|
Plom Bar posted:Let us all agree that the only revelation about Jade's physiology that matters is that she definitely, canonically, has a tail. I was trying to remember if that was already canon in Act 7/the credits.
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 05:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:20 |
|
|
Yes but the original vriska/meenah stuff.... Also the hurried twitter clarification that Calliope is the same age as Roxy It's more that they'd accidentally bumble into it
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 05:32
|
|
|
The writers confirmed that John and Terezi are both adults when they gently caress in the car. Terezi did not take off the instant they set foot on Earth C and was there for a couple of years. Even accounting for the time differential she'd have been over 18 while John was 23 and that's within the half-your-age-plus-seven rule. Y'all nasty. Plom Bar fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 06:13
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:I was trying to remember if that was already canon in Act 7/the credits. It was not. The first quasi-canon depiction of Jade's tail was in a calendar illustration. This thread argued about that for a bit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 06:18
|
|
|
I've read a lot and have had a lot of opinions on things so far, but Dirk dunking on John specifically for being an unremarkable everyman without specific motivation who only feels purpose when being told what to do with his friends is oddly satisfying to see turned into an explicit narrative element, even if it's been a heavy theme of the epilogue. Considering how long it rattled around Homestuck proper.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 06:52
|
|
|
Also at some point I stopped reading any block of dialogue from Gamzee and am happier for it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 07:01
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Also at some point I stopped reading any block of dialogue from Gamzee and am happier for it. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 07:10
|
|
|
Then he died. And I am happier for it. (seriously when I'm done catching up I'm gonna have to figure out what the gently caress the deal is with gamzee because jesus what the gently caress) Also Dirk misgendering Roxy and Calliope all the time is awful of him, though effective characterization - and I sort of wonder if maybe it was a deliberate provocation? Because it seems to have caused Terezi to tip her hand that she's more aware of Dirk's influence than she can let on. Or both, because he's lovely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 07:15
|
|
|
Dolash posted:
its pretty much just Dirk being lovely. he even goes off on one of those weird "i love how this person is presenting as however they want to present! you go, you! what a powerful and brave and strong and brave and powerful and strong and brave thing to do!" that cis people fuckin love to do when they dont really give a poo poo about respecting someone's pronouns but want to act like they care
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 08:07
|
|
|
Scrree posted:the bottom of this page is where Jade and Jake talk about having kids. at one point in this conversation Terezi mentions that when Jade says 'tie the knot' it's a double entendre, although she changes the subject when John asks what exactly she means. Yeah. "I can't get pregnant because of things that happened to my anatomy when I merged with Bec," then Jake asks, "well, have you been trying," and Jade is like, "ah, we can't really try per se..." is pretty much confirmation. In combination with that, "we might ask Rose to be our surrogate but Dave and/or Karkat wouldn't be the father, someone else would be wink wink" is pretty clear. On the bright side, the stuff that happens in Candy is not necessarily true and explicitly isn't "canon" in the sense delineated by Rose in the prologue, so I guess you can take this strange little insertion or leave it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 08:28
|
|
|
Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 09:54
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? It's still pretty funny though
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 09:55
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? It's Homestuck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 10:13
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? Meat is worth the read. Candy is, for the most part, pretty miserable and mean spirited. That doesn't mean it's strictly bad, but its positive qualities are few enough that I feel like it's mostly defined by its miserableness.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 10:25
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? It’s not something I’d ever recommend to someone who’s never read homestuck, but if you already did and Act 7 left you with a feeling of “wait, that’s it” then what’s another novel between friends, really. there’s not even any flash rpg to deal with, just pure textual eau de homestuck. it’s one piece of candy, and it’s only wafer thin now otoh if you came off of act 7 like “it’s over, thank god it’s over” and still can’t look at astrological symbols in the daily horoscope without breaking into a cold sweat, yeah skip this
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? It is INTENSELY Homestuck in terms of themes and metatextual stuff so if you're into that part of HS then I cannot recommend it enough, there's so much to unpack and piece together between the two parts, even if parts of it are somewhat difficult/uncomfortable to read.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 13:40
|
|
|
If you want the epilogue to function as an actual epilogue or at least tie up the numerous loose ends of the story proper, then you will be disappointed. It’s more of a bridge to a sequel then anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 14:03
|
|
|
If you don't want to read it, don't read it. For me, it occupies the exact same psychic space as does any work of fanfiction, in that regardless of whatever else I may personally feel about it, there's a marked separation between it and what I know and regard as Homestuck. As engaging, thought-provoking, and well-written as it is, at the end of the day, it is just fanfiction to me.
