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WatermelonGun posted:there have never been any nonsensical plans in star wars WatermelonGun posted:i challenge any of you to explain what the gently caress luke’s plan was to rescue han. You're right, but it's not that everyone is just incompetent and that's how the plot rolls forward. Luke is an idiot, sure, especially in the first half of the trilogy. But he's kind of supposed to be. He's more or less just along for the ride in all of ANH until the end when he actually makes the decision to turn the targeting computer off and use the Force. Luke's plan to rescue Han, if you mean at the start of 6, was probably to use Force mind trick to negotiate on easy mode. Leia is there as backup in case that doesn't work. Turns out Jabba isn't susceptible which Luke would have known if he wasn't a nitwit and Jabba is also used to catching undercover people seeing as how he is a crime lord. And yeah it's not all very well thought out. But Jabba is not an incompetent idiot here. Regarding the OT, I don't think there's any point at which I could say "yeah, this whole plot point only functions if all the characters involved switch their brains off and don't ever talk to each other." The new movies are like watching tweedledee v tweedledum. OT definitely relies on blind luck more than once, sure, but there is still a coherent long shot plan behind that blind luck. The whole thing is scrappy underdogs vs galactic empire, there's gonna be some long shots and blind luck. At least there's a character there to warn Han he's doing a risky thing, at which point he quips back "never tell me the odds." Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 18:35
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why the gently caress did lando and 3po need to be there then.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:39
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'Cuz Lando is gonna do what Lando wants to do. You try telling him he can't help rescue his friend. The droids are there as the ostensible bargaining chip and besides 3PO can translate in case they run into an alien whose language they don't speak which is likely given where they are going. R2 is all around useful as a way to hack into security systems. The characters aren't all intelligent - but they are acting coherently with their internal logic. There's 0 reason the FO doesn't send out TIE fighters to finish the job during that slow chase. YES there are small screw ups on the Empire's part in OT that let the rebels come out on top. But they make you feel that the rebels were lucky to have escaped, not that the Empire is just incompetent as a whole. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 18:40
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Like they establish early that 4 TIE fighters are enough to cause serious damage to the rebel ships. Alright granted a force user is flying one of them. Later, Hux is pissed off that they can't kill a few rebel ships. But... he can. Send out the hundreds/thousands of TIE fighters they have. Is he just an idiot?
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Apr 23, 2019 18:43
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why would the empire build a destructo chute so obvious disney retconned it almost 40 years later
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Apr 23, 2019 18:45
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star wars is dumb as gently caress. there are plenty of things to dislike about tlj other than plot holes that broke everyone’s brain a year and a half ago so hard they just can’t let it go.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:48
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This thread made me realize I haven't watched the original Star Wars in a long time. I barely remember anything about the plot or story except broad concepts (Luke must save friends, Han gets frozen in carbonite, things like that.) It also reminds me of the first time I met a true Star Wars fan. It was in high school in the mid 90s and even tho he was a cool guy and a friend of mine I couldn't get over how weird it was that this guy was so into a movie that came out (at the time) over 15 years ago.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:48
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WatermelonGun posted:why would the empire build a destructo chute so obvious disney retconned it almost 40 years later So obvious that the rebels had to (offscreen, granted) sacrifice tons of operatives to get a copy of the plans which then after studying revealed said destructo chute to them? The real mistake there was that the DS was totally unescorted but again that was Tarkin being hubris driven and overconfident - he didn't think the rebels had any chance with or without the escort fleet at his side.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:48
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WatermelonGun posted:star wars is dumb as gently caress. there are plenty of things to dislike about tlj other than plot holes that broke everyone’s brain a year and a half ago so hard they just can’t let it go. This is just a poor criticism, sorry. Star Wars has dumb things, but they are generally consistent with the internal logic of the universe and the context of what is happening. Nothing is SO BAD that it makes people's brains break for a year and a half. Like you're basically saying there's no difference between movies with some plot holes and logic errors and movies that are riddled with them to the point that the audience's suspension of disbelief is broken 20 minutes in. It's not just 1 or 0. Maybe it was dumb that the Empire gunners were lazy and didn't want to shoot the apparently empty escape pod at the beginning of ANH (which had the droids in it, obv). But it is believable that a couple gunners would be lazy and doesn't cause the audience to be bewildered. It doesn't rise to the level of Hux not just sending out more TIE fighters while being pissed that he can't do anything to kill the rebels.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:50
