|
Rustybear posted:What are the actual 'scotland-specific' issues lab/scotlab are failing to understand? I get that they're lovely blairite holdouts but the answer to that is more corbyn surely. Is the 2017 lab manifesto that objectionable to scotland? Things like education, health etc are all devolved. Corbyn has no direct influence on them and anglo-centric bit of Labour never talks about them. Scottish Labour are in an unenviable position as: 1. It's almost impossible to out "more for Scotland" the nats without either annoying other voters or opening lines for other nationalist/nostalgist attack. 2. They have failed to differentiate their idea of national identity from the Tories. 3.. All their best people are in London doing anglo-centric stuff. That doesn't mean they aren't right to call out the SNP on their history - let's face it the SNP probably rely more on a nostalgic appeal to history than any other party - but people are right to say that Labour have offered no vision for Scotland's future. The one thing they have going for them is that the SNP used to have that vision sewn up but the veil has slipped somewhat so there is space to play in. If I was a Labour strategist I would honestly be sending half of the party machine to Scotland to confine Ian Murray to his constituency (preferably just his constituency office) and start rolling some ideas out. In fact I would have done it a year ago. Hate sniping - 411 is directory inquiries in the US. Probably costs about 100 bucks. Is that how you spell bucks?
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 17:34 |
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:The one thing people hate up here is the the idea that England is more important so whatever we want we have to just suck it up because it might make things harder down there. There's an implicit message of 'our needs are more important than yours' in that, and a perception of that attitude is what a lot of Nat support is built on. Computer, show me socially liberal, fiscally conservative. 'No Nationality' t-shirt, €59
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:39
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:The agreement between the DUP and Conservatives was a confidence and supply arrangement, which was also specifically ruled out by Corbyn. While I personally would like the Labour Party to consider electoral pacts, I'm not sure what any other arrangement really offers Labour. Can the SNP really afford to vote against leftwing policies?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:40
|
|
|
I don't understand, does Scotland have the ability to swing national elections or not. if it does then Scotland isn't under the jackboot of english tyranny; if it doesn't then it's not under any more obligation to vote for the good guys than anywhere else. Only one of these can be true.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:40
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:lol election season is on and it's getting salty already This is a pretty weird strategy to say that the SNP have propped up the Tories. Scottish Labour voters love the tories, probably better for Corbyn to boast about all the Scottish councils where Labour is in coalition with the Tories.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:40
|
|
|
FiftySeven posted:This is the question I ask my Scottish SNP voting mates and I never get a concrete answer. In fact, several of them actually say that they have nothing against Corbyn or anything, but they just want independence because they do. Nat rhetoric is generally carefully positioned somewhere between "scotland is the victim and scotnat is like the ANC" and "scotland is tired of being ruled by the bloody sassenachs" while studiously denying both those postions. Now me being uncharitable I'd suggest that's because they know both of those positions sound bad, but it leaves them without a concrete positive position because it's really hard to argue nationalism without pitching either nativism or material oppression. So you get lots of "scotland is powerless" (assuming "scotland" has legitimacy as a political entity and isn't in the position of all other similarly sized groups of people in the UK) or "it says in the act of union..." (which is definitely different from all the other types of nationalist historical justifications) or "it's actually just civic nationalism" (we're not being exclusionary because we're offering amnesty before we put the border up). I'd suggest that not being able to commit to an actual position is probably indicative of people being at heart fairly decent, because they should rightly feel weird about advocating the nationalist position as a left winger. So your mates are probably alright. But I think that's why you'll struggle to get a positive statement out of them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:41
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Nat rhetoric is generally carefully positioned somewhere between "scotland is the victim and scotnat is like the ANC" and "scotland is tired of being ruled by the bloody sassenachs" while studiously denying both those postions. Unsure whether to correct you or offer to pay your costs campaigning for No next time
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:42
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:While I broadly agree they'd win far more friends up here by taking a less hostile line towards the pro-indy lobby (not all of who are nationalists). The one thing people hate up here is the the idea that England is more important so whatever we want we have to just suck it up because it might make things harder down there. There's an implicit message of 'our needs are more important than yours' in that, and a perception of that attitude is what a lot of Nat support is built on. Accepting that Scotland has the right to hold referendums on its future at it's own leisure would do more to ensure any such referendum failed in the future than anything else. I agree that it's for Scotland to decide. It's not fair to make their decisions on a referendum from the outside. Nor are Scotland obliged to consider the rest of the union in their voting. It's just a statement of my worry that were Scotland to take this decision it'd hurt our left, and also to understand (though not excuse) why Labour acts the way it does. I'm with you that accepting Scotland's right to hold a referendum is key. Personally from what I've read here I'd have it that Scotland's own parliament could have sole right to bring about a referendum on this issue. However for a campaign I'd want to frame the issue that we do have the combined strength to fight the Tories together and be a larger, stronger, fairer nation. From England: I understand if you want to go, but we're ready to fight together if you want to stay. I now get it: indyref and attempts to promote coalition are the way forward. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Mar 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:42
