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I agree with that. So it would be a short wait  Maybe we could merge all the right wing rags togther but take out everything except the sex line adverts.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:14
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Yeah, I'm not at all an SNP fan as I'm sure the actual Nats in the thread can attest. Doesn't change that there's some shite spouted by people who couldn't point to Fort William on a map which is endlessly tedious to have to read. Almost makes me turn into a Nat just to not have to be in the same country as these bores but lol then you're still in a country with hundreds of thousands of Rangers fans from Inverness and Elgin and Perth and Hamilton and Ayr and Aberdeen. Not to mention Douglas Ross and his ilk.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:14
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Total Meatlove posted:So if Article 50 is revoked the result is legitimate again? It wouldn't change its legitimacy, which nobody disputed, but 'actually, Britain isn't locked into a far right imperialism suicide pact driven by its cultural demons and its refusal to confront the legacy of the Empire' would probably change the calculus, yes
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Mar 25, 2019 11:15
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marktheando posted:We only formed the UK because Scottish rich fuckers wanted to get in on English Imperialism, what's the point of it now? No, the UK formed because Scottish rich fuckers wanted their own imperialism, hosed it up and bankrupted the country.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:16
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lol just lol if you think we live in anything other than an oligocracy of the obscenely rich Nations are just a convenient construct they keep around so we'll hate each other over imaginary lines, they've stopped actually mattering a long time ago
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Mar 25, 2019 11:16
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Jedit posted:No, the UK formed because Scottish rich fuckers wanted their own imperialism, hosed it up and bankrupted the country. It was sabotaged by the English, we could have built that canal.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:18
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Regarde Aduck posted:In fact, ignoring the EU, every major power is currently pretty lovely and amoral at best. Jedit posted:No, the UK formed because Scottish rich fuckers wanted their own imperialism, hosed it up and bankrupted the country.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:19
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Total Meatlove posted:I support the rights of all peoples to self determination I just don't see how this 'right' isn't nonsensical. I mean why does it apply to "Scottish people", for example, and not "Cambridge", or "my book club"?
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Mar 25, 2019 11:21
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Coohoolin posted:apparently pointing out that british nationalism is a bit of a unique english problem means that scottish independence is actually a nazi plot (this thread has literally seen people unironically go "hmm national... socialists???" about the SNP) I don't recall that. I do recall the leader of the SNP in 1940 looking at Germany and thinking "hmm, national... socialists" though. And that's the charitable interpretation. Guavanaut posted:That was GB, the UK was formed to have more direct ways of being to Ireland. Unless marktheando is saying that the Irish occupation was the idea of the Scots, in which case gently caress Scottish Nationalists, then he's talking about Great Britain. In which case, gently caress Scottish Nationalists because that one actually is their fault. Jedit fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 11:21
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tbh i get the scottish grievances - the english are awful people, and ludicrously self-centered as a culture, and having to deal with that must be impossibly annoying. labour's failure to adequately represent scotland due to the same triangulatory bullshit logic as led them to abandon the working class was a real betrayal realistically i really don't think separatism is the answer though, i really doubt that it'll solve much of anything
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Mar 25, 2019 11:22
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Jedit posted:I don't recall that. I do recall the leader of the SNP in 1940 looking at Germany and thinking "hmm, national... socialists" though. And that's the charitable interpretation. Oh dear me posted:I just don't see how this 'right' isn't nonsensical. I mean why does it apply to "Scottish people", for example, and not "Cambridge", or "my book club"? 
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Mar 25, 2019 11:24
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edit gently caress it
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Mar 25, 2019 11:25
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Jedit posted:I don't recall that. I do recall Hey, I too can play 'one man from the forties means you're a Nazi'
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Mar 25, 2019 11:25
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Total Meatlove posted:So if Article 50 is revoked the result is legitimate again? Behind door number 1 is 'Staying part of the UK because EU membership is awesome and good. No thanks to independance, we are in a union of equals and we should strengthen it." Behind door number 2 is, "Let's leave the UK and take back control of our money, our borders, our future. We'll sort the EU business out later." You step through door number one. On the other side is David Cameron saying, "About that EU membership." Oh, and after he's hummed away from you, and you say, "Scotland doesn't want this," to be told, "Well, we voted as a whole union. It doesn't matter you voted remain. And gently caress your suggestions about how this will go, the people decided and we will talk in Westminster." The reason you stepped through door number 1 is to keep part of the EU and to bolster Scotland's voice as part of the UK. That voice has been mocked, denied, ignored and patronized. Door one promised a stronger voice within the union, better together, all that rot. And it turns out the people on the other loving side are trying to convince you that when faced with these two doors again in matters of the EU that one would be awfully justified to take back control of your money, borders, future, that only a complete moron would choose door number 1 to strengthen their power within the union. Do as I say, not as I do. If article 50 is revoked it doesn't make the result somehow legitimate, but it does make the question being asked extremely pertinent to ask again. Conditions have changed and hypocrisy has been exposed. The UK is not a union of equals if Scotland is ignored, and the ultimatums that the UK is placing upon Scotland is like hearing an abusing spouse sharpening knives in the kitchen. They might be carving a turkey, or they could just carve you up. Either way, the door looks pretty loving good and those sharp sounds don't sound inviting. Especially when they are mixed with, "Respect the will of the people," and outright lies about how, "You'd have to convert to the Euro if you leave this house!" Which people's will should be respected?