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Moridin920 posted:This is just a poor criticism, sorry. Star Wars has dumb things, but they are generally consistent with the internal logic of the universe and the context of what is happening. Nothing is SO BAD that it makes people's brains break for a year and a half. why would chewbacca do a tarzan yell. he hasn’t seen tarzan.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:52
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Actually if you consult EU book #5, The Rising Tide,
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Apr 23, 2019 18:53
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WatermelonGun posted:there have never been any nonsensical plans in star wars let the wookie win
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Apr 23, 2019 18:53
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also your angry internet friends don’t represent “the audience.” kids are the audience, and my dumbass little cousin loved it. the movie made plenty of money* and star wars will continue to inspire the sweatshop workers who make the toys. *in before some racist idiot yells IMAGINE A MOVIE SO BAD CHINA WONT WATCH IT
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Apr 23, 2019 18:56
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That's fine but it doesn't mean it is immune to criticism. There's a lot of movies that are box office successes but are not very good pieces of film and vice versa. quote:the movie made plenty of money* and star wars will continue to inspire the sweatshop workers who make the toys. If that's your metric for what good means. I'm not trying to say arghh no one can like or enjoy this movie. If there wasn't some fondness to begin with I wouldn't bother writing critical posts about it. It'd just be another random movie I don't care about. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 18:57
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3PO is there to make sure R2 gets in. R2 is essential to the plan since he’s got Luke’s lightsaber. It’s a worthwhile question what Luke’s plan is in Return. What actually happens is quite convoluted and is never really explained outright in the movie. He doesn’t seem like a planning sort in any of the movies really, he’s quite impulsive and even (in Return specifically) mystical, and tends to go with what he feels is right rather than planning carefully or even listening to others’ advice. Luke’s message to Jabba says he always intended to show up and bargain with Jabba for Han in person. When he actually bargains it’s really more of a threat: give up Han or die. He expects violence, so he makes sure R2 (with lightsaber), 3PO, Lando, Leia, and Chewie are all there to help out if necessary. I don’t know what he would do if Leia’s rescue had come off though — Lando, Chewie and the droids would still be stuck there. Maybe Lando could get them out since he’s undercover but that’s not exactly a subtle group.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:57
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Moridin920 posted:That's fine but it doesn't mean it is immune to criticism. Lol I am not arguing this movie is “good.” I’m arguing the entire franchise is stupid garbage, and angry adult star wars fans are bad people.
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Apr 23, 2019 19:01
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I like how the guy constantly ranting about supposed angry people is in fact the only one posting who seems at all angry about anything.
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Apr 23, 2019 19:04
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The only good star wars was the one in 1977
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Apr 23, 2019 19:06
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Chomp8645 posted:I like how the guy constantly ranting about supposed angry people is in fact the only one posting who seems at all angry about anything. lol a guy pointed out a legit plot hole in the first movie and you immediately accused him of not watching the film, because you’re an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 23, 2019 19:07
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WatermelonGun posted:lol a guy pointed out a legit plot hole in the first movie and you immediately accused him of not watching the film, because you’re an rear end in a top hat. I don't think you followed our interaction very well.
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Apr 23, 2019 19:16
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Luke's plan in RotJ is to gently caress up the bad guys using his badass force powers because he's being tempted by the dark side. He knows it doesn't really matter how he goes about the rescue because he is powerful. He's just arrogantly striding in, choking dudes, etc., and it works because the force is strong.
