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Judakel posted:Literally using a contrast scale like you're calibrating your monitor at the start of a game. Doubling down on racism is indeed a bold tactic, friend.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:29
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thatfatkid posted:If maduro is currently pillaging Venezuela, what would you call guaidos plan to sell off publicly owned state assets and initiate austerity measures? But Maduro sells off state assets already, and has already caused massive austerity from collapsing the social welfare system of Venezuela for real?
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Apr 7, 2019 21:30
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thatfatkid posted:If maduro is currently pillaging Venezuela, what would you call guaidos plan to sell off publicly owned state assets and initiate austerity measures? Well the current coup regime has already sold off a lot of state assets to Rosneft and Sinopec, friend, so not quite seeing a difference to me that *particular* point? As to austerity, everyone knows of the ruinous hyperinflationary policies of the coup regime, and only an idiot (a title you clearly do *not* qualify for, friend!) would support continuing this ruinous practice. Obviously some reasonable policy is needed once the Maduro coup is tossed out of Miraflores that returns the Venezuelan economy to sanity.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:38
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Judakel posted:Literally using a contrast scale like you're calibrating your monitor at the start of a game. But seriously. Are you one of those absolutists that thinks if a person is even 1% white that makes them white? Is Obama white? Lisa Bonet? Jesse Williams? Drake? Guadio is obviously not born from caucasian parents white. Guadio is born from both Venezuelan parents. I'm not sure what your point about him being lighter skin even is. Maduro isn't exactly dark skin black.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:38
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Rust Martialis posted:Well the current coup regime has already sold off a lot of state assets to Rosneft and Sinopec, friend, so not quite seeing a difference to me that *particular* point? Well don't forget the current Venezuelan regime has also sold out oil properties to American companies. Particularly Chevron.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:47
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I was under the impression that the PSUV sold their state assests to Chinese, Vietnamese, and Russian operations rather than American ones. Nice to see the PSUV diversifying.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:58
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Rust Martialis posted:Doubling down on racism is indeed a bold tactic, friend. You can't be racist towards white people. Bold of you to make that claim.
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Apr 7, 2019 21:59
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Judakel posted:You can't be racist towards white people. Bold of you to make that claim. We agree on this too! Amazing! The point you skip over is that Guaidó is mestizo, though, and has been described as having "common mestizo features like most Venezuelans do", so your fixation on the concept of "whiteness" is a bit hard to understand for someone like me not into making race-based judgements about people's worth. You clearly have more experience than others here in judging people by the color of their skin, friend!
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Apr 7, 2019 22:14
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I think the thing that bugs me is the disingenuous citation and repetition of propaganda talking points.
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Apr 7, 2019 22:21
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Ok i think i get it now. Maduro sells state assets = bad Guaido sells state assets = good
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Apr 7, 2019 22:22
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thatfatkid posted:Ok i think i get it now. More like "attacking Guaidó for something Maduro already does = hypocrisy", friend.
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Apr 7, 2019 22:31
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Judakel posted:You're a bit behind, friend. He is white and race matters, friend. I really don't get this but maybe you could explain. I mean there could be some nuance I'm missing here but this statement so wildly contradicts common sense that I assume you just mean it as some kind of crude insult rather than being something that's supposed to actually be connected to the real world.
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Apr 7, 2019 22:47
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There's this constant assertion that Guaidó is going to immedietely cut off all social programs and sell every (remaining) state asset for pennies on the dollar and it'd be nice if people actually sourced these assertions, instead of merely assuming them to be true.