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Mar 25, 2019 11:25
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i am generally a pretty affable poster, i get on with most of the snp supporters itt. some of the snp politicians seem very competent and i very strongly suspect that if labour ever gets in again it will be via a coalition, something i am entirely comfortable with. i think regional parties are a fine idea, and a very effective way of ensuring a region is represented and isn't marginalized. that is not the same thing as tolerating nationalism. you have to understand, when someone talks about civic nationalism that sounds to my ear like "enhanced interrogation" . we will not make things better by being worse.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:27
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Obliterati posted:Hey, I too can play 'one man from the forties means you're a Nazi' If you're trying to argue that thinking the Nazis were socialist doesn't mean you're a fascist, you might want to pick a better example than the leader of the BUF.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:27
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Obliterati posted:Hey, I too can play 'one man from the forties means you're a Nazi'
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Mar 25, 2019 11:28
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Jedit posted:If you're trying to argue that thinking the Nazis were socialist doesn't mean you're a fascist, you might want to pick a better example than the leader of the BUF. No, I'm referring to his fifteen years in the Labour Party
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Mar 25, 2019 11:28
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V. Illych L. posted:realistically i really don't think separatism is the answer though, i really doubt that it'll solve much of anything If it allows Scottish people to remain in the EU, then I'm all for separatism. Scottish people voted 62% to remain, and the prior referendum to remain part of the UK was in part won by the promise of guaranteed EU membership.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:29
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david cameron really hosed the country didn't he
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Mar 25, 2019 11:29
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So what's the plan for the week? Are they going to ask Bercow for another vote tomorrow? Or are they going to sit on their hands and pray?
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Mar 25, 2019 11:29
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh i get the scottish grievances - the english are awful people, and ludicrously self-centered as a culture, and having to deal with that must be impossibly annoying. labour's failure to adequately represent scotland due to the same triangulatory bullshit logic as led them to abandon the working class was a real betrayal The English aren't especially awful people - people, however, are generally awful and poo poo, no matter where you are in the world, and people being poo poo, having people have power over other people is the worst idea ever, and will result in such situations. The anarchist mantra of spreading power around as much as possible so no one has much of it is, IMO, the real way to go around things Too bad psychopaths are really good at accumulating power and once you have power, you can very easily keep it and keep accumulating more and more, creating dynasties and poo poo
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Mar 25, 2019 11:30
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Obliterati posted:No, I'm referring to his fifteen years in the Labour Party
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Mar 25, 2019 11:30
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh i get the scottish grievances - the english are awful people, and ludicrously self-centered as a culture, and having to deal with that must be impossibly annoying. labour's failure to adequately represent scotland due to the same triangulatory bullshit logic as led them to abandon the working class was a real betrayal OwlFancier posted:english is an equally stupid identity when people who aren't it use it. It describes no useful political, cultural, ethnic or geographic trend and barely qualifies as a linguistic one.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:31
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V. Illych L. posted:david cameron really hosed the country didn't he Also a severed pig's head. Let's never forget that. Nor that Boris reportedly still has the photo locked away somewhere to prove it. Has he published his book yet?
