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Neddy Seagoon posted:No it wasn't, it was built specifically to kill Warcrimes. Big self-repairing mobile ones. yeah the Flauros predates Dansleifs being made illegal
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Mar 20, 2019 14:14
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No it wasn't, it was built specifically to kill Warcrimes. Big self-repairing mobile ones. Yeah, the ibo mobile armors are probably pretty high up on the list, given that priority targeting kn the one we see is to go after the largest group of civilians it can.
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Mar 20, 2019 14:27
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In terms of "this is actually, fully and knowingly a war crime suit," going to have to agree with GP-02 being the top slot. There are certainly suits with more potential - namely anything with a huge AoE attack that's more spammable than "carries one warhead" (the Satellite System comes to mind) - but that generally wasn't the specific reason for their creation. IBO mobile armors probably take the honorary spot, given they were also seemingly created purely for that purpose, but don't really feel like giving an actual AI-controlled robot the top slot. Divinidad, aside from the whole "technically the Jupiter Empire wasn't signatory to any war crime treaties" thing, also falls into the "this is ludicrously stupid and makes zero sense" category. Given a single one detonating itself (with payload still onboard and unused), anywhere on the planet, could apparently lifewipe the entire Earth. Not from anything exotic, mind, but purely due to its nuclear reactor and 16 onboard warheads exploding.
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Mar 20, 2019 18:25
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Lord Koth posted:In terms of "this is actually, fully and knowingly a war crime suit," going to have to agree with GP-02 being the top slot. There are certainly suits with more potential - namely anything with a huge AoE attack that's more spammable than "carries one warhead" (the Satellite System comes to mind) - but that generally wasn't the specific reason for their creation. 16 nukes seems a little light in the payload to apocalypse the planet.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:02
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I was going to say that Nuclear Winter's a hell of a thing and a large enough mushroom cloud could probably do it. But according to the wiki the explosion would eliminate all life on earth through radiation alone which.. uhh... That's a hell of a lot of radiation.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:20
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I mean, the Wing Zero was specifically designed to destroy colonies (and, presumably, cities), and literally sends its pilot into a paranoid berserker rage, so I'd put it up there with the Physalis. The Mobile Armours do also deserve mention because (a) they're just low-key guerrilla versions of the Divinidads designed to wipe planets clean, and (b) they're fitted with both nanolaminate armour and beam weapons, which implies that their designers knew exactly what they were doing by giving them weapons that only worked against unarmoured civilians (and generated enormous collateral damage when used against armoured targets). The Destroy Gundam is also seriously warcrimey since it's designed as a short-lived city-killing suicide weapon with a dying, insane child (the default state for Extended) as its pilot.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:31
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I'm not sure if it qualifies as the most but I feel like enslaving a soul puts EXAM units up there
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Mar 20, 2019 20:39
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Come to think of it, I have no idea how you'd categorise the Gaga in war crime terms.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:41
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ImpAtom posted:I'm not sure if it qualifies as the most but I feel like enslaving a soul puts EXAM units up there Crime against humanity at least. I think there's an argument to be made that the GP02 doesn't really count because the treaty wasn't signed by Zeon Remnants who are not considered the successors to the Principality. But it's still pretty war crimey. Divinidad and Rafflesia would be my picks. The GP02 is just a specialized unit designed to use nuclear weapons but it's effectively just a specialized weapons platform rather than Divinidad's complete destruction of humanity with backups and poo poo built in, or Rafflesia basically carrying a completely new and unexplored method (for UC) for killing civilians. Like, they probably looked at poison gas as too messy and presents a future risk, but autonomous robots that'll just crash around everywhere and grind humans into chunks? That's loving fantastic.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:55
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I think developing the EXAM system itself is a war crime, since it's horrifying and inhumane, but the unit carrying it wasn't specifically designed to commit more, so I don't know if that counts. The GP-02 was definitely designed to be only good at one thing, and that one thing is a direct war crime (sneak nuclear assault in violation of a treaty that the Federation signed before they built it), so it's up there. I'd still have to give it to the Wing Zero though, since the original plan for Operation Meteor (and honestly, most of the revised one they actually went through with, too) was just straight up terrorism, and they built a Gundam that can one-shot entire colonies to support it.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:09
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Argas posted:Crime against humanity at least. Ok, not warcrimes. Terrorism.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:16
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ANAmal.net posted:I think developing the EXAM system itself is a war crime, since it's horrifying and inhumane, but the unit carrying it wasn't specifically designed to commit more, so I don't know if that counts. Basically agree. If you removed the EXAM system from the Ifreet and the BD series they'd just be no worse than any other mobile suit.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:34
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Blaze Dragon posted:But Grazes weren't built for that, that was a later addition. The Grazes that did that had an entire arm replaced with a launcher. They were built for it, unlike stock Grazes, and built while it was an active war crime. Rustal isn't anywhere near the war-crimeiest Gundam villain, but he is the best at them.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:36
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chiasaur11 posted:The Grazes that did that had an entire arm replaced with a launcher. They were built for it, unlike stock Grazes, and built while it was an active war crime. That said, Grazes are extremely modular, so it was probably more like a new set of optional parts they built for their Graze fleet.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:37
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Remember Rustal had one of his men sneak into the enemy ranks and fire off a Dainslief at one of his own men so he could justify his warcrime. So it's like a double warcrime.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:44
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Thanks goons, today I learned about the actual plot of Crossbone and F91.