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Apr 7, 2019 23:07
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There's this constant assertion that Guaidó is going to immedietely cut off all social programs and sell every (remaining) state asset for pennies on the dollar and it'd be nice if people actually sourced these assertions, instead of merely assuming them to be true. The opposition has said several times they want to do away with the CLAP system, but I'm too lazy to look for sources now. That's one of the main things that people tend to latch on while criticizing opposition government plans because they see it as "These fuckers want to take food from poor people's mouths!", which is disingenuous. It's impossible to do away with massive food subsidies unless you want a good part of the country to starve. The problem is, CLAP itself is such a remarkably stupid system the only possible explanation for it is that it gives a lot of people a lot of opportunities to steal money and exert political control over communities (by importing grossly overpriced products, enabling local distributors to pick and choose who gets the boxes, etc.). There are a lot of better ways to give people access to food, but I'm not sure how the opposition plans to approach that. As for the other social programs, the other well-known ones are basically Barrio Adentro and Mision Vivienda. The former was about providing slums with accesssible medical centers at no cost using a lot of local doctors. Barrio Adentro is basically not working anymore because a lot of those cuban doctors left, the clinics are in disrepair like all other medical centers in Venezuela, and there's no access to supplies. Mision Vivienda is a more interesting concept. They promised to build millions of homes for people who needed them and a lot of those projects went up in Caracas. The buildings themselves had a lot of problems, plus the whole thing was rife with corruption as usual. It would be interesting to see what a new government can do in respect to housing, but just like Barrio Adentro, the Mision Vivienda constructions have pretty much ground to a halt during the last few years. It's also worth noting that public housing wasn't exactly a novel concept in Venezuela before the Chavez/Maduro governments, although they like to claim it is. My overall point is, a lot of the Chavez/Maduro government's flagship social programs have already been cut off in effect, by themselves, because of their mismanagement of the economy. They keep replacing them with other, new programs like the carnet de la patria and the CLAP, but these newer programs have taken politicization to a new level, and they're incredibly inefficient. Considering Venezuela's new government will be strapped for cash, it only makes sense they would look to develop more efficient social programs, but people act like they intend to let Venezuelan's die instead while conveniently ignoring that's exactly what the current government is doing.
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Apr 8, 2019 00:15
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Rust Martialis posted:We agree on this too! Amazing! He is very much a white man. Most white people in Venezuela look just like him.
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Apr 8, 2019 00:34
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Rust Martialis posted:More like "attacking Guaidó for something Maduro already does = hypocrisy", friend. And yet maduro is painted as pillaging the country while guaido would apparently be doing the same things but goodly. 
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Apr 8, 2019 00:41
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thatfatkid posted:And yet maduro is painted as pillaging the country while guaido would apparently be doing the same things but goodly. This response is confused. Maduro is pillaging the country, of course; but by corruption, stealing money meant to feed people, provide them housing and medical care. I note however your response is to us discussing your statement that the Opposition would sell off state assets, to which it was pointed out Maduro and Co. already have been doing just that. Could we stay on one topic at a time? Various people responded to your argument by pointing out the Maduro clique running the country already sells state assets because that's how the oil industry works. You then mixed up this point with Maduro's stealing - money from the sick and poor, given by Chavez, stolen by Maduro. Your make it look like you're approving of PSUV corruption, friend. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 05:15
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Thanks for the tips friend, i look forward to using them in my future posting endeavours friend. I sure am glad that i have such a good and friendly friend to provide such friendly advice to me, your friend.
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Apr 8, 2019 05:29
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as dumb and/or disingenuous as some of our visitors are, Rust, you're being p condescending in a way that probably doesn't help make the thread more readable
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 05:31
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GreyjoyBastard posted:as dumb and/or disingenuous as some of our visitors are, Rust, you're being p condescending in a way that probably doesn't help make the thread more readable I would claim in my defense I'm pretty far down that particular list of crimes, but point taken. I shall do better! (friend)
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Apr 8, 2019 06:03
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thatfatkid posted:Thanks for the tips friend, i look forward to using them in my future posting endeavours friend. I sure am glad that i have such a good and friendly friend to provide such friendly advice to me, your friend. Well, someone defending Maduro by attacking the opposition for discussing plans to do something the current regime does already is either uninformed or hypocritical. It's not a honest approach but some people clearly aren't interested in being honest. Rap sheets are usually good indications on that score.
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Apr 8, 2019 06:43
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Being critical of Guaido does not equate to defending Maduro. One can be critical of something without necessarily supporting the alternative.
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Apr 8, 2019 07:01
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thatfatkid posted:Being critical of Guaido does not equate to defending Maduro. One can be critical of something without necessarily supporting the alternative. In this case, you criticised selling state assets. Are you only against it when the opposition does it? It's *rather* inconsistent to approve Maduro selling state assets to (say) Chevron, but disapprove anyone else doing it. So maybe you could clarify your position: are you against Maduro selling off state assets too?
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Apr 8, 2019 07:40
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Squalid posted:I really don't get this but maybe you could explain. I mean there could be some nuance I'm missing here but this statement so wildly contradicts common sense that I assume you just mean it as some kind of crude insult rather than being something that's supposed to actually be connected to the real world. I don't understand the confusion. Do you believe venezuela doesn't have a racial hierarchy, or do you believe that venezuelans aren't at the top of it...? White people in latin america, shockingly, tend to have a latin american background. There is a real racial disparity between white people like guaido and people who visibly have a more indigenous background. There is racism. The people at the top of that racial hierarchy are referred to as white. The fact that they would not be white in a completely different country, america, is not super relevant there.
