’t think resources going to protecting lions are being taken from the ‘fix humanity’ reserve. And any species disappearing will have knock on effects to the whole ecosystem. Let’s not get blasé about extinction.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:04
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forkboy84 posted:So what are the sources on Goldman being racist? Not that I don't believe it, anyone from her background born in the 19th century is going to fail to meet modern standards on racism. Just can't say I heard that before and it's certainly good not to be blinkered on your heroes (for lack of a better term) flaws. But a quick and lazy Google doesn't fine much, race wasn't really at the front of her concerns nearly as much as gender and class and nationalism. But it was a " look at page 1 only "job. Mostly stuff about how her feud with Lucy Parsons was only about ideological differences, but I can't find anything now either so I've decided to retract it for now. I'll post if I find it again.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:11
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Skipped the thread over the weekend. Did we hear from PJ or Loafer at all yet?
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Mar 4, 2019 12:17
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Regarde Aduck posted:
LOL bad news about the next few decades pal
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Mar 4, 2019 12:17
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OwlFancier posted:Environmentalism as a thing that's important to preserving the welfare of human life and to an extent large scale animal life makes sense but is the biggest problem really that lions might stop existing?
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Mar 4, 2019 12:17
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even other guardian columnists find it ridiculous https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1102524554226868224
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Mar 4, 2019 12:19
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coffeetable posted:a-loving-men. europeans spent two thousand years converting an entire continent to farmland, and the benefits have vastly, vastly outweighed the costs Apart from the soil erosion.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:19
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^^ worth it yellow is farmland, light green is pasture. once upon a time it was all dark green and full of wolves.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:19
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Jose posted:even other guardian columnists find it ridiculous Who actually said that? Comments suggest a Labour MP?
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Mar 4, 2019 12:21
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coffeetable posted:^^ worth it well I suppose I mean more "we need to combat it" I hear Sweden has a system in place to counteract it
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Mar 4, 2019 12:22
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i will accept that the consequences of efficient use of european terrain for the rest of the world have been pretty poor, so yeah maybe we should stop south america from doing the same before they get any ideas
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Mar 4, 2019 12:23
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https://twitter.com/MollyMEP/status/1102501507864424448
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Mar 4, 2019 12:24
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Miftan posted:Mostly stuff about how her feud with Lucy Parsons was only about ideological differences, but I can't find anything now either so I've decided to retract it for now. I'll post if I find it again. Yeah, the little bits I did see did seem centred on her feud with Parsons and I dunno, it's hard to work out how to separate genuine racial shittiness and a personal animosity from the little I've read on the topic. Still think Goldman was rad as hell though. All your faves are problematic.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:28
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£1.6b seems a low offer as well.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:30
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£1.6 over seven years, so really it's $220mn a year which is effectively a couple mil per district. Aka the amount council rates normally go up if they follow inflation.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:32
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Hentai Jihadist posted:LOL bad news about the next few decades pal And the previous few decades. We're already going through a mass extinction event all thanks to human progress. The last event of this scale being the one that wiped out the dinosaurs. It's a catastrophe.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:34
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Aw, poo poo, Keith Flint of The Prodigy is dead.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:35
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Keith Flint's dead, what the gently caress [efb]coffeetable posted:^^ worth it Agriculture was bad because it allowed the formation of fixed hierarchies and property ownership and, but we ate that fruit a long time ago, and going backwards would be terrible. Then a Jewish guy figured out how to pull bread out of thin air, but instead of a utopia he got persecuted. This also explains why so much of the techbro singularity and other utopian postindustrialism sounds like the Second Coming.
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Mar 4, 2019 12:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Aw, poo poo, Keith Flint of The Prodigy is dead. 
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Mar 4, 2019 12:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Aw, poo poo, Keith Flint of The Prodigy is dead. gently caress
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Mar 4, 2019 12:42
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