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MURPHAGATOR! posted:Can always just play with chips that dont have real money behind them. All the poker mentality still works even if the biggest stack gets to say they won. But wagering isn't part of the game of Magic. It is for poker. If the chips aren't worth anything, who cares? 50 "points" is the same as 1 "point" Edit: The social aspects like wagering and bluffing/trying to get people to bet the way you want is most of the game, you could argue. Ate My Balls Redux fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 19:53
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You guys do know that tournament poker isn't played with each chip representing real money changing hands, right? You can play poker for 1st/2nd/3rd place and it doesn't break the game just because a chip isn't worth 10 cents.
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Mar 19, 2019 19:56
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what I'm hearing is that you should play kitchen table edh for money, otherwise it's not real
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Mar 19, 2019 19:58
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:But wagering isn't part of the game of Magic. It is for poker. If the chips aren't worth anything, who cares? 50 "points" is the same as 1 "point" Ante is a core conceit of magic. The game disavows its existence now but mtg was made to be a wagering game. In fact I would say flip it or rip it is one of the purer ways to play magic.
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Mar 19, 2019 19:59
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admanb posted:You guys do know that tournament poker isn't played with each chip representing real money changing hands, right? You are missing the point. Each chip does have a value in your example, it's value is your likelihood to stay in the tournament and eventually cash-out.
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Mar 19, 2019 19:59
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WalrusWhiskers posted:This discussion of intentionally drawing in mtg tournaments reminds me of the chapter in Freakonomics on cheating in Sumo Wrestling. It turns out that in that sport, wrestlers will let the other competitor win if it's no skin of their backs and pivotally crucial for the opponent. The difference though is that they actually call this out as cheating. Though maybe we should be blaming the tournament system and incentives for this behavior rather than the individuals. People called it cheating because collusion is explicitly against the rules of sumo, IDs are within the rules of magic. I agree that concession/ID culture is loving stupid but it's endorsed by the current rules and absolutely not cheating. I'd love it if it were mandatory to play the matches out but the current system is what it is, and i'm not above turning down free money at the end of a long day. Owlbear Camus posted:I guess as a mostly casual dude who hasn't had to make the decision of more than like a take of 8 boosters at FNM; I'll just take the resident spike-adjacent posters' word that "No thank you, I'd prefer to play it out" makes you Literally Hitler. lol what. i don't know how you get "literally hitler" from people saying it's kind of rude and against your best interest. Also could there possibly be a reason that everyone who has actually been in a similar situation is saying it's smart to take the draw? Nah, better bust out the hitler references and keep pretending that the debate is about demanding to play out a fmn match for a few packs.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:00
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admanb posted:You guys do know that tournament poker isn't played with each chip representing real money changing hands, right? Right, but money is on the line, so each "unit" is representative of a fraction of your initial wager. If there is nothing of value on the line, there's no reason to not play almost every hand.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:01
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The last time I played Magic for ante was in my friend Adam's basement den and usually we'd trade back except he'd always tear up my Psychic Venoms right in front of me because he hated when I'd do that and use twiddle and icy manipulator so he couldn't play around the enchanted lands. He was so cross with that Magic card. I just looked up how much a Beta Psychic Venom went for expecting to find out he was ripping up potentially Jacksons in front of me but TCGlow is around 2 bucks.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:03
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Owlbear Camus posted:The last time I played Magic for ante was in my friend Adam's basement den and usually we'd trade back except he'd always tear up my Psychic Venoms right in front of me because he hated when I'd do that and use twiddle and icy manipulator so he couldn't play around the enchanted lands. He was so cross with that Magic card. that was a bull poo poo card for sure. your friend was right
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Mar 19, 2019 20:04
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Ante for Magic is silly anyhow. More likely to wager a basic land than anything of value
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Mar 19, 2019 20:04
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little munchkin posted:your friend was right to be upset and it was wrong for you to do that to his lands From my point of view it was wrong for him to Icy/Royal Assassin my Serra Angel.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:05
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Owlbear Camus posted:From my point of view it was wrong for him to Icy/Royal Assassin my Serra Angel. drat. really makes you think...
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Mar 19, 2019 20:06
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Ante for Magic is silly anyhow. More likely to wager a basic land than anything of value I bet the original Dr. Garfield notion was that it was a hedge against profligate players running a mana base of moxes or something. Sure, the competitive advantage would be tremendous, but you were risking a lot more than the white weenie with a bunch of plains and savannah lions and benaelish heros and stuff if you caught a bad beat against him. Makes a sort of sense when you imagine how it was conceived as this really arcane game where you might not even know what all the cards in a set were and any given game you saw something "new," and you couldn't just order net.dec with a grip of everything you wanted with next day shipping off TCGplayer. admanb posted:You can still play to win even if there's no cash prize. As if. I make my daughter stake in her allowance before I will hit the table against her tribal cat deck. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 20:11
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Right, but money is on the line, so each "unit" is representative of a fraction of your initial wager. You can still play to win even if there's no cash prize.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:12
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admanb posted:You can still play to win even if there's no cash prize. Why? The betting IS the game.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:14
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Why? The betting IS the game. I remember enjoying that Texas Hold 'em game with Brock Sampson and the Borderlands Robot and GLADOS as the dealer and stuff even though Valve never sent me a dime when I won (or billed me when I lost).
