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Maaaaan.....This was the first and only thing I ever backed and it seemed to be doing really well until now. Now I'm not sure what to think. I kinda still really want them to finish the game and all but no way in hell I'm using the game service basically controlled by the Chinese government. Maybe I'll just skip the refund but wait and extra year for my Steam key to arrive instead.
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Mar 13, 2019 21:56
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Jack Trades posted:Maaaaan.....This was the first and only thing I ever backed and it seemed to be doing really well until now. I backed Star citizen in November 2013, and look where that got me (in this thread laughing at developers' incompetence). If you ask me, you're still getting a game on a known date through a shady but real, existing storefront. So imo that's a big win compared to having thrown money down the spaceship.jpg toilet
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Mar 13, 2019 22:00
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TorakFade posted:I backed Star citizen in November 2013, and look where that got me (in this thread laughing at developers' incompetence). If you ask me, you're still getting a game on a known date through a shady but real, existing storefront. So imo that's a big win compared to having thrown money down the spaceship.jpg toilet Well...that's a really really low bar to pass, to be honest. Less of a bar and more of a line painted on the ground.
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Mar 13, 2019 22:01
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Commissar Kip posted:Oh, you forgot the best part. THEY approached EPIC, not the other way around! Gollop posted:Q: This, right here, just ensured that your community will never trust you again. They didn't come to you with a pile of money in exchange for the game, you LITERALLY WENT TO THEM AND ASKED THEM HOW MUCH THEY WOULD GIVE YOU FOR YOUR DIGNITY. the most interesting part is if they even attempted to ask the fig 'investor' side, which is different than the backers. anyone been forthcoming on any feedback/documents given in advance of this very significant business decision? Impermanent posted:wow, 3% cancellations. that's almost 23k they'll lose. If you figure that compared to getting an up front lump sum from a distributor they might have to..... not change anything at all?
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Mar 13, 2019 22:05
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Jack Trades posted:Well...that's a really really low bar to pass, to be honest. What I mean is, don't be too upset, there's always someone stupider than you. I spent 80 dollars on vaporware basically, but I am still here and I most definitely learned my lesson: never even think about backing/crowdfunding any more videogames (actually got burned twice before realizing it.. clockwork empires was a pretty hard blow too. Luckily I dodged that Ultima shard of the avatar,or whatever that is called, poo poo)
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Mar 13, 2019 22:08
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Can we just wait on our backer thing and redeem it on Steam once it hits there? Would be far more convenient, at least.
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Mar 13, 2019 23:02
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Coolguye posted:oh my god how do you gently caress up this bad Not emptyquote 
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Mar 13, 2019 23:10
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Fuzz posted:Can we just wait on our backer thing and redeem it on Steam once it hits there? Would be far more convenient, at least. Once the exclusivity period is over you get your steam key, that's just as good as having it a year in advance right?