Plom Bar fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 14:21
|
|
|
Pants Donkey posted:If you want the epilogue to function as an actual epilogue or at least tie up the numerous loose ends of the story proper, then you will be disappointed. Yeah I don't think its actually miserable or meanspirited because it's more of a bridge towards Homestuck 2 than a real epilogue and there's a lot of set up for things to improve. Also its really drat well-written imo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 14:28
|
|
|
I'd say that Candy is miserable and meanspirited; everybody's unhappy. Meat is a gripping heel-turn by Dirk. I'm rereading both of them right now, and it's worth it to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 15:49
|
|
|
I thought I had a pretty good handle on things and the story couldn't really surprise me too bad anymore and then we get Dave going on a vision quest with Obama Edit: Oh hey Dirk's also Tarquin from Order Of The Stick, that's neat. Dolash fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 15:52
|
|
|
I'm struck by how badly the two authors who are talking (Hussie isn't) are handling fan reactions. One of them complained Saturday evening that people were speed-reading and therefore missing the details. Another, on the podcast I mentioned yesterday, said over and over that "people [meaning characters] can't be happy all the time". "You are interrogating the narrative from the wrong perspective" is never a good look from a creator. In particular, though, I don't think they're acknowledging the degree to which the tone of the epilogue content is a shock compared to the tone of Homestuck. I'm not saying the tone is wrong, and I'm not saying it isn't upsetting to have your work dumped on. I am saying that when you write an extremely dark work in which most of the characters are miserable, you should accept (if not expect) that people who are invested in those characters will be unhappy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 16:34
|
|
|
Attestant posted:Glancing at all the spoilers in this threads... Everything about this just sounds kinda miserable, mean spirited and not worth the read? It is emotionally challenging but I don't think it's mean spirited. There's a lot of good under that difficulty, in a way that is like, intentionally reflective of real adulthood, but fed through the absurd metaphysical style of homestuck. It's hard and sad and I get people not liking it because of that, but I liked it a lot Also here's a Twitter thread by one of the writers talking abt this line of thought in more detail https://twitter.com/ayshaufarah/status/1120674105966104576?s=19
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 16:40
|
|
|
Here is my take on that thread. "This is my existentialist worldview" is valid, but "the epilogue is what Real Life (tm) is like" is not. I have a loving chronic pain condition, I'm coping with family crises, and I nonetheless have more moments of daily joy in my life than anybody in Candy who isn't Roxy, Rose, or Kanaya. Sure, poo poo happens, both to us and to the people we love, and that's real. But grace happens, too, and I don't see that on-pixel. Hussie wanted bleakness, and that's a valid authorial choice. But don't tell me that is what Real Life is unavoidably like.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 17:14
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:I'm struck by how badly the two authors who are talking (Hussie isn't) are handling fan reactions. One of them complained Saturday evening that people were speed-reading and therefore missing the details. Another, on the podcast I mentioned yesterday, said over and over that "people [meaning characters] can't be happy all the time". My personal issue with Candy (I take no issue with Meat, I think it's a genuinely fantastic piece of writing) is that it meanders around, sabotages its own themes - which are pretty loose to begin with - and ends up losing coherency as a result. If you want to go as dark as Candy goes, I feel like you need to sell it, especially when it's in direct contrast with an extremely dark work that does sell it. Meat's gratuitously upsetting segments all feel like they come from somewhere natural and believable. Candy's gratuitously upsetting segments often feel like an attempt to mine black comedy from the kind of "fluffy" fanfic it initially presents itself as. The characters are secondary to the gags about what this kind of fanfic is "like". There's plenty to like in there, but it doesn't hang together as a novel-length piece of writing. It's more like a series of loosely connected vignettes, some better than others, that takes a shot at an overarching theme but doesn't really get there. And the "twist" - that John was being solipsistic all along, and actually nothing sinister is going on here - isn't adequately supported by the text to land like it wants to. I don't mind that the characters are miserable - I just think they're miserable in a way that's ultimately not very coherent or interesting.