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Mar 19, 2019 20:17
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Why? The betting IS the game. In tournament-style Poker the betting is the path you take to winning the game by running your opponent out of money.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:18
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Why? The betting IS the game. Because humans are capable of abstraction. It’s still a game that plays exactly the same way if you play with chips and consider winning the prize for winning.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:20
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Why? The betting IS the game. Holy poo poo you're obtuse. Why? For position between the entrants. First place is still first place even if there's no money involved m
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Mar 19, 2019 20:21
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I’m assuming Magic had ante because Dr. Pheldagriff was taking tropes from pogs, marbles, and other schoolyard games
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Mar 19, 2019 20:21
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Commander? War of the Sparks planeswalkers? Both?
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Mar 19, 2019 20:24
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“Why not play badly?” Because it lowers your chance of winning. It’s fine if you don’t find winning to be sufficient motivation to play a game well, but you have to understand that other people do.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:24
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Holy poo poo you're obtuse. Why? For position between the entrants. First place is still first place even if there's no money involved m Oh word? I didn't understand that the person who came in first is in first place. If you're not betting SOMETHING of value, you're not playing poker. People play completely differently when nothing is at stake because the wagering is a key factor. They play hands they shouldn't play, they stay in when they should cut "losses", etc.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:30
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Oh word? I didn't understand that the person who came in first is in first place. Then the same thing is true for literally every game we play without a wager on it. There's nothing special about poker.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:32
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admanb posted:Then the same thing is true for literally every game we play without a wager on it. No because wagering isn't a part of every game. You can bet on the outcome of a game, but you don't bet midround on things happening
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Mar 19, 2019 20:33
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:No because wagering isn't a part of every game. You can bet on the outcome of a game, but you don't bet midround on things happening You're not betting on anything when you're playing tournament-style poker. There's no real money involved!
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Mar 19, 2019 20:34
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Also that's not even true! A ton of good Magic play is based on calculating the odds and making a play based on what your opponent has in their hand or what they or you could potentially draw. There's no difference between that and betting on a poker hand.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:36
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admanb posted:You're not betting on anything when you're playing tournament-style poker. There's no real money involved! That's true, the winner wins absolutely nothing and paid nothing to be there!
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Mar 19, 2019 20:37
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:That's true, the winner wins absolutely nothing and paid nothing to be there! Correct. "You can bet on the outcome of a game, but you don't bet midround on things happening" is an accurate statement for tournament poker.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:38
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admanb posted:Correct. "You can bet on the outcome of a game, but you don't bet midround on things happening" is an accurate statement for tournament poker. Psst the things you are betting are percentages of your buy in
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Mar 19, 2019 20:40
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this derail feels like a rejected bit from a tng episode where commander data asks riker why they play poker if there's no money anymore because they do space socialism and he chuckles and tries to explain feelings and the thrill of trying to read someone else's tells and stuff to the computer man.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:40
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You buy-in and have a potentially large win waiting for you at the end of tournament poker. If you just get together with friends and play with chips with no money involved the game is completely different.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:41
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admanb posted:You're not betting on anything when you're playing tournament-style poker. There's no real money involved! this is obviously incorrect and someone could spend several paragraphs explaining why, but there's no need because you only get to this conclusion if you're studiously ignoring everything about how poker works and if you're studiously ignoring that much, a few paragraphs aren't any trouble to ignore suffice to say: by having prizes for who wins, and having the chips you have currently directly impact how likely you are to win, the chips you are betting on any particular hand have a very real and tangible monetary value that is trivial to understand, even if calculating that value precisely in dollars would be somewhat difficult
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Mar 19, 2019 20:41
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Poker is really boring for no stakes, but if you're just playing with your buds it can be like, $5 into the pot.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:43
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:Psst the things you are betting are percentages of your buy in That's... not even remotely accurate. You can't pay more in to get more things to bet. You can't cash out of a game. Your pay out at the end isn't based on how many chips you have. Your buy in and your potential pay out are entirely disconnected from the resources you use to win or lose the event.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:44
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admanb posted:That's... not even remotely accurate. You can't pay more in to get more things to bet. You can't cash out of a game. Your pay out at the end isn't based on how many chips you have. Your buy in and your potential pay out are entirely disconnected from the resources you use to win or lose the event. Lol no one tell this guy about tournaments where you can buy back in
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Mar 19, 2019 20:45
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DariusLikewise posted:You buy-in and have a potentially large win waiting for you at the end of tournament poker. If you just get together with friends and play with chips with no money involved the game is completely different. For sure. In the same way that playing Magic for tournament stakes is very different from playing chill games with friends.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:45
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ChromiumCrush posted:Was there anything on the line, because playing Poker without putting something on the line doesn't make any sense at all. Ate My Balls Redux posted:But wagering isn't part of the game of Magic. It is for poker. If the chips aren't worth anything, who cares? 50 "points" is the same as 1 "point" Ate My Balls Redux posted:If you're not betting SOMETHING of value, you're not playing poker.
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Mar 19, 2019 21:01
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admanb posted:That's... not even remotely accurate. You can't pay more in to get more things to bet. You can't cash out of a game. Your pay out at the end isn't based on how many chips you have. Your buy in and your potential pay out are entirely disconnected from the resources you use to win or lose the event. What are you even talking about? Where? Show me these Poker tournaments where everyone is playing for funsies. You don't need to allow a player to buy back in. The Prize pool is what you are playing for, it's the same as cashing out. Your potential pay out is tied directly to the resources you use to win or lose. You can make believe that you are playing poker for fun and everyone is taking it just as seriously, but they aren't. Poker without something of value on the line simply isn't poker, it's a different game and it sounds boring. Poker strategy is tied to your potential cash-out. ChromiumCrush fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 21:03
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I don't ID because I play to win, and if I take a draw then I am not winning. I don't care if I gain literally nothing material from winning I'll still play to win, because that's what I do. That I don't win often is because I'm bad at the game.
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Mar 19, 2019 21:20
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