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Mar 13, 2019 23:12
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Fuzz posted:Can we just wait on our backer thing and redeem it on Steam once it hits there? Would be far more convenient, at least. Ok, this is going to sound really harsh and I don't want to give you the idea I am attacking you personally. I just want to say something about your last sentence because I've seen it repeated before during other scammy business discussions. Choosing convenience over your basic rights as a consumer to get the item you were promised in the first place at the time you agreed upon is basically just rolling over and relinquishing those rights because of convenience. You own these rights and you are giving them away because enforcing them is inconvenient to you. This poo poo pisses me off to no avail because these are not just YOUR rights but also OUR rights. By allowing this you are basically giving them the argument that people won't bother anyway so this is an ok thing to do. gently caress no. Personally, and this might explain why I feel so engaged here, I will fight for your rights even if you are OK relinquishing them. Because it isn't about you. It's about us as a society and us as a consumer base. And giving them away because you feel inconvenience is the most selfish thing you can do. It won't hit Steam/GoG for another year. And by doing so (waiting it out because hey I am still getting the game amirite in year) you are basically agreeing to their business practices because you still get your toys. I'm going out on a limb here and people will disagree and call me dramatic but I now firmly believe that doing that is morally wrong. Commissar Kip fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 23:25
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:unfortunately we won't know the actual figures short of vetting people who actually backed/invested there and polling them ourselves. 3% could be number of backers or $, it could be a particular segment of their market as well or just a made-up figure. we have no way of knowing. you also have to take into account the fact that A) this is a very new development, a good portion of backers probably do not know about this change yet and some of them are going to be mad enough about this to ask for a refund B) judging by this post TorakFade posted:edit: also, they won't refund on the original payment method but through a third party which you have to give your bank account info to, because "it's too late now for refunding on the original payment methods since it's been more than 2 years", totally discounting people who pledged late, or preordered on their site recently, or whatever other excellent reason one would have for wanting reimbursement on their card or payment method (which is basically any reason) The refund process is a pain in the rear end and requires giving an unrelated 3rd party your bank info, which a lot of people are understandably uncomfortable with
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Mar 13, 2019 23:31
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I have no idea how Fig works ("investors" idea aside), but aren't most crowfunding platforms very clears in saying "you are not buying a product, you are giving money to people to help create the content and if/when this gets out you'll get it" (or if it's not founded you'll get your money back) so that nothing really is set in stone? This development looks super shady and horrible, mind you, but I was under the impression that any money thrown towards a crowfunded game comes with a "no strings" attached clause, as long as you are getting something or your money back. They are going back on their promises a big time, but there isn't an enforceable contract they are breaking with this? RE: "your basic rights as a consumer to get the item you were promised in the first place" - if this is like KS (and again, may be different for the "investors") you definitely don't have consumer right protection similar to, IE: buying something on Amazon. This is probably a gray area and I'm sure there has been some ruling on cases of more blatant crowfunding platform abuse, but from a legal point of view there is probably nothing to be done for regular backers, aside from cancelling/refunding. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 23:32
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You're not wrong but also what the gently caress do you think we should do? Like their PR guys said, even if every backer refunds they will still end up in the black as planned so our tantrums will result in nothing but an inconvenience to ourselves.
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Mar 13, 2019 23:32
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This is why you don't preorder anything or back games on crowdfunding platforms that and all the other reasons, also
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Mar 13, 2019 23:39
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:This is why you don't preorder anything or back games on crowdfunding platforms I mean, you can as long as you treat that money as lost until proven otherwise. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 23:41
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We just hired a passionate guy from the community to do our PR  *The sounds of a thousand communications professionals crying out at once, and then going silent*
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Mar 13, 2019 23:43
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Jack Trades posted:You're not wrong but also what the gently caress do you think we should do? Just like in a bad relationship you say goodbye and move on with your life. You just don't decide to play along and yes, by doing so you lose being able to play the game. But is your desire to play this game, while there is a whole world full of different games made by designers that don't gently caress you over (like Xenonauts 2 for example), stronger than your morals? That's basically the question. Are you so afraid to miss out on a game that you are ready to go along with a bad thing? And yes, they will still end up in the black and we do inconvenience ourselves. But at least we're not morally broken human beings. If we choose convenience over our own morals we are really in the darkest timeline. I refunded btw. I am taking my ball and I am not playing along.
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Mar 13, 2019 23:46
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All the talk about account/PII scams on the Epic Store have convinced me not to create an account tied to a payment method. Can you: A) Create an account without one and B) Buy keys for the Epic Store on third party websites and activate the game on the Epic Store? That way I guess I could create a throwaway account, set up some kind of weak 2fa, activate the game then uninstall the Epic Store app, since I'd rather not wait 1y to play this game.
