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Ironslave posted:The Eye's the most fun because they're simultaneously the most-pervasive, the least-direct, and exert influence simply by watching. Their cult was around for god-knows-how-long before the Seers even formed because the nature of their patron and her powers made keeping in contact easy, and I'm left wondering what they got up to for all that time before they joined with the other tyrants. The General and the Unity are runner-ups due to how frustratingly hard it is to not invoke their own symbols to try and oppose them. Geryon are mentioned in Signs along with a whole pile of extra Ministries, but their proper writeup is in Dark Eras 2. They were the Ministry of “you are being oppressed by a group you know who have secret membership, and you know it’s members are among you”; everything from suspecting but not knowing who was under the hoods of the local Klan, to protesters thinking they were infiltrated by undercover cops, to people not knowing which of their neighbours were informing on them. When they fell, Panopticon ate up most of their real estate.
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Apr 7, 2019 08:41
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Geryon are mentioned in Signs along with a whole pile of extra Ministries, but their proper writeup is in Dark Eras 2. Glad to know where we'll see the most of them, then. Dark Eras 2 just shot up on my list of luxury purchases.
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Apr 7, 2019 08:55
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Gerund posted:The thing that is true in both Changeling and Mage is that the structure of their character social groupings as a player-facing dynamic- creating the Wizard-class order/court and Fighter-class order/court- creates this wild discordance between what the social structure actually has as its guiding philosophy versus what character benefits and alibis to "do Thief/Cleric stuff" says about the group structurally. Well gently caress me, I guess there is something interesting to say about the courts. Like you I think the 2E court mechanics that restrict True Fae fuckery is both a really good idea and not fully/perfectly implemented. I think this is even more apparent in the various minor courts, of which CtL2E seems to have a TON of. How is the court of favors from the New Orleans freehold supposed to defend from the Fae? What's the proper political balance between the tidal courts that keep their protection up and running? How the gently caress is one supposed to harvest glamour from the emotion of fatalism? (Even the dusk court write up gets into this and basically just says "eh, they don't, they mostly use goblin fruit and pledges.") Joe Slowboat posted:Mage, by tracking more closely with the actual operation of politics in the world we live in, produces a lot more lacunae and hard feelings when it's discussed. Yeah, this is a little closer to what I was getting at, and is I think why Magechat is both so frequent and so heated
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Apr 7, 2019 17:16
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Digital Osmosis posted:Yeah, this is a little closer to what I was getting at, and is I think why Magechat is both so frequent and so heated You get something of the opposite when discussing Beast anywhere else but here, because, surprisingly, some people do enjoy playing it and like having a ChroD game that--by intention or by incident--is basically free of a lot of the mechanisms and presumptions inherent to the design of other lines (that is, games like Mage and Vampire ultimately driving you towards certain styles via their mechanics). Many of them will start getting angry when it's mentioned that its themes are a hot horrible mess due to being written by people with two very different assumptions on what they were writing. Pointing out the divide between "horrible monsters" and "LGBTQ heroes" and the resultant dissonance this causes can get you labeled as being "political." Which, uh... that sure is a ways to go to bury your head in the sand.
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Apr 7, 2019 18:39
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Digital Osmosis posted:Well gently caress me, I guess there is something interesting to say about the courts. Like you I think the 2E court mechanics that restrict True Fae fuckery is both a really good idea and not fully/perfectly implemented. I think this is even more apparent in the various minor courts, of which CtL2E seems to have a TON of. How is the court of favors from the New Orleans freehold supposed to defend from the Fae? What's the proper political balance between the tidal courts that keep their protection up and running? How the gently caress is one supposed to harvest glamour from the emotion of fatalism? (Even the dusk court write up gets into this and basically just says "eh, they don't, they mostly use goblin fruit and pledges.") Despite the Dusk Courts being half-mentioned in 1E core, I swapped out the emotion of Dusk court to be something more game-able; in fact, I was so inspired by the old Grogs.txt talk about Fighters are Hope, Wizards are Spite discussion that I actually made that dichotomy the Dawn-Dusk dynamic to be Hope v. Spite. This had a run-on effect of making the motivations of Dusk more clean as well, in that they were motivated not by an acceptance of death but rather of trying to frustrate those that will destroy them. Lots of fun was had with that, especially among the Wizened. In the case of the new 2E CtL courts, I honestly don't know if they had the time and care put into their design that they needed. There was a time that I was convinced that Onyx Path was going to take the 'bold' option of not even including the seasonal courts in the 2E core, and any development time spent fitting the Seasonal court rules into the 2E condition/beat dynamic would have been spent making the Courts of Commerce make a single drip of sense. In fact, there is a lot I could say about how the individual failures of Courts create the fencing around what an acceptable court should be.