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Here is my take on that thread. "This is my existentialist worldview" is valid, but "the epilogue is what Real Life (tm) is like" is not. I have a loving chronic pain condition, I'm coping with family crises, and I nonetheless have more moments of daily joy in my life than anybody in Candy who isn't Roxy, Rose, or Kanaya. Yeah, absolutely. Candy is visibly Not Real. The level of misery, alienation, and contrived melodrama that dominates the story - Roxy and John not talking to each other about the weirdness he's been noticing for decades, Roxy placidly supporting genocide, Gamzee being fawningly accepted and adored by everyone around him despite the fact that he's a reeking, sexually aggressive misogy-clown - is intentionally overblown and dark, not some attempt at naturalistic characterisation. (Or, if it is, it's one that's goofy levels of bad - Roxy's "what, you think people always just act one way their whole lives?" spiel to John is hard to swallow when it comes on the heels of tens of thousands of words where Roxy is uncharacteristically evil, passive and stupid.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
You can't take either part on its own, basically.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 17:38
|
|
|
Android Blues posted:. If you want to go as dark as Candy goes, I feel like youneed to sell it, especially when it's in direct contrast with an extremely dark work that does sell it. Meat's gratuitously upsetting segments all feel like they come from somewhere natural and believable. Candy's gratuitously upsetting segments often feel like an attempt to mine black comedy from the kind of "fluffy" fanfic it initially presents itself as. The characters are secondary to the gags about what this kind of fanfic is "like". I like your entire take, but these bits in particular nail down what was bothering me. Thanks for the brain food.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 17:47
|
|
|
Sheesh. What a joyless, unhappy, hollow pair of reads that was, with a tremendous amount of pointlessly creepy content. Even the final achievement of Ultimate Selves was weirdly plain for such a transcendent concept. There is absolutely no love left in this work or its messages. I will never understand how an author can have so much contempt for all of their characters - kill all your darlings, but nobody was ever darling to begin with in this story.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
Here's an example of a Candy joke that doesn't land for me. You jerks wanted Feferi back? Well, here she is, being forced to endure sexual harassment by Eridan. YAAAY. That wasn't funny. Not just from a feminist "we hate assault jokes" perspective, but from a "what is this moment accomplishing?" perspective. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Here's an example of a Candy joke that doesn't land for me. It's mostly a joke about Eridan redemption, as in they are bullshit. That's how I read it anyway.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Here's an example of a Candy joke that doesn't land for me. I read that as one of many "this is what the fanbase was yelling for at one point" not Feferi's return, but "Eridian redeemed and also getting the girl" because a bunch of the fanbase self-identified with Eridian as "a nice guy who just couldn't take it anymore". It wasn't a joke, just another "the thing you want for your happy candy ending is actually creepy and terrible when it actually happens" in a long list of them. Black August posted:I will never understand how an author can have so much contempt for all of their characters - kill all your darlings, but nobody was ever darling to begin with in this story. I'm pretty sure it's just contempt for the fanbase, at least on the Candy side of things. Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 18:51
|
|
|
There is nothing just or heroic about getting laid in the back of your Dad's lovely sedan and then dying because a pimp bit you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:09
|
|
|
Ursine Catastrophe posted:I'm pretty sure it's just contempt for the fanbase, at least on the Candy side of things. Contempt for the fanbase, even in a metatextual work like this, is equally hollow and despicable. There’s no love with the contempt to make it human, it’s just pure and exhaustive hatred, and not funny at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:12