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Mar 13, 2019 23:47
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I guess this sucks but people are being very dramatic about it. The PR person with no experience hired for a popular crowdfunded game curse reigns supreme
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Mar 13, 2019 23:49
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That Italian Guy posted:I have no idea how Fig works ("investors" idea aside), but aren't most crowfunding platforms very clears in saying "you are not buying a product, you are giving money to people to help create the content and if/when this gets out you'll get it" (or if it's not founded you'll get your money back) so that nothing really is set in stone? This development looks super shady and horrible, mind you, but I was under the impression that any money thrown towards a crowfunded game comes with a "no strings" attached clause, as long as you are getting something or your money back. so the easiest way to talk about how fig works is that you go out and say "i want to raise $x for my game, and for this money i am willing to give up y% of my overall sales upon completion of that game." so if you're backing CoolGame by coolguy and i'm raising 100k for 10% of sales, and you give me 1k, you are entitled to 1% of that 10% (so, 0.1%) of every sale. the way this differs from normal crowdfunding is that when you start taking money from people in expectation of a return, you start flirting very hot and heavy with the securities act of 1933. this is no longer just a consumer rights issue, it is an investor rights issue. this is precisely why the whole "well you'll get it maybe" cavalier poo poo that tends to fly with crowdfunding gets a lot more shaky once you start giving out equity (or returns, which can be construed as the same thing). failure is always an option in these ventures but you have to be able to justify how you failed to not get sued by minority shareholders claiming you took them for a ride. in this case, the entire deal is substantially complicated because the fig investors signed up for a portion of sales, which is not what the funds secured by the exclusivity deal are. so going back to the example of CoolGame, assume that in a world where i just published the game, i would sell 100k copies in the first 6 months. at 30 bucks each, that's 3 million, and you get 0.1% of that, or $3000. you tripled your input money. great. now assume that i took 2M from a single store for exclusivity, and i instead only sold 10k copies in the first 6 months and yielded 300k. now you made $300, lost money, and i got to keep the 10% of 2M that that otherwise i would have had to split with you. these sorts of fake-out deals are exactly the sorts of things that they created securities laws to cover. you can't just darth vader alter the deal and expect people to sit there and pray you don't alter it any further. in traditional equity raises this usually involves getting the consent of the board/your existing investors before raising a new round of funding, so the downside of dilution is understood and accepted before it happens. none of that happened here. now precisely how this will shake out with regard to fig specifically is anyone's guess. this sort of model is still very new and the SEC has never fully weighed in on it. but hopefully that gives you an idea of why this is a LOT different than some dumbass getting in over his head and failing on kickstarter. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 23:52
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That Italian Guy posted:B) Buy keys for the Epic Store on third party websites and activate the game on the Epic Store? Well, probably not, because Epic is on record as saying they want to control prices, so they don't let people sell keys for their exclusives on third party sites. Say goodbye to IsThereAnyDeal.com if Epic is here to stay. vvv They can't do anything about existing keys. Metro and Division 2 are in a weird position in that they had already been on sale before becoming exclusives. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 23:54
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That Italian Guy posted:All the talk about account/PII scams on the Epic Store have convinced me not to create an account tied to a payment method. Can you: Yeah, there's a few CDKey stores that are selling game codes for the Epic store that you can redeem in-client e: ^ there's quite a few sites that are selling Metro: Exodus keys from what I'm seeing so I'm not sure what to make of it "not being allowed"
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Mar 13, 2019 23:56
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if you'd rather not wait a year to play this game i can't help but notice that gollup confirmed that there will be no other DRM on the game. mail his studio a check made out to Snapshot Games for the purchase price with a little note that says you're not comfortable with EGS so you got it from piratebay instead.
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Mar 13, 2019 23:59
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DatonKallandor posted:Well, probably not, because Epic is on record as saying they want to control prices, so they don't let people sell keys for their exclusives on third party sites. Say goodbye to IsThereAnyDeal.com if Epic is here to stay. Mmm this sounds super bad, but I'm having a look at a couple of keys sites and, at least for the time being, I can see keys for games on the Epic Store going for way less that the equivalent price on the store itself (at a random check, on Kinguin there is a key for Metro Exodus for the EGS at about 30€ vs 60€ on the EGS). Are you saying Epic is going to stop allowing this in the future? If I wanted to pay :60box: for day1 exclusives I would have bought a console and played RDR2  E: Metro has been discussed already as a possible exception. Guess I'll pass until I can buy this for less than full retail on a platform that is slightly safer than sending my card details in plain text to the Chinese government.
