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i've appreciated the lack of a swastika in hoi4 since that means i can play it where other people can see my screen.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:13
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Obliterati posted:Hopefully this means the next PDXCon won't have SS cosplayers, wait who am I kidding If this happens, please take photos and forward them to Kotaku/Polygon/Waypoint/whatever. I love PDX games to death but they are entirely too tolerant of this poo poo.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:13
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Orv posted:You seem like you'd be a blast at parties. Positively explosive, honey.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:15
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aardvaard posted:i've appreciated the lack of a swastika in hoi4 since that means i can play it where other people can see my screen.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:28
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Drone posted:If this happens, please take photos and forward them to Kotaku/Polygon/Waypoint/whatever. Yeah tbh I should have done this
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Mar 15, 2019 16:40
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show up in red army uniforms and jump the Nazis
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Mar 15, 2019 17:11
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Cyka Blyat rush SS
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Mar 15, 2019 17:21
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Agean90 posted:show up in red army uniforms and jump the Nazis I mean we had red Lenin T-shirt’s for the group.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:35
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Crazycryodude posted:They managed to take down all the Nazi Stellaris mods IIRC No, just type "nazi" into the workshop and a bunch will pop up, there are probably way more that are less obviously named. Plenty of vague "Reich" mods. Average Bear posted:DAE think nazi and communist the same thing?? I know people from ex-soviet countries who view communists and nazis with equal vitriol. For example, I have a Moldovan co-worker who detests the communists for their attempts to assimilate his people out of existence. (his words, not mine) Edit: As for CK2, it's a game that lets you do the following in the base game (no mods required): Eradicate religions  Exterminate cultures  And click this button  All though Paradox-approved game mechanics in the base, un-modded game. Dramicus fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 15, 2019 |
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Mar 15, 2019 18:15
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I’m not sure what your point is
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Mar 15, 2019 18:44
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Dramicus posted:I know people from ex-soviet countries who view communists and nazis with equal vitriol. For example, I have a Moldovan co-worker who detests the communists for their attempts to assimilate his people out of existence. (his words, not mine) He is talking about a specific communist dictatorship(the soviets), not communists in general. Just like we refer to Nazis as Nazis, not fascists, when discussing poo poo that the Nazi regime did.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:46
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CharlestheHammer posted:I’m not sure what your point is I'm all for banning racists, but it seems a little hypocritical to get upset over people saying "remove kebab" while creating the mechanics to let them actually do it and in some cases incentivize it to reduce unrest and revolt risk, for example. Cynic Jester posted:He is talking about a specific communist dictatorship(the soviets), not communists in general. Just like we refer to Nazis as Nazis, not fascists, when discussing poo poo that the Nazi regime did. I don't think most people make a distinction between fascists and nazis and those that do are usually trying to make fascists look less bad.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:56
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No it’s not hypocritical to ban specific real live racism because the game exists?
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Mar 15, 2019 19:00
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Dramicus posted:No, just type "nazi" into the workshop and a bunch will pop up, there are probably way more that are less obviously named. Plenty of vague "Reich" mods. Are you confusing in-game mechanics with proper community moderation? Paradox ain't talking about their games, they are talking about lovely racists saying and doing racist poo poo
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Mar 15, 2019 19:02
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The freaking PC Police are on a drat rampage!
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Mar 15, 2019 19:04
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CharlestheHammer posted:No it’s not hypocritical to ban specific real live racism because the game exists? Always ban racism, that's not in question. But you shouldn't be surprised if your game attracts a certain crowd if you pander to them constantly. Average Bear posted:The freaking PC Police are on a drat rampage! You missed the point entirely. Paradox puts a literal "expel the jews" button in their game and refuses to acknowledge nazi warcrimes in any way shape or form in HOI4. They are partly responsible for the crowd that is attracted to their games. Dramicus fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Mar 15, 2019 |
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Mar 15, 2019 19:05
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One of the HOI4 devs wore a Hitler mustache during the MtG launch stream. I give Paradox a lot of credit for being forward-thinking, but sometimes (just sometimes) it feels like they intentionally pander to a certain slice (say, one on the far right) of their fan base.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:14
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Dramicus posted:
Is that you, Jack Thompson?