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Apr 7, 2019 19:14
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do not go gentle eh
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Apr 7, 2019 21:34
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Where did the name Geryon for that Ministry come from, anyway? I know it's a Greek monster, slain by Hercules, but I don't get how it relates to the Ministry. Geryon was just doing his own thing, herding cattle, when this rear end in a top hat sailed across the ocean and murdered him for no reason.Gerund posted:In 2E CtL, the courts are better tied using mechanics that actually state that the written Courts creates a restriction on the True Fae and their minions as to how they interact- and that the court's restriction is tied into what the court is supposed to be 'good' at. But even there, some of the restrictions are better suited to the 'class' element (Summer means they can't run away) and some are better suited to the 'emotion' element (Winter means they have to 'mourn' after their successes). You can both acknowledge that its really tough to thread the needle to please every aspect of a gameline AND accept that, perhaps just maybe, the courts aren't perfect and your players might have a better idea on how to run things. Changeling 2e is, mechanically, a very big step-up from 1e. Sadly, it's thematically a bit messy, but I'm weirdly okay with that? When things are just a little out of alignment, it forces me to put thought into why things don't feel right to me and that makes me dig real hard into the game's meat. Thus far, that sort of thinking has led to me considering fae magic's thematic role being that of agency in the specific form of satisfying your own desires, and to realize that Kiths play a very curious role in Hedge shaping.
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Apr 8, 2019 20:30
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Please go on. Changeling is wonderful.
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Apr 8, 2019 20:52
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Axelgear posted:Where did the name Geryon for that Ministry come from, anyway? I know it's a Greek monster, slain by Hercules, but I don't get how it relates to the Ministry. Geryon was just doing his own thing, herding cattle, when this rear end in a top hat sailed across the ocean and murdered him for no reason. I think it might be due to the idea of Geryon being a monster with human faces.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:03
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I believe so, yes. They were named way before my time - the 1e signature Scelestus, Angrboda, fell to the Abyss in order to murder the last Geryon Pylon. No one can be expected to have remembered this.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:09
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whats the story w the tremere anyway? the vampire wizards, not the wizard vampires
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Apr 8, 2019 22:11
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Soonmot posted:Please go on. Changeling is wonderful. I don't know if that's directed at me but... Alright! A friend and I sat down some weeks back and just kinda... Had a mull on it. We covered a lot of topics - the whole thing sprang out of talking about gameplay loops, and how I wasn't sure what Changeling's was, if it even had one at all - but he asked me some really good and insightful questions, two of which led me to re-evaluate my thinking on the game a good bit. The first was "What is the 'Platonic arc' for a Changeling game?" and the second, "If the Huntsmen and True Fae and all other sticks were gone from a Changeling's life, what would they do?". This led me to consider what I felt was Changeling's core essence as a game: The contrast of wonder and terror, and their indissoluble merging in the form of Faerie. The "Platonic arc" of a Changeling game (a general path they can roughly be expected to follow given the themes and mechanics, though not the only way it can be done) to my mind was one where the Lost - trapped in a solipsistic daydream - remembers their mortal life and connection to others, returns to the mortal world, and then gradually becomes unmoored from it as harsh realities drive them back again and again into the world of the fae to both find solutions and repose. My vision of a Changeling is someone who is fundamentally warped by their experiences in Arcadia; never wanting to return to that hellish place, but also utterly incapable of forgetting it. A fire elemental never wants to be trapped in a forge, but they still feel