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Mar 25, 2019 11:31
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Guavanaut posted:That all occurred before 1933. Still makes him a poo poo, but more a Kate Hoey level poo poo than what he was post-Labour. No dispute here, but the point remains: Mosley's membership of Labour doesn't make any current member a Nazi, though I do hope Jedit uses this line loudly and ponderously at all public events they attend
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Mar 25, 2019 11:32
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V. Illych L. posted:david cameron really hosed the country didn't he The ultimate pig in lipstick was the UK, and Cameron couldn't resist fuctifino posted:If it allows Scottish people to remain in the EU, then I'm all for separatism. A wise and learned judge
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Mar 25, 2019 11:32
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Steve2911 posted:So what's the plan for the week? Are they going to ask Bercow for another vote tomorrow? Or are they going to sit on their hands and pray? May is currently briefing the cabinet, there'll be a Downing Street briefing at 12:30, and some time after 3:30 May will speak to the commons as to what's going to happen, after which there'll be responses to her, and then some time after five her motion will be debated and voted on for the rest of the day.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:32
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fuctifino posted:If it allows Scottish people to remain in the EU, then I'm all for separatism. it almost certainly won't. spain and france have their own separatist movements to deal with, and even if they thought it funny to partition the UK they have excellent reasons to impose some rather onerous conditions in independent scotland further, you'd have to build up a whole new civil service and sort out all sorts of stuff. the trauma would be like brexit, but worse
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Mar 25, 2019 11:33
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Mr.Tophat posted:A wise and learned judge I'm just someone with very loud and opinionated Scottish friends. I also happen to agree with their point of view, because they are right. e: V. Illych L. posted:it almost certainly won't. spain and france have their own separatist movements to deal with, and even if they thought it funny to partition the UK they have excellent reasons to impose some rather onerous conditions in independent scotland You lost. Deal with it. In means In.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:34
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V. Illych L. posted:it almost certainly won't. spain and france have their own separatist movements to deal with, and even if they thought it funny to partition the UK they have excellent reasons to impose some rather onerous conditions in independent scotland Just to note a Scottish civil service already exists - it predates devolution as the Scotland Office. Obviously though there are many functions they don't do.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:34
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V. Illych L. posted:it almost certainly won't. spain and france have their own separatist movements to deal with, and even if they thought it funny to partition the UK they have excellent reasons to impose some rather onerous conditions in independent scotland Nothing is as bad as a disorderly Brexit. Death is certain. Self preservation is judging if you can make another pan instead of the fire when the person holding that pan is going to toss the lot into the fire anyway while saying, "Leave means leave."
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Mar 25, 2019 11:36
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V. Illych L. posted:it almost certainly won't. spain and france have their own separatist movements to deal with, and even if they thought it funny to partition the UK they have excellent reasons to impose some rather onerous conditions in independent scotland yeah that's a point, they would block fast-tracking accession just to set precedent
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Mar 25, 2019 11:36
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fuctifino posted:I'm just someone with very loud and opinionated Scottish friends. I also happen to agree with their point of view, because they are right. eh? i'm making a general case against independence, i don't see myself citing any referendum result in that argument
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Mar 25, 2019 11:37
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I think it'd be easier to see Scottish independence as a good thing if the SNP were at all realistic about the benefits/costs. All I seem to see is it being touted as the answer to everyone's prayers that comes with absolutely no downsides, and a fairly recent referendum where the Yes side tried to obfuscate and waffle on such critically important issues like the currency. Until I can understand it as a genuine proposition instead of a political project pushed ahead without regard for the consequences its hard to give it a fair hearing.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:38
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I mean if you suggested in the independance referendum that Scotland would have to draw up something akin to Operation Yellowstone and you'd be called an alarmist, a doomsayer. Now if you remind people that Operation Yellowstone exists and that Scotland might not want anything to do with it, suddenly Scotland leaving the UK is a more alarming prospect to whatever hellscape vision of the future no deal brexit is.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:39
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Absorbing a lot of posts here, but if the SNP are lefties, they'd happily back a Corbyn-led UK government if it came to it, as it would benefit Scottish people as much as anyone else, and the SNP would put their people ahead of their own desires. If they're not lefties and Corbyn doesn't support/offer another Indy ref, a la Cameron and Brexit in 2015, they'll happily tell him to gently caress off as they would anyone else. If that scenario never comes up then it's all pointless triangulation.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:39
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Obliterati posted:No dispute here, but the point remains: Mosley's membership of Labour doesn't make any current member a Nazi, though I do hope Jedit uses this line loudly and ponderously at all public events they attend The difference being that Mosley was Labour before he was a fascist and made his remarks as a fascist. I'll blame Labour as much for him as I'll blame them for Michael Gove, who is also ex-Labour. Douglas Young not only made his remarks as a member of the SNP but as the leader of the Party.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:41
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V. Illych L. posted:eh? i'm making a general case against independence, i don't see myself citing any referendum result in that argument And I'm citing a major factor behind the current wave of pro-independence mindsets in both Scotland and NI. Both voted by a far greater %% majority to remain in the EU than the overall result percentage voted to leave. Scotland especially voted to remain. 62% is more than three out of every five people. That's a lot. It's relevant to the overall discussion. If they can find a way to get off of Titanic Britain, then good luck to them.
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Mar 25, 2019 11:41
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So I suppose I'm then curious, what is the Sindy argument against federalism, in favour of a full break?
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Mar 25, 2019 11:43
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