|
|
|
Every single person who would buy that shirt has a relatively powerful passport backed by a nationality they have the privilege of claiming to have little regard for. Actual stateless people usually can't blow €60 on a t-shirt. It's pretty tacky.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:43
|
|
|
Feel free to make the carefully navigated case for independence if you want to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:43
|
|
|
Rustybear posted:Not trying to say independence doesn't look tempting given the housefire that is westminster politics rn just that it seems like the interests of the average working person in say Manchester and Glasgow still largely align? Yes absolutely, which is why I don't personally think independence is a good idea now (even though I voted yes first time round). Corbyn changed the landscape. Back at the timeof the indyref we were stuck with Miliband and the promise of more third way garbage at best. Splitting up the UK then was appealing because 1) we could build a new country, and maybe make it better (optimistic I know) and 2) almost more importantly, ripping up the UK on Cameron's watch would absolutely destroy the Tory party and revitalise the English left too. At the time it seemed like a desperate but worthwhile gambit. While Corbyn's doing his thing I wouldn't vote Indy again, because I agree with you, but I think approving the principle of self-determination in Scotland would be a welcome fig leaf that would win a lot of people back over. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:43
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Feel free to make the carefully navigated case for independence if you want to. £20/hr sound good?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:44
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:Every single person who would buy that shirt has a relatively powerful passport backed by a nationality they have the privilege of claiming to have little regard for.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:47
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:Yes absolutely, which is why I don't personally think independence is a good idea now (even though I voted yes first time round). Corbyn changed the landscape. Back at the timeof the indyref we were stuck with Miliband and the promise of more third way garbage at best. Splitting up the UK then was appealing because 1) we could build a new country, and maybe make it better (optimistic I know) and 2) almost more importantly, ripping the UK on Cameron's watch would absolutely destroy the Tory party and revitalise the English left too. At the time it seemed like a desperate but worthwhile gambit. Funny I'm completely the other way round. I couldn't vote in referendum but would have voted no. Without EU membership yes appeals more although I can see it would still be extremely problematic. I think for the average voter it will appeal a lot less. Too much upheaval in too little time. FYI I live in London but was born in Dundee and lived between there and Edinburgh for 27 years. Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Mar 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:47
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:I agree that it's for Scotland to decide. It's not fair to make their decisions on a referendum from the outside. Nor are Scotland obliged to consider the rest of the union in their voting. It's just a statement of my worry that were Scotland to take this decision it'd hurt our left, and also to understand (though not excuse) why Labour acts the way it does. I'm with you that accepting Scotland's right to hold a referendum is key. Personally from what I've read here I'd have it that Scotland's own parliament could have sole right to bring about a referendum on this issue. My only ask is that, if Scotland did leave, it'd consider allowing UK counties on the border to hold votes on whether they join Scotland.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:48
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:While I personally would like the Labour Party to consider electoral pacts, I'm not sure what any other arrangement really offers Labour. Can the SNP really afford to vote against leftwing policies? That’s not really my point, I’m seeking to answer the question of “why does the SNP attack Labour when they have a lot of similar policies” by pointing out that Labour have been hostile to the SNP raising the prospect of formal cooperation in the past. You can’t really complain that a political party opposes you if you oppose them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:49
|
|
|
Instead of offering a referendum on independence, Labour could offer one on increased devolution + federalism. Even that would probably be enough to win over a good chunk of protest vote nats while not risking the UK as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:50
|
|
|
This come up yet? https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1111240165601759233?s=19 Unbundling her future plans from the withdrawal agreement may help knock it over the line for some "brexit in some form" people
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:51
|
|
|
TheRat posted:Looks like you're right Wait so they're just cutting out the #goals document and that lets them bring back the vote again? so now we lose this quote:The Parties recall their determination to replace the backstop solution on Northern Ireland
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:52
|
|
|
AceOfFlames posted:I consider myself European to the point that I would definitely buy this shirt if it wasnt so hideously expensive and a brand name: find a union printing shop near you and have them make one
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:53
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:Every single person who would buy that shirt has a relatively powerful passport backed by a nationality they have the privilege of claiming to have little regard for. Tbf the BRAND is called "No Nationality", though for some reason they mostly abbreviate it to "NN07". Dunno if it makes it better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:53
|
|
|
kustomkarkommando posted:This come up yet? Which bits constitute the withdrawal agreement, and which bits are they voting on tomorrow?