a special kinship to the flame. It's a part of them now, and they can never let it go. Likewise, my vision of fae magic is that it's addictive. Not in the sense of any way that requires mechanics, but simply the natures of the players themselves. Changelings return to the Ironsides scared, confused, and adrift; often incapable of simply sliding back into their mortal lives. Even if they can, for some reason, they are changed in ways that make sitting easily difficult, and they will always know that, whenever they face a new problem, they can use fae magic to fix it. This all combines to make fae magic a big metaphor for the idea of manifesting agency for one's personal desires without consideration of others. A Changeling faced with a problem can take the mundane route, but the fae magic method is far easier, far more certain, and doesn't really rely on others. Why rely on the doctor to heal your spouse when you can dart into the Hedge to find that special goblin fruit? Why work a 9-to-5 when you can trade the sadness of drunks to a goblin weaver for faerie gold? The more power a Changeling gets, though, the less connected they are to the mundane world; the less they are joined with humanity. They might want to resettle back into their mundane life, but the magic is always calling them to wonder. Eventually, they can settle into the same horrid solipsism which defines the True Fae.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:19
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Tollymain posted:whats the story w the tremere anyway? the vampire wizards, not the wizard vampires Something something this one guy part of the Hermetic house "Tremere" saw that magic was losing its power, and decided he needed to find some way to revitalize his power and become immortal. He and his followers gathered a bunch of vampire-blood, made an alchemical concoction that would turn them into vampires, and turned themselves into vampires, which the other Hermetic houses saw as kind of taking the whole matter too far. Then Tremere and his followers turn up at the Camarilla's doorstep and go "so hey we're vampire-wizards and we want to join and also we're better than all of you" and spent the next 900 years being assholes to everyone but also being one of the bigger Camarilla clans and therefore instrumental in the fight against the Sabbat. At one point Tremere Senior decides that he wants to be as powerful as the most powerful vampire and eats Salubri (who is basically Vampire-Jesus or possibly the most evil vampire ever)'s soul, then has his followers slaughter every member of the Salubri clan after branding them as demon-worshippers.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:25
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LatwPIAT posted:Something something this one guy part of the Hermetic house "Tremere" saw that magic was losing its power, and decided he needed to find some way to revitalize his power and become immortal. He and his followers gathered a bunch of vampire-blood, made an alchemical concoction that would turn them into vampires, and turned themselves into vampires, which the other Hermetic houses saw as kind of taking the whole matter too far. Additionally, the concoction the Tremere used to become vampires was made through the use of Tzimisce blood. This comes back to bite them in at least one Time of Judgment scenario.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:43
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Ironslave posted:Additionally, the concoction the Tremere used to become vampires was made through the use of Tzimisce blood. This comes back to bite them in at least one Time of Judgment scenario.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:46
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Nessus posted:I forget where I read it, but weren't they at first basically just "immortal guys who eat blood and who still have some wizard magic," until Tremere put the bite on Saulot, at which point they became Cainites properly. I honestly don't know. The Tzimisce were how they made the leap either way, and putting the bite on Saulot was how they claimed the jump to Clan proper. Assuming my memory holds, they were around before the Camarilla properly existed, and were not on anyone's good lists because of what they did.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:54
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I think it was less that they weren't actually Cainites, and more that other vampires didn't accept them as Cainites because they didn't have a fancy Antediluvian progenitor. So they ate one. I'm sure there's at least one book that says the opposite, though.