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Mar 14, 2019 00:02
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Coolguye posted:if you'd rather not wait a year to play this game i can't help but notice that gollup confirmed that there will be no other DRM on the game. mail his studio a check made out to Snapshot Games for the purchase price with a little note that says you're not comfortable with EGS so you got it from piratebay instead. and then go 'sorry i renegotiated our deal that's ok right yeah thats ok'
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Mar 14, 2019 00:04
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Commissar Kip posted:and then go 'sorry i renegotiated our deal that's ok right yeah thats ok' Our new partner, skidrow. All jokes aside, given that it's SP with no DRMs, and given that the overlap of "people pissed out by this" and "people that have pirated games in their past" is probably a full circle (piracy being such a giant thing back in the days) this could be one of the most pirated games of all time. Ironically, thanks to their new partnership, this could touch Gollup e Co. only marginally, if they are planning to make bank on the EGS deal.
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Mar 14, 2019 00:08
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That Italian Guy posted:Our new partner, skidrow. from the attitude they are taking toward all of this i think they got enough money that gollup would be fine with just releasing the game to absolutely zero fanfare and loving off to his next project. the lack of sympathy for any of their detractors in the AMA took me off guard. even EA knows to at least pretend like you're sorry for making people mad, but a hell of a lot of the AMA read like a gently caress you got mine. another year after release nobody will really remember all of the details we're now seeing unless there actually is a successful lawsuit against him, so i doubt it would stop him from functioning as the head of a studio.
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Mar 14, 2019 00:15
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They have no incentive to make any sales for year. They don't care if it gets pirated, because they wouldn't see a cent of any sale on EGS anyway.
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Mar 14, 2019 00:16
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Coolguye posted:so the easiest way to talk about how fig works is that you go out and say "i want to raise $x for my game, and for this money i am willing to give up y% of my overall sales upon completion of that game." so if you're backing CoolGame by coolguy and i'm raising 100k for 10% of sales, and you give me 1k, you are entitled to 1% of that 10% (so, 0.1%) of every sale. This post is very good and instructive, thank you.
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Mar 14, 2019 00:18
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DatonKallandor posted:They have no incentive to make any sales for year. They don't care if it gets pirated, because they wouldn't see a cent of any sale on EGS anyway. That would be the ultimate schadenfreude though. If they just sell 0 units and Epic just wasted all that money and this is just a big con by them to swindle Epic for a big house in Bulgaria and a retirement fund (hint: Bulgaria is cheap as chips. You can get a 15 room mansion with a lake for 120000 euro in Bulgaria. That's around 136006 USD.).
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Mar 14, 2019 00:25
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Commissar Kip posted:Ok, this is going to sound really harsh and I don't want to give you the idea I am attacking you personally. I just want to say something about your last sentence because I've seen it repeated before during other scammy business discussions. I mean, I'm sorry you're really upset about it but I probably wasn't even going to play it for a few years anyway since my backlog is stupidly ridiculous. I'm still fine supporting this kind of game and as a guy that has consoles I basically don't care about exclusivity crap. The fact of the matter is that all your sentiments about MY PROPERTY are fine, but it remains true that for the amount of work that goes into the product and for the amount of entertainment and value a gamer stands to gain out of said product, the amount paid vs, say, a movie you see one time in a theater for 2.5 hours of your life is ridiculous. I'll play this eventually and don't really care how or when, though I'd like to keep my name in the credits because why not. There are a thousand other battles I care about far more than this, so thank you for dying on this hill, I guess, and I look forward to the entire industry bowing in defeat to your outrage. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 14, 2019 00:40
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I too will meekly bow my head
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Mar 14, 2019 00:54
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Wait, so, what exactly is the problem? I'm understanding that people who backed on Fig can either stay invested, in which case they get their payout including a chunk of the Epic money, or they can divest if they're uncomfortable with the situation, in which case they get their investment returned as if they'd never done it to begin with. That seems... honestly pretty agreeable? You get to roll with it if you're cool with it, and they're giving you an undo button if you're not. e: I mean with regards to Fig stuff in particular- obviously EGS is a shitshow.