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Apr 8, 2019 08:01
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Rust Martialis posted:In this case, you criticised selling state assets. Are you only against it when the opposition does it? It's *rather* inconsistent to approve Maduro selling state assets to (say) Chevron, but disapprove anyone else doing it. So maybe you could clarify your position: are you against Maduro selling off state assets too? Where has anyone approved of Maduro selling state assets anywhere though? You're just putting words in people's mouths at every turn, the guy you're talking to just said "Being critical of Guaidó does not equate to defending Maduro." and your response is to say that he's defending Maduro because he criticizes Guaidó. This isn't good debating, friend.
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Apr 8, 2019 08:04
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Mischievous Mink posted:Where has anyone approved of Maduro selling state assets anywhere though? You're just putting words in people's mouths at every turn, the guy you're talking to just said "Being critical of Guaidó does not equate to defending Maduro." and your response is to say that he's defending Maduro because he criticizes Guaidó. This isn't good debating, friend. Just read the context of the post: thatfatkid posted:If maduro is currently pillaging Venezuela, what would you call guaidos plan to sell off publicly owned state assets and initiate austerity measures? He words it as if Guaido plan to sell state assets isn't something Maduro is already doing, or at least not to as extreme of a degree. Rusty was correcting him that Maduro is currently selling state assets at least at the levels that Guaido is suspected and the poster responded by trying to ninja his way out of his own argument. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 09:02
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punk rebel ecks posted:Just read the context of the post: I feel like it could equally be interpreted as just saying Guaidó is not offering any real solutions to problems under Maduro, instead continuing down paths that have already been detrimental to the Venezuelan people. Maybe that's not what thatfatkid meant, but it was how I read the tone of his post.
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Apr 8, 2019 09:15
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Mischievous Mink posted:Where has anyone approved of Maduro selling state assets anywhere though? You're just putting words in people's mouths at every turn, the guy you're talking to just said "Being critical of Guaidó does not equate to defending Maduro." and your response is to say that he's defending Maduro because he criticizes Guaidó. This isn't good debating, friend. Uh, sorry, the poster I was talking to said: thefatkid posted:If maduro is currently pillaging Venezuela, what would you call guaidos plan to sell off publicly owned state assets and initiate austerity measures? So a simple reading of his comment says he is equating selling state assets with pillaging Venezuela. I don't think that's controversial? So now I am curious if he is against Maduro doing what he criticizes Guaido for. Either in reality or hypothetically. To answer the original question, comparing "selling state assets" is not the same thing as "pillaging Venezuela" (as Maduro and the PSUV have been) in any event, so the comparison is risible. Maduro not only sold assets, he then stole the money ('pillaging Venezuela'). Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 09:31
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punk rebel ecks posted:Just read the context of the post: Lol nice of you to explain what i meant and ignore my follow up post that clarifies my point, but for whatever reason is classed as "ninjaing" away from my own argument.
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Apr 8, 2019 13:22
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It is unclear what Iran will be getting in return, but it looks like another global autocracy may be about to lend military support to Maduro: https://www.reuters.com/article/iran-venezuela-airlines/irans-mahan-air-launches-direct-flights-to-venezuela-idUSL8N21Q11T
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Apr 8, 2019 14:41
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thatfatkid posted:Lol nice of you to explain what i meant and ignore my follow up post that clarifies my point, but for whatever reason is classed as "ninjaing" away from my own argument. Sorry, could you point at the post you believe 'clarifies' your stance? Apparently your definition of "clarify" differs from mine. Thanks!
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Apr 8, 2019 14:59
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Private Witt posted:It is unclear what Iran will be getting in return, but it looks like another global autocracy may be about to lend military support to Maduro: Sure are all the good guys lining up to support Maduro. China,Russia,North Korea and now Iran.
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Apr 8, 2019 15:06
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Sanctions are certainly a good way to push countries into the arms of your enemies.
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Apr 8, 2019 15:09
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30.5 Days posted:I don't understand the confusion. Do you believe venezuela doesn't have a racial hierarchy, or do you believe that venezuelans aren't at the top of it...? White people in latin america, shockingly, tend to have a latin american background. There is a real racial disparity between white people like guaido and people who visibly have a more indigenous background. There is racism. The people at the top of that racial hierarchy are referred to as white. The fact that they would not be white in a completely different country, america, is not super relevant there. Look all I'm asking is that you support this assertion with evidence. You seem quite confident in calling Guaido white, and I want you to show me how you came to this conclusion. Did you read it in an article? Is it based on a statement he made, or statements by other Venezuelans? Where is it coming from? You make a good point when you say that racial hierarchies are different in different countries. You can't just use your intuitions to support this claim, you need intimate knowledge of the local social context. I don't have that for Venezuela, but Labradoodle does. as a Venezuelan, he clearly thinks the assertion that Guaido is white is absurd. What basis do you have to contradict him?