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Apr 8, 2019 22:58
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Nessus posted:I forget where I read it, but weren't they at first basically just "immortal guys who eat blood and who still have some wizard magic," until Tremere put the bite on Saulot, at which point they became Cainites properly. They were definitely Cainites from the beginning, though they didn't really know what that actually entailed when their leadership first turned themselves undead. The ritual that turned them into vampires was supposed to give them true immortality rather than an artificially-induced Embrace, although some sources imply that Tremere himself, and maybe his lackey Etrius, knew or at least suspected that the ritual would in fact turn them into vampires and quietly chose to keep that fact from the rest. They just weren't an actual clan until they usurped the Salubri. Prior to that, they were still technically a Tzimisce bloodline, although their relationship with the Tzimisce in particular and other Cainites in general was mostly characterized by the other clans (mostly Tzimisce) attacking the Tremere in retaliation for abducting and experimenting on other vampires.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:31
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Ironslave posted:You get something of the opposite when discussing Beast anywhere else but here, because, surprisingly, some people do enjoy playing it and like having a ChroD game that--by intention or by incident--is basically free of a lot of the mechanisms and presumptions inherent to the design of other lines (that is, games like Mage and Vampire ultimately driving you towards certain styles via their mechanics). Many of them will start getting angry when it's mentioned that its themes are a hot horrible mess due to being written by people with two very different assumptions on what they were writing. Pointing out the divide between "horrible monsters" and "LGBTQ heroes" and the resultant dissonance this causes can get you labeled as being "political." My old GM loved Beast because it was a toolbox to make neat things and overpowered enemies. No big surprise that the game (which started as Hunter and then kind of shifted to mostly-Werewolf clumsily) was a theme-less, overcrowded mess.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:45
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no i mean the vampire wizards
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Apr 9, 2019 04:08
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Tollymain posted:no i mean the vampire wizards So the Tremere were originally a Diamond Order, aligned with the Silver Ladder, the Adamantine Arrow, and so on. Their interest, as an order, was in the secret nature of the soul and of the secret histories of the Awakened themselves. If you needed to know something about the soul, you went to the Tremere. At some point in their journey of discovery, however, they became convinced of a secret history the nature of which is a bit fuzzy since what we've got is pieced together from things Dave Brookshaw has mentioned and their original 1E write-ups, which themselves changed over the course of the line. Eventually, something happened, and the Tremere became ensconced in the myth of the Atlantean Dragons, and following that whole line led them to believe in a sixth watchtower, the tower of Blood. Following where that line of inquiry led them down the ways to believing in and finding the seventh Watchtower, the final Watchtower, the Tower of Soul. It arose from the Ocean Ouroborous, and it's where Tremere officially initiate, assuming they survive. Doing this replaces their Gnosis with Hollow, and makes them hungry for souls. By eating souls--often slowly--the Tremere can prolong their lives and gain greater power. We're not given a precise time when this occurred, but it was a long time ago. We're also not given how long it eventually took the rest of the Diamond to boot them out of their group, but eventually their activities as reapers--soul-stealers--became too much to ignore and they were ousted. To this day they maintain their secret Houses and conduct their experiments. They're clearly off their rockers, but the unfortunate thing is that, due to the nature of their research, they do in fact know esoteric secrets about the histories of the universe and the nature of the soul. It's just that separating those from their dogma and other beliefs is hard. Their legacy lives on in certain naming conventions with the Diamond. All the draconic names the Orders give themselves--the voice of the dragon, the dragon's talons--are symbols provided to them by the Tremere. More info on them is going to be in the upcoming Night Horrors book, Nameless and Accursed, so hopefully that provide a further-updated glimpse on their nature is in 2E.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:30
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I was not aware 2e is moving the Tremere into 'former Diamond Order' territory. That's... interesting. Also will be completely ignored at my table since, well, I've already been running a Tremere-centric game where their 'Theban captivity' was real.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:40
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Joe Slowboat posted:I was not aware 2e is moving the Tremere into 'former Diamond Order' territory. That's... interesting. Also will be completely ignored at my table since, well, I've already been running a Tremere-centric game where their 'Theban captivity' was real. I don't think the Theban Captivity isn't real or was removed. Left-Hand Path describes the Tremere Cult as having lasted for "77 generations" before the events that led to them becoming what they are now. But even before that they were already trying to have Mages be embraced to see what happens and were planning to seek out the Theban for its knowledge. Having them also be a Diamond Order doesn't change much and slots into those time frames. The real big difference is that the Tremere are no longer a Legacy. They're an altered template that can initiate into one of several Houses, which are reaper Legacies that the Tremere have fully consumed. They've been mentioned as actually viewing other reapers unfavorably; souls are solely for them to prey on and work with, probably through some warped lens of "refining" them through consumption.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:58
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Rewatching John Wick 2, I'm struck by how the titular character, who's literally known as 'Baba Yaga' in the film's underworld, represents pretty much every seasonal court simultaneously to varying degrees. I mean, Autumn seems like a shoe-in for his mantle, but Summer might fit just as well. On the other hand, the entire undercurrent of the two films is the clash between his working life as an assassin and his attempt at retirement and a new peaceful life with his wife, who has passed away due to illness and left him in the depths of crushing depression and sorrow. He could easily have a nearly maxed out Winter mantle, too, and probably 2-3 dots in Spring, as he gave up everything to try and make a new life based on love and caring for another person (and then a dog, when that person was gone). It seems contradictory, but it all works surprisingly well together, and The Continental and its society of assassins hiding just out of sight of reality as normal people know it, all of them bound by very strict rules, oaths, and pledges, gold coins that represent said promises and debts, beyond their simple metallic value, a world made up of people with one foot in the normal world, masquerading (or genuinely doing a real job) as normal people when they aren't "working" on Continental (Court/Freehold) business, and one in another that no ordinary person (aside from some stuck on the periphery, like the local cop who's way too respectful with Wick whenever there's way too many gunshots or explosions at his house) is even aware exists, with smaller individual societies for any given city linked together by common cause and allegiance internationally? Always struck me as really Lost, moreso than any of the other CoD games.