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:53
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:My only ask is that, if Scotland did leave, it'd consider allowing UK counties on the border to hold votes on whether they join Scotland. There is a simple solution to both the Brexit and independence mess. England and Wales should leave the United Kingdom. Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Mar 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:55
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:Wait so they're just cutting out the #goals document and that lets them bring back the vote again? That paragraph is in the text of the Withdrawal Agreement also, it's just reiterated in the Future Declaration
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:56
|
|
|
^^^ well yeah the whole thing is in the WA, I just thought it was funny that the backstop is the main sticking point and what's being dropped is something that makes assurances that we'll try not to have it... feels like desperationspiderbot posted:Which bits constitute the withdrawal agreement, and which bits are they voting on tomorrow? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration you can just read the explainers, but it would be quicker to read the future relationship one and see it's basically "we're definitely gonna try for a good relationship in these areas". The WA is the stuff about actually breaking from the EU and what we need to move towards, unless we negotiate something else during the transition period. That's why the backstop protocol is in the WA
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:57
|
|
|
Well more exactly the WA has "intention" rather than "determination"
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:57
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:Wait so they're just cutting out the #goals document and that lets them bring back the vote again? Yeah, I don’t get this at all, wasn’t the political agreement specifically crafted to allay parliament’s concerns regarding the backstop? How does removing that make it any more likely to pass? I understand this might just be the government reaching for something, anything to let them vote again, but it will never pass like this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
Zalakwe posted:There is a simple solution to both the Brexit and independence mess. England and Wales should leave the United Kingdom. OwlFancier posted:"scotland is the victim and scotnat is like the ANC"
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
crispix posted:It is ironic and very inconvenient that Scottish Labour became the last holdout of power for Blairite shitheads. If it is the case that that can only be changed by a powerful grassroots movement in Scotland then you have a problem because a big portion of the marginalised people whose energy and votes you need for that will likely have already been sold the idea that independence is the solution to their problems imo scotlab isnt run by blairites anymore afaik? theyr leftier than that just really bad and unconvincing also lmao that i got Scotlab leader's name wrong, i was completely at a loss and googled first Richard Murphy, who is good, then Jim Murphy, who is gone. then finally paul leonard who doesnt exist. its actually Richard Leonard a super forgettable name for a super forgettable guy. im pretty sure i voted for him in the leadership election because he was the only one positioning himself as pro-corbyn. well oops also this is his wikipedia pic lol 
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:Yeah, I don’t get this at all, wasn’t the political agreement specifically crafted to allay parliament’s concerns regarding the backstop? How does removing that make it any more likely to pass? Watch as it accidentally passes and the EU says it's not good enough
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:Yeah, I don’t get this at all, wasn’t the political agreement specifically crafted to allay parliament’s concerns regarding the backstop? How does removing that make it any more likely to pass? It was widely acknowledged to be completely worthless, so there is that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1111281817385095168
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
As far as I remember the political declaration had a bunch of ceremonial faff May extracted from the EU in the hope of pushing the deal over the line, like a "commitment to make the backstop arrangement temporary" or whatever; and now it all just gets discarded by the wayside. While this may get around Bercow, it will probably lose with a similar margin to the 194 in MV2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:01
|
|
|
The political declaration is what lays out Mays plan for a free trade partnership with full regulatory autonomy - it's assurances where only designed to convince those wary of such a clean break with the EU but still laid out the groundwork for it
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:01
|
|
|
lol https://twitter.com/benton_dan/status/1014406620829442048
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:03
|
|
|
I like how the explainer for the Political Declaration is longer than the actual declaration document
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:03
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:I like how the explainer for the Political Declaration is longer than the actual declaration document It's because the EU continually said they ain't gonna get into the future relationship much until the WA is signed sealed and delivered - the political declaration was their give to May
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:05
|
|
|
Rustybear posted:I don't understand, does Scotland have the ability to swing national elections or not. I mean, clearly it does. It is doing so right now. Put 2015-election Scotland's electoral map together with 2017-election everywhere else and we have a Labour/SNP government right now. Unfortunately chunks of Scotland decided they like Tories now for some reason 
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:06
|
|
|
Anglos voting Tory then blaming literally everybody else would be funny if it didn't hurt us more than it hurt them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 17:34 |
|
|
what the gently caress https://twitter.com/carolinejmolloy/status/1111284506714083328
|
|
#
?
Mar 28, 2019 16:12
|
|