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Mar 21, 2019 02:15
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Kurieg posted:Remember Rustal had one of his men sneak into the enemy ranks and fire off a Dainslief at one of his own men so he could justify his warcrime. So it's like a double warcrime. Iok faked a theft of a Deinslief, planted it on a transport ship, and used it as justification to murder unarmed and fleeing civilians. He accomplished this by working with a known criminal. He then ignored a call for cease fire and an outright surrender in order to kill even more people. Iok also woke up the warcrime bird robot and consistently hosed up luring it towards population centers.
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Mar 21, 2019 13:53
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Whoever actually built the War Crime Bird definitely has to be on the high score table.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:00
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God, Iok sucked so bad. Of all the Seven Stars he seemed like the shittiest failson that didn't deserve to be in charge of anything (including McGillis, who definitely sucked, but somehow wasn't nearly as annoying).
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Mar 21, 2019 14:22
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The show does spend time trying to contrast McGillis and Iok. McGillis is perfectly willing to sacrifice his soldiers... because they're soldiers. A lot of his character is shaped by how he grew up, an unwanted barely acknowledged bastard. He knows full well that he doesn't deserve the unwavering loyalty he gets from his soldiers but he appreciates it regardless. Iok doesn't deserve the unwavering loyalty from his soldiers, but he expects it because he's a Kujan. He is nobility, literally everyone else is beneath him and thus they are beneath contempt.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:49
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Deinslief's aren't really all that warcrime-y, it's just that the Seven Stars didn't want anyone that wasn't them having cool toys that might actually be effective against one of their big shiny battleships. Also the only true Deinslief we actually see was the Flauro's running off a twin Ahab Reactor setup. The Graze ones are "merely" a big fancy mass-accelerated crossbow.
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Mar 21, 2019 16:30
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Deinslief's aren't really all that warcrime-y, it's just that the Seven Stars didn't want anyone that wasn't them having cool toys that might actually be effective against one of their big shiny battleships. Also the only true Deinslief we actually see was the Flauro's running off a twin Ahab Reactor setup. The Graze ones are "merely" a big fancy mass-accelerated crossbow. Dainsleifs are the giant frame-alloy spears. They can be fired from a variety of launchers, all of which are 'true' because they can shoot Dainsleifs.
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Mar 21, 2019 16:46
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Ironically the massive orbital dainslief bombardment in the last episode probably should have been more destructive than pictured in the show.
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Mar 21, 2019 16:52
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The Rafflesia and its flying genocide buzzsaws have to be in the top 5 gundam warcrimes
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Mar 21, 2019 18:13
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On a criminal negligence angle, I nominate whoever designed the Leo for mass production and replaced its titanium armour with a composite layer of MDF and wet cardboard.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:32
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jackhunter64 posted:On a criminal negligence angle, I nominate whoever designed the Leo for mass production and replaced its titanium armour with a composite layer of MDF and wet cardboard. Look, mass-production is expensive. Some sacrifices have to be made.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:33
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Why pad the Leo's power pack with dynamite then? That does not seem cost effective to me.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:44
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"Sir I'm looking at the chemical formula for the Leo Fuel cells and.. uhh.. how many Nitrogen atoms is this?" "eighty-seven."