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Apr 8, 2019 15:25
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Pro-Guaido folks have been saying stuff like "We don't have racism here in Venezuela" since this whole thing started, including in response to the lynching by burning alive of a black man assumed to be a chavista. This should tell you a lot you need to know about the politics of the opposition. vvvvv Edit: Private Witt posted:Could also just be symbolic support based on their shared love of the "death to america" meme. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 15:36
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sanctions are certainly a good way to push countries into the arms of your enemies. Iran and Venezuela have had close relations since Chavez stepped into office, which pre-dates the first US sanctions by over a decade. But one should be very skeptical of new agreements at this point considering Venezuela is crippled. It would likely be some sort of Faustian bargain. Could also just be symbolic support based on their shared love of the "death to america" meme.
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Apr 8, 2019 15:36
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Bob le Moche posted:Pro-Guaido folks have been saying stuff like "We don't have racism here in Venezuela" since this whole thing started, including in response to the lynching by burning alive of a black man assumed to be a chavista. Can you quote them? If you can't I will assume you are just making this up. Saying there's no racism in Venezuela is such a ridiculous and absurd statement I can't imagine anyone actually saying it.
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Apr 8, 2019 15:55
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From what I remember, people (and I myself) were saying things like "you can't assume that racism in Venuzula follows the same pattern as in the US," and "just because 'lynching' has a specific cultural context in the US does not mean that mob violence in Venuzula is equally racially motivated."
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Apr 8, 2019 16:01
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Squalid posted:Can you quote them? If you can't I will assume you are just making this up. Saying there's no racism in Venezuela is such a ridiculous and absurd statement I can't imagine anyone actually saying it. Did a quick search for "venezuela racism" on twitter here are some immediate results from just the last few weeks: https://twitter.com/Adriansiorio/status/1095673686298898434 https://twitter.com/elnelsongerardo/status/1094706079374737409 https://twitter.com/Mich_712/status/1113877966197600257 https://twitter.com/RobertoBaanN/status/1113421075889709056 https://twitter.com/JrightN/status/1113943010927099904 https://twitter.com/SylvosW/status/1098357165482479616 https://twitter.com/talesofjesus/status/1094398204102262785 https://twitter.com/jerichoFS941/status/1094357466966564866 https://twitter.com/Fbsulbaran/status/1113587226066030597 https://twitter.com/aleja_soff/status/1112808506023919617 I could keep posting those forever... If you mean in this thread, here's what folks were saying about the burning alive incident last time it was brought up (didn't go back to when it first happened): Keeshhound posted:It's almost impressive that you can wallow so deeply in ethnocentrism that you not only try to accuse other people of racism, but racism within the specific cultural frame that you were raised in while discussing the prospect of racially motivated violence in a completely different country and culture. Rust Martialis posted:This guy? Rust Martialis posted:Sorry, this is the Venezuela thread, not USPOL. You and other thread tourists keep seeming to forget this. Keeshhound posted:Oh, eat a dick. Pretending that because lynching in the US has a strong racial undercurrent then all mob executions in countries without that history must also be equally racially motivated is not only insultingly obtuse, it detracts from any discussion about the actual racial problems that the nation does have, and detracts from conversations about the actual causes of that violence (people are starving, impoverished and feel like they lack control over their own lives, and lash out to try to regain that control). Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 16:31
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I never said anything about racial politics in Venezuela. What I addressed is the reports the man chased down being attacked for being accused of a thief, as opposed to claims he was attacked for being a Chavista. Also it's rather interesting that the pro-coup posters like my dear friend Bob here keep pointing to this *one* man who died allegedly at the hands of a opposition protest (as opposed to general vigilantism) as somehow proof the opposition are violent, and totally ignore dozens of killings by the coup forces including police, army, and colectivos, including quite a few non-whites. Edit: I mean I called out one poster for racist remarks and he got probated, so maybe Bob here got confused? The pro-coup posters have a real hard-on about race, I agree. Maybe they're Americans; the USA is obsessed with race in a very strange way. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 16:44
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