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Apr 23, 2019 19:30
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Aight I am going to Big Beef City posted:let the wookie win
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Apr 23, 2019 19:33
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Farrier Theaks posted:The only good star wars was the one in 1977 The radio drama is actually also good
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Apr 23, 2019 19:37
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WatermelonGun posted:have fun making the same “jokes” ad nauseum until the next movie pisses you guys off. 28 pages and 40 of his own serious posts later, leaves after getting called out. mad about jokes being made in GBS. rip best start wars poster Watermelon gun Martman posted:Luke's plan in RotJ is to gently caress up the bad guys using his badass force powers because he's being tempted by the dark side. He knows it doesn't really matter how he goes about the rescue because he is powerful. He's just arrogantly striding in, choking dudes, etc., and it works because the force is strong. I don't think I ever even put it together that he was being tempted by the dark side there in using his powers. I do remember thinking he'd made a really big leap in ability or whatever. How much time was supposed to have gone on before they rescue Han for him to train up to do that poo poo? Like was Han just frozen in Jabbas palace for 2 years while Luke did yoga somewhere to get ready? Big Beef City fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 19:54
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lol, he mad
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Apr 23, 2019 20:10
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A poster who ragequit he own troll thread. A shameful poster.
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Apr 23, 2019 20:18
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It's about a year I think between 5 and 6 but you need dates from EU stuff to figure that out. The movies aren't clear.
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Apr 23, 2019 20:23
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In rotj at the start of the big final duel scene, why did Vader stop Luke from striking down the emperor in a fit of dark side rage? Wouldn't that have perfectly fulfilled his plan?
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Apr 23, 2019 20:45
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Magnitogorsk. posted:In rotj at the start of the big final duel scene, why did Vader stop Luke from striking down the emperor in a fit of dark side rage? Wouldn't that have perfectly fulfilled his plan? Because killing the evil dark lord tyrant of an evil empire would have been BAD (Luke blowing up millions of people three days after leaving his farm is okay)
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Apr 23, 2019 20:52
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Magnitogorsk. posted:In rotj at the start of the big final duel scene, why did Vader stop Luke from striking down the emperor in a fit of dark side rage? Wouldn't that have perfectly fulfilled his plan? The Emperor's not really looking for Luke to actually kill him there, it's more like taunting/baiting him to draw Luke into surrendering fully to the Dark Side
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Apr 23, 2019 20:53
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:The Emperor's not really looking for Luke to actually kill him there, it's more like taunting/baiting him to draw Luke into surrendering fully to the Dark Side What IS his plan, then? Either he has to die so that Vader and Luke can rule the galaxy, Luke has to die so that he and Vader can keep at it, or Vader has to die so he can take Luke on as apprentice. If the plan is for Luke to come on board, Vader would know he's out the door, so why save the old man? It would make more sense to let Luke kill the emperor so he and Luke can become 1 and 2, why the gently caress would Vader even be going along with this whole goddamn plan? Vader knew the whole time there can only be two Sith lords, and he's one and he knows who the other one is, so when "the other one" tells you "Let's bring someone else into our relationship", don't you start looking around a little, here?