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Apr 9, 2019 05:15
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The captivity still happened - the Tremere captured and experimented on several soul-damaging monsters, which gradually ended up corrupting them until the roles were reversed, until they broke free again in their modern-day not-quite-the-same-Mage-Template state, replacing Gnosis with Hollow. One of the things Tremere believe is that the Paths are artificial limitations imposed by the Watchtowers, which they don’t see as benevolent. The thing about other Reapers is that the Tremere both dislike threats to their food supply, want to absorb the knowledge of mages who deal with souls, and truly despise non-Mage monsters that injure them. Reaper Legacies that they target end up as Houses (the Tremere equivalent of Legacies). They’ve come a long way from when the big three were originally designed to literally be post-Judgement sequel games to the oWoD. When Awakening was “Ascension 2” they would have been the oTremere, the vampire clan, having turned themselves back into mages in the crossover. NTremere have been given a lot of development in their backstory and beliefs, but that “mages who used to be vampires” thing - the Captivity - remains.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:05
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01011001 posted:My old GM loved Beast because it was a toolbox to make neat things and overpowered enemies. No big surprise that the game (which started as Hunter and then kind of shifted to mostly-Werewolf clumsily) was a theme-less, overcrowded mess. I think that Beast is... playable. I think its mechanics work, and nothing breaks it (at least, any more than any other current ChroD line). The powers are neat and can be used to make some fun monsters for other games and fun characters in its own. Lair is cool. I think people can enjoy playing it on their own terms--either by removing the clumsy abuse framework or by being Batmen--or on the game's terms--by leaning into being a monster with the mentality of an oWoD Sabbat member. I think there is something to be said (though I don't know if I'd say it) for having a game within the ChroD that is free of the sort of Integrity Meter, mechanical-reinforcement-of-themes like Vampires have with Humanity and Touchstones or Mages have with Wisdom and how working on building it is detrimental to growing their power. But that doesn't make the text and its supposed themes not dissonant with itself, and not pointlessly disgusting when viewed as a complete whole. Or that a mark wasn't missed in trying to make an example of both the cycles of abuse and persecution that ultimately ends up validating abusers and persecutors. It very much failed at what it was trying to be.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:06
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Dave Brookshaw posted:They’ve come a long way from when the big three were originally designed to literally be post-Judgement sequel games to the oWoD. When Awakening was “Ascension 2” they would have been the oTremere, the vampire clan, having turned themselves back into mages in the crossover. Wait what? The nWoD lines were going to have been direct continuations? Glad that didn't stick.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:09
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Ironslave posted:Wait what? The nWoD lines were going to have been direct continuations? Glad that didn't stick. For a brief period before the opportunities of a clean slate sunk in, yeah.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:12
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Dave Brookshaw posted:For a brief period before the opportunities of a clean slate sunk in, yeah. Huh. Is the Old Man of the Abyss in Imperial Mysteries looking a lot like that one Nephandus from Ascension a deliberate callback to that?