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Mar 21, 2019 18:49
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Kurieg posted:The show does spend time trying to contrast McGillis and Iok. McGillis is perfectly willing to sacrifice his soldiers... because they're soldiers. A lot of his character is shaped by how he grew up, an unwanted barely acknowledged bastard. He knows full well that he doesn't deserve the unwavering loyalty he gets from his soldiers but he appreciates it regardless. McGillis's backstory is so much worse than just "unwanted barely acknowledged bastard". He was adopted by the head of the Fareed family to be a live-in child sex slave.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:13
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Anshu posted:McGillis's backstory is so much worse than just "unwanted barely acknowledged bastard". He was adopted by the head of the Fareed family to be a live-in child sex slave.  I uhh.. Missed that.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:42
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Yeah, season 2 got pretty dark.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:50
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That's another mark against Rustal and the rest of the Seven Stars because they clearly could see what was happening to young McGillis and others, and looked the other way. We even see Iznario with an almost identical boy near the end of the first series, gone full Michael Jackson with a constantly rotating entourage of young victims.
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Mar 21, 2019 20:03
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Kurieg posted:The show does spend time trying to contrast McGillis and Iok. McGillis is perfectly willing to sacrifice his soldiers... because they're soldiers. A lot of his character is shaped by how he grew up, an unwanted barely acknowledged bastard. He knows full well that he doesn't deserve the unwavering loyalty he gets from his soldiers but he appreciates it regardless. Oh, Iok appreciates it. That's the funniest part. He's constantly loving everything up because he owes his men a debt of honor to avenge them. And in so doing, he just fucks things up worse, defying the wishes of his men that he just, you know, go home and learn how to do his job right. Meanwhile, Rustal's as quick to use people as McGillis, but unlike McGillis, he's up front about it. Like "I'm going to need you to die for me. Is that going to be a problem?" levels of up front. And apparently, for most of them, it isn't. (There's also an interesting parallel with McGillis and Julieta, as they're both the blonde adopted heirs of a cynical and manipulative Gjallarhorn head who's also watching over an idealistic idiot trueborn heir to another house. They've just got so much of the rest of the setup reversed it's crazy. Iok's much bastardier than Carta, Rustal tries to be a good father figure, Julieta's a straightforward and honorable soldier for the entrenched system while McGillis is a manipulative would-be reformer, and Rustal props up the system where Izanio undermines it.)
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Mar 21, 2019 22:17
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Kurieg posted:
Welcome to IBO. Say what you will about other Gundam, it has the highest warcrime density of the franchise. Sex slaves, chattel slavery, child soldiers, targeting non-combatants, false-flag operations, genocide robots, this one has it ALL.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:34
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Either the english dub downplayed the child rape or they mentioned it while I was distracted, then. Because I did watch Season 2 not too long ago. It does give a bit more 'umph' to McGillis' hero worship of the Bael and his desire to see Gjallarhorn torn down to the foundation.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:36
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Kurieg posted:Either the english dub downplayed the child rape or they mentioned it while I was distracted, then. Because I did watch Season 2 not too long ago. They don't SPECIFICALLY say it. There's just a scene where child McGillis, clearly naked, is getting up from a bed that is clearly not his. Also I think he's got some questionable bruising on his body. It's something like a 3 second screen. I'll look for it when I get home from work. But yes, he has VERY good reasons for wanting to turbofuck the entire system, but he's a fundamentally broken person. So Rustal ends up playing him like a fiddle, on top of his entire viewpoint being at odds with the political reality.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:39
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One of my favorite parts of Season 2 is just the destruction of McGillis as a character especially after he spends the last fleeting moments of S1 coming across as a mastermind.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:40
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An important thing to understand about McGillis is that he's almost completely lacking in empathy and in love with the Great Man theory of history. He's not a sadist or an overtly terrible boss, it's just that he has real difficulty pretending to be interested in the act of leadership or in the fates of the people under him. Ordering his men to evacuate before his last stand was a kindness, yes, but it was also clear that he genuinely believed he'd fight better alone like a storybook hero. Rustal will sacrifice his troops as necessary, but he's a genius at knowing how to get the absolute most out of them, and you can believe he knows and remembers the names and faces of everyone who died under his command. I don't think Julietta dying would have broken his composure, but it would have required him to schedule an hour alone in his office with his guards elsewhere so he didn't have to keep up his composure.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:41
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McGillis is a broken child who never grew up and still believes in fairy tale knights who're going to swoop in and save the entire world, him included. It's why his genius plan revolves entirely around "I got in the robot so now you have to obey me!"
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Mar 21, 2019 23:24
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The way IBO reflects on how hosed up real world is, specifically to people in position of absolute power over the masses; this is why it should be in your favorite series next to Zeta, 0080, Turn A and 00
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Mar 21, 2019 23:28
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