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Mar 14, 2019 01:08
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Thanks for the interest free loan that we could use to secure a better deal for ourselves, now just give your bank credentials to this 3rd party over here and you'll get your money back within a month. What's the problem?
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Mar 14, 2019 01:11
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Wait, so, what exactly is the problem?
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Mar 14, 2019 01:55
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Seems like Fig should be hitting back hard on this.
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Mar 14, 2019 01:59
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Demiurge4 posted:Seems like Fig should be hitting back hard on this. Didn't someone earlier in the thread say that Fig investors would still be getting their % of the exclusivity cash? If I had pledged money anticipating a return (rather than a game I personally wanted to play) I'd probably be awfully happy at this.
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Mar 14, 2019 02:03
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Bremen posted:Didn't someone earlier in the thread say that Fig investors would still be getting their % of the exclusivity cash? If I had pledged money anticipating a return (rather than a game I personally wanted to play) I'd probably be awfully happy at this. I thought the big stink was that the investors wouldn't be getting the exclusivity cash
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Mar 14, 2019 02:28
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Wait, so, what exactly is the problem? if they said all of this PRIOR to taking the money and worked it out beforehand then yes this might be fine. but remember, the context here is not "i gave you money so you will give me thing." it's "i gave you money so that you will hand me back more money." it isn't as simple as just giving someone their money back. they had the expectation that this would return more money, and if that is not going to be the case then there better darn well be an explanation for the failure of the investment. if this had happened a month, two months after then that would be one thing and you could probably divest yourself fairly smoothly. but it has been years at this point and the entire time the entire conversation has been that gollup's team was working hard and diligently using the backers' funds to ultimately return that money, plus more, to the backers. i am sorry for abusing formatting here but i don't know how many loving times i need to type this out for the general thread population to get it. gollup took money from people, while promising to use that money to make them more money. he then used that money to pursue actions that work directly against his promises to make these people more money. securities law in the united states says this is generally NOT OK but the particulars around this case are really weird so it's impossible to say that there will be Consequences. however, these laws create expectations of what is and isn't fair play and gollup is definitely on the wrong side of those expectations. Bremen posted:Didn't someone earlier in the thread say that Fig investors would still be getting their % of the exclusivity cash? If I had pledged money anticipating a return (rather than a game I personally wanted to play) I'd probably be awfully happy at this. the payment from epic to secure the exclusivity is not going to be shared with the fig investors to anyone's knowledge. they certainly didn't bring that up at the AMA and that would be one of the first things i'd talk about in this situation, rather than offering a 'full refund' if you just provide your banking information to this random shady third party!
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Mar 14, 2019 02:30
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The funny thing, to me anyway, is that I'd kinda been cooling getting the game anyhow. The most recent vids and info didn't really excite me. And having only recently stopped getting daily security notices from loving Epic about my EGS account, I'm sure as poo poo not re-installing that crap. Xenonauts 2 is out this month, possibly even tomorrow if Wikipedia is to be believed. That seems like a much better idea than fooling around with Phoenix Point at this stage.
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Mar 14, 2019 02:51
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:the most interesting part is if they even attempted to ask the fig 'investor' side Fig investors buy shares in a separate company which has rights to some of the game’s revenue. They do not own any part of Snapshot, and do not have any corporate information rights for Snapshot other than as related to audit provisions regarding revenue accounting. It’s pretty clear in the agreement, IIRC. It would have been shocking if they’d put even a janitorial services deal at risk in order to bring the Fig investors into the loop.
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Mar 14, 2019 03:07
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