|
|
|
Separate yourself from any notion of fandom meta-commentary. The point of that sequence was that Gamzee, whose association with Jane has turned him into a public figure, has pivoted his obviously-bullshit "redemption arc" into a cynical religious movement whose primary purpose is for awful people to rationalize their awfulness and regain access to their victims just like he himself did, and John is watching people continue to fall for it in huge numbers, which in turn is deepening his alienation from a world he increasingly doesn't believe in. The Homestuck Epilogues is very dark.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:14
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Here is my take on that thread. "This is my existentialist worldview" is valid, but "the epilogue is what Real Life (tm) is like" is not. I have a loving chronic pain condition, I'm coping with family crises, and I nonetheless have more moments of daily joy in my life than anybody in Candy who isn't Roxy, Rose, or Kanaya. You also don't have an omnipotent narrator trying to psychologically manipulate you into not using your powers of omnipresence to change reality (I assume). Ursine Catastrophe posted:I'm pretty sure it's just contempt for the fanbase, at least on the Candy side of things. Contempt for the characters and contempt for the fanbase are not mutually exclusive concepts, if anything they feed into each other pretty readily. Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:20
|
|
|
I don't really read any contempt into this at all? I don't think it could come from any place but love for the characters and the story, even if it's incredibly painful to get through.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
Almost there now. Just a little more. I'm still sort of leery of ghost Calliope, even at this point. Some of Dirk's critiques have teeth, which is of course part of what makes him an effective manipulator. The paradox of trying to be an impartial narrator to allow the existence of free will while also fighting someone through story manipulation is giving me some real Camus vibes, the Absurd and all that (I, too, have Wikipedia bookmarks). She's trying to deny her agency as the facilitator of the events of the story while also using it. She does have an agenda, even if her agenda is to try and stop the propagation of agendas via narrative manipulation. It's basically a matter of faith that this cosmic angel sent from above has peoples' best interests at heart through attempting impartial detachment, which isn't too far from Dirk claiming he had everyone's best interest at heart - at least, it's not cosmically different. Calliope is maybe more powerful, so she gets to set the rules. But hey, Dirk is out of the question unacceptable, and it's unclear who the allegedly neutral no-identity-having speaker was before these two started fighting over the job, so bottom line it's probably for the best.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:24
|
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:You also don't have an omnipotent narrator trying to psychologically manipulate you into not using your powers of omnipresence to change reality (I assume).
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:20 |
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:Yes, but philosopher dude speaking on Twitter was explicitly saying that he was talking about real life and the nature of real life. I know, I was just making a joke. Dolash posted:Almost there now. Just a little more. I'm still sort of leery of ghost Calliope, even at this point. Some of Dirk's critiques have teeth, which is of course part of what makes him an effective manipulator. The paradox of trying to be an impartial narrator to allow the existence of free will while also fighting someone through story manipulation is giving me some real Camus vibes, the Absurd and all that (I, too, have Wikipedia bookmarks). She's trying to deny her agency as the facilitator of the events of the story while also using it. She does have an agenda, even if her agenda is to try and stop the propagation of agendas via narrative manipulation. It's basically a matter of faith that this cosmic angel sent from above has peoples' best interests at heart through attempting impartial detachment, which isn't too far from Dirk claiming he had everyone's best interest at heart - at least, it's not cosmically different. Calliope is maybe more powerful, so she gets to set the rules. I think it's pretty clear by this point that the best option is not Dirk or Calliope or the third mysterious person who is probably Aranea but rather no narrator at all
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2019 19:34
|
|