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Apr 9, 2019 07:13
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Ironslave posted:Huh. Is the Old Man of the Abyss in Imperial Mysteries looking a lot like that one Nephandus from Ascension a deliberate callback to that? He actually showed up first in Astral Realms, or at least, he showed up in Astral Realms before Imperial Mysteries.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:38
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Joe Slowboat posted:He actually showed up first in Astral Realms, or at least, he showed up in Astral Realms before Imperial Mysteries. Right. I don't think he even gets much of a mention in Imperial Mysteries, now that I think about it. Not sure why that was the book I jumped to.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:50
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Ironslave posted:Huh. Is the Old Man of the Abyss in Imperial Mysteries looking a lot like that one Nephandus from Ascension a deliberate callback to that? I always interpreted that more as "of course the uncounted Aeon of the Abyss, who rules the eleventh mark of a set of ten, takes the form of a guy from the Mage game you're not playing." He gets mentioned in Imperial Mysteries mostly in a rumor about coordinating negotiations with the Aswadim, who are like Scelesti, but more interesting. Or who are like Scelesti when the Scelesti are being written well.
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Apr 9, 2019 08:23
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I Am Just a Box posted:I always interpreted that more as "of course the uncounted Aeon of the Abyss, who rules the eleventh mark of a set of ten, takes the form of a guy from the Mage game you're not playing." If Mage is academia, Archmastery is tenure. Aswadim are the tenured academics on the same Universe Faculty as you, who are basically advocating various forms of abstruse genocide, but the rest of the tenured Archmasters end up caring more about their cordial relations with their peers than about the moral stance of 'I'm not going to make friends with the actual eleventh-dimensional hell advocate.' Aswadim are exhausting.
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Apr 9, 2019 08:29
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Joe Slowboat posted:If Mage is academia, Archmastery is tenure. "Just- just ignore him and hope one day he says an unacceptable slur and gets expelled from all of reality proper."
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Apr 9, 2019 08:41
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Ironslave posted:"Just- just ignore him and hope one day he says an unacceptable slur and gets expelled from all of reality proper." "Did he just call me a dragon of chaos?"
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Apr 9, 2019 10:34
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Dave Brookshaw posted:For a brief period before the opportunities of a clean slate sunk in, yeah. That’s wild. Can you provide any other examples of stuff that was supposed to carry over from oWoD?
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Apr 9, 2019 14:08
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LatwPIAT posted:M20 is somewhat astonishing of just how bad a job OPP did on it. For reasons that escape me, they decided to give the job of writing an updated version of Ascension to known madman and then publishing what he wrote unedited. This probably sets my tastes very much at odds with anyone who wants Ascension to be an actually good game which tells high-quality stories, rather than a psychedelic action movie nightmare, mind.
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Apr 9, 2019 14:25
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One more book and the final pass on Kindred of the East is done, which means all the available demographic information for non-spiritual entities (other than a few novels) has been finalized. Finally, it draws to the close.
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Apr 9, 2019 14:59
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PantsOptional posted:That’s wild. Can you provide any other examples of stuff that was supposed to carry over from oWoD? So, the big one in proto-Awakening is that it had the Traditions, the Technocracy, and a group consisting of the Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether, and that when members shed their paradigms by raising the power stat they were inducted into the next level of the Diamond, Seers, and Free Council, with the Oracles and Exarchs as the rumored next level above *that*. So where Ascension vaccilates about the line where the Technocracy stop believing their schtick and admit thay they're mages, proto-Awakening had the Seers as the conspiracy of high-Arete mages inside the Technocracy. And the same with the Traditions and Orders. This was considered wildly overcomplicated, gutted from the game, and replaced by Atlantis. But echoes of it remain, as despite the VAs and SOEs being culled their order remained kinda seperate. And the Seers still have that air of Technocrats without the self-delusion.
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Apr 9, 2019 15:08
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Warthur posted:a psychedelic action movie nightmare, mind. This would be the way I'd want to play Ascension too. I could just never really get excited about it, and I tried because magic is fun. Except somehow they made it a whole lot less than fun.
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Apr 9, 2019 15:44
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