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Mar 15, 2019 19:17
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AG3 posted:Is that you, Jack Thompson? criticizing paradox's games on their merits doesn't deserve this kind of shitpost reply
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Mar 15, 2019 19:17
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The "expel the jews" might have a point, but is also something with heavy consequences and it really doesnt not seems to me to have any racist undertones Everything else are stuff you can do on almost any grand strategy game
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Mar 15, 2019 19:24
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It’s not really a shitpost the argument is just the Jack Thompson argument but used for war games instead of shooters
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Mar 15, 2019 19:24
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Cease to Hope posted:criticizing paradox's games on their merits doesn't deserve this kind of shitpost reply The Paradox developers and their games aren't above criticism, but the whole "the devs are partly to blame for the bad things their customers say and do" argument is moronic, and the fact that Paradox games are based on real history doesn't make them any different from any other game where you can do terrible things.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:33
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s not really a shitpost the argument is just the Jack Thompson argument but used for war games instead of shooters nobody's suggesting the games should be banned, or threatening ridiculous lawsuits, outrageously misrepresenting the actual content in games, or suggesting games for adults are corrupting children AG3 posted:The Paradox developers and their games aren't above criticism, but the whole "the devs are partly to blame for the bad things their customers say and do" argument is moronic, and the fact that Paradox games are based on real history doesn't make them any different from any other game where you can do terrible things. the devs are, to a degree, responsible for the people they cater to. it's their entire argument for not including atrocities in HOI4.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:33
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Drone posted:One of the HOI4 devs wore a Hitler mustache during the MtG launch stream. I give Paradox a lot of credit for being forward-thinking, but sometimes (just sometimes) it feels like they intentionally pander to a certain slice (say, one on the far right) of their fan base. He didn't, though.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:34
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yeah wasn't the mustache thing just the guy's facial hair not going all gray all at once or maybe i'm remembering a RLM best of the worst with some guy with a dark brown toothbrush mustache in the middle of his normal graying mustache
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Mar 15, 2019 19:38
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ArchangeI posted:He didn't, though.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:43
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Cynic Jester posted:He is talking about a specific communist dictatorship(the soviets), not communists in general. Just like we refer to Nazis as Nazis, not fascists, when discussing poo poo that the Nazi regime did. Also the goal of Nazism and fascism is to enact genocidal violence against one "other" or another. There's no Nazism or fascism that doesn't loving massacre people given half the chance. Communism isn't inherently violent even if the historical conditions of its realisation have forced it to be so (and yeah, sometimes it wasn't forced, sometimes the people in charge were just shitheads).
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Mar 15, 2019 19:49
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Honestly, it's hard to thread the needle between trying to do an "accurate" simulation of history and having to work around the atrocities that historical states committed for various reasons. If you don't put in some effort to keep certain types of people who revel in those, they'll start to fester. In theory, supplanting cultures in provinces is a cross between assimilation or just one culture growing populous enough to make the previous culture just a minority, but it isn't really portrayed much like that. I'd like it if in Victoria 3 they developed some system where you get to try to craft a national identity to try to make the disparate peoples in your country fit together rather than just nationalism popping up along historic lines as if it existed since the dawn of time, because it really didn't.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:54
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Cease to Hope posted:nobody's suggesting the games should be banned, or threatening ridiculous lawsuits, outrageously misrepresenting the actual content in games, or suggesting games for adults are corrupting children That doesn’t matter? Like I never claimed anyone was doing that.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:56
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Lightningproof posted:Also the goal of Nazism and fascism is to enact genocidal violence against one "other" or another. There's no Nazism or fascism that doesn't loving massacre people given half the chance. Communism isn't inherently violent even if the historical conditions of its realisation have forced it to be so (and yeah, sometimes it wasn't forced, sometimes the people in charge were just shitheads). What the theoretical ideological goal of the people in charge was is not going to matter much if you were on the receiving end of genocide. A mass grave is a mass grave, concentration camps are concentration camps, and the definition of a 'class enemy' is historically almost as arbitrary as the definition of the 'racially impure'. Doesn't matter that much in the context of this discussion, you can be opposed to multiple things while not necessarily addressing them all at once, if Paradox is cracking down on all this nazi poo poo right now then that can only be a net positive.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:56
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SlothfulCobra posted:In theory, supplanting cultures in provinces is a cross between assimilation or just one culture growing populous enough to make the previous culture just a minority, but it isn't really portrayed much like that. I'd like it if in Victoria 3 they developed some system where you get to try to craft a national identity to try to make the disparate peoples in your country fit together rather than just nationalism popping up along historic lines as if it existed since the dawn of time, because it really didn't. this is one of pdox's biggest weaknesses i think, the fact that clausewitz has pre-existing national boundaries encoded into the map as inevitable truths stretching back to the beginning of history, with de jure boundaries and cores.
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Mar 15, 2019 19:57
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Phlegmish posted:What the theoretical ideological goal of the people in charge was is not going to matter much if you were on the receiving end of genocide. A mass grave is a mass grave, concentration camps are concentration camps, and the definition of a 'class enemy' is historically almost as arbitrary as the definition of the 'racially impure'. I definitely knew all of this already but thanks for explaining it to me???
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Mar 15, 2019 19:59
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Phlegmish posted:What the theoretical ideological goal of the people in charge was is not going to matter much if you were on the receiving end of genocide. A mass grave is a mass grave, concentration camps are concentration camps, and the definition of a 'class enemy' is historically almost as arbitrary as the definition of the 'racially impure'. the big difference is that the nazi ideology leads directly to and explicitly supports ethnic cleansing, while one can be a communist and be completely disgusted by holodomor or pol pot or what have you (which is almost every communist i know - i don't tend to hang around with the ones who are fans of stalin)
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Mar 15, 2019 20:11
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Xerophyte posted:I'd only heard it from EU4 people and thought using kebab for Turkey and Turks was your standard uncreative food based semi-racism ("frogs", "krauts", etc) but apparently its origin is a lot weirder:
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Mar 15, 2019 20:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:Honestly, it's hard to thread the needle between trying to do an "accurate" simulation of history and having to work around the atrocities that historical states committed for various reasons. If you don't put in some effort to keep certain types of people who revel in those, they'll start to fester. You are right, it can be tricky, but it's not necessarily all that difficult to portray something reasonably. For example, we can take a look at HOI4 and Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa. Both are ww2 grand strategy games and both focus significantly on Germany and it's role in the war. HOI4 doesn't portray Germany or any part of Germany differently from any other country. The German military, including the Waffen SS, is treated exactly the same as every other nation's military. There is no commentary. Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa goes out of it's way to make the player aware of the different things going on behind the scenes during the invasion of the Soviet Union. It is primarily a wargame, like HOI4, but it has events and choices that relate to Germany's conduct in the war. The player is presented with incidents and requests from Nazi officials to turn a blind eye to atrocities that occur as the invasion progresses. At the end of the game, the player's roles, actions, or inaction, is tallied up and you are eventually tried in Nuremberg. If you took a stand against things like the enzatzsgruppen, or denied Himmler the right to operate units in your theater and otherwise did your best to fight a "clean" war, you might be exonerated. If you were found to have had the power to take action, but chose not to oppose the Nazi requests/wishes, you might be imprisoned, and if you are found to have been complicit in the atrocities, you will be hanged. All of this plays a relatively minor part of the game, but it's there and lets you know about the things that happened and some individuals roles in them. Hoi4, on the other hand, perpetuates the myth of a clean Wehrmacht and may even make ww2 Germany appealing as they get all the "cool" bits, with their snazzy uniforms and jetfighters and tiger tanks, but none of the not so cool stuff is portrayed in any way. You get a very one-sided and mostly favorable portrayal of ww2 Germany.
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Mar 15, 2019 20:40
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That campaign game I assume has you play as a specific commander which is not how paradox games work. They are doing to completely different things. It mechanically would make no sense
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Mar 15, 2019 20:43
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Grand strategy games are—by their nature—systems that allow us to play act doing some of the worst things that humans have ever done as fun amusements. This is hardly unique to them. An enormous amount of art and storytelling involves playacting some of the worst things that humans have ever done. It's part of how we learn, turn things over in our minds, and come to grips with them. As a not-a-nazi, I appreciate the ways that EU4 has made obvious the logics of Imperialism, by putting me in positions where I regularly act counter to my personal ethics around colonialism etc. I've been driven to learn a lot of history in my spare time because these games made me curious to find out more about some random event or map state. EU4 (the game I know best) is also deeply humanistic in its determination that every single nation should be playable. I think this is admirable. In service of making these games entertaining, a lot of atrocities are sanitized by gameplay and how we talk about the gameplay. In dev clashes, let's plays, etc the devs make light of the kind of ethnic divisions that animate the tides of history. It's all part of the fun, like hating on the red team if you are the blue team. But, as the reddit post says, this levity can be an entry point for nazis and murderous racists (and normal non-murderous racists) to feel welcome. There isn't an easy answer to what balance of sanitization vs historical accuracy makes for a more ethical representation of the kinds of themes covered in games like these, not least in part because different audiences will take different lessons from the exact same content. But that doesn't mean that this isn't a conversation worth having, pretty regularly.
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Mar 15, 2019 20:44
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Drone posted:also apparently there are rumors floating around in those threads about one of the shooters having "kebab removed" etched into his gun. What a truly fantastic community this is, all filled with very fine people. quote:In the manifesto, Tarrant refers to himself as a “kebab removalist,” which appears to be a reference to a meme that gained steam in the early 2000s. The meme is a reference to ethnic cleansing, according to Know Your Meme. In particular, a “kebab removalist” aims to cleanse the land of any and all adherents to the Islamic faith. En route to commit mass murder, Tarrant also appeared to listen to “Serbia Strong,” a song which originated the “kebab removalist” meme. https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/mosque-shooter-manifesto-memes/
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Mar 15, 2019 20:45
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I never knew HOI4 whitewashed nazi history that way, that indeed seems problematic
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Mar 15, 2019 20:46
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Elias_Maluco posted:I never knew HOI4 whitewashed nazi history that way, that indeed seems problematic wait til you find out the game's take on stalin's purges
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Mar 15, 2019 20:47
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