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Apr 23, 2019 21:07
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poisonpill posted:If I had to guess, I would say it’s likely that there originally was a spy on the rebel ship, and that Holdo didn’t exist (Leia did all her scenes), and the casino planet/enemy ship thing was didn’t have Rose and instead had pilot guy. That would all have made the movie much more coherent and make a lot more sense. Then in shooting, Carrie Fisher was completely unable to be in her scenes, the studio demanded they add Rose, and somehow China demanded that there not be a spy or else the film wouldn’t make it past the censors. Then they had to make up a bunch of stuff to fix it while shooting and we ended up with this big mess. This all seems pretty on point. WatermelonGun posted:also your angry internet friends don’t represent “the audience.” kids are the audience lol see 37:40 for rebuttal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw&t=2261s Farrier Theaks posted:The only good star wars was the one in 1977 and yet we have endless starwar Martman posted:Luke's plan in RotJ is to gently caress up the bad guys using his badass force powers because he's being tempted by the dark side. He knows it doesn't really matter how he goes about the rescue because he is powerful. He's just arrogantly striding in, choking dudes, etc., and it works because the force is strong. Haven't thought about it in a while but yeah, he's shot in a pretty ambiguous, even ominous way early on in RoTJ.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:13
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Big Beef City posted:What IS his plan, then? It’s reflexive. Serving the emperor has been a part of him since his initial fall to the dark side (also involving him defending a defenceless Palpatine from an attacking Jedi btw). He can talk a big game about replacing the emperor and ruling the galaxy when he’s off on his own, but he won’t openly rebel against Palpatine’s commands. He’s been the emperor’s slave and is only deluding himself when he speaks of being free to rule the galaxy as father and son. He makes the EXACT same offer to Padmé on Mustafar, but then goes right back to being the emperor’s slave.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:15
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Big Beef City posted:What IS his plan, then? The whole "Rule of Two" thing seems kind of hamfisted and dumb, but this is what I'd guess. Palpatine is the Master, so Vader has to go along with everything because he's only the Apprentice. Palpatine wants Luke to join because he'd be a more powerful Apprentice, and wants Luke to kill Vader. Palpatine goads Luke to try and kill him because Vader won't allow it since that would mean Luke is the new Master according to Sith rules. Vader wants Luke to join him, so that Vader can kill Palpatine and become the new Master with Luke (or Leia, should Luke fail) as his Apprentice.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:23
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The last five or six posts have put more thought into how star war works than Rian Johnson did at any point.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:26
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Chomp8645 posted:The last five or six posts have put more thought into how star war works than Rian Johnson did at any point. You thought Rain John was gonna think hard about it all but actually he was subverting your expectations the whole time
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Apr 23, 2019 21:37
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Bogus Adventure posted:The whole "Rule of Two" thing seems kind of hamfisted and dumb, but this is what I'd guess. Palpatine is the Master, so Vader has to go along with everything because he's only the Apprentice. Palpatine wants Luke to join because he'd be a more powerful Apprentice, and wants Luke to kill Vader. Palpatine goads Luke to try and kill him because Vader won't allow it since that would mean Luke is the new Master according to Sith rules. Vader wants Luke to join him, so that Vader can kill Palpatine and become the new Master with Luke (or Leia, should Luke fail) as his Apprentice. Yeah I think this is it. I agree that the rule of two thing is a bit hamfisted and dumb. Thought that ever since I saw how Malak operated in KOTOR. Like dude you're just gonna purge your best officers that way *shrug*
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Apr 23, 2019 21:39
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Big Beef City posted:What IS his plan, then? Jedi was a bad movie.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:48
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Bogus Adventure posted:The whole "Rule of Two" thing seems kind of hamfisted and dumb, but this is what I'd guess. Palpatine is the Master, so Vader has to go along with everything because he's only the Apprentice. Palpatine wants Luke to join because he'd be a more powerful Apprentice, and wants Luke to kill Vader. Palpatine goads Luke to try and kill him because Vader won't allow it since that would mean Luke is the new Master according to Sith rules. Vader wants Luke to join him, so that Vader can kill Palpatine and become the new Master with Luke (or Leia, should Luke fail) as his Apprentice. I agree it's dumb, but it also seems to be "a thing" that's mostly stuck around. If what you say is accurate, and it seems like it would be, I guess (and this just goes right to 'star wars just doesn't make sense lol' ground, I suppose), why doesn't Palpatine just loving kill Vader himself then? He made Vader, I'm sure he can break him (he does, after all). Just explode Vaders head like a popcorn kernel in the throne room in front of Luke, who's already struggling with the dark side, and be like "See that? That was pretty loving sweet, huh? You wanna learn how to do that one?" At that point Vader is dead, and luke can sit on a couch and watch the Rebel fleet be destroyed whole-sale and maybe have a cocktail or two and has absolutely zero loose ends to tie up on either a personal or professional level. Instead it has to be this complicated last minute affair where even if Luke doesn't turn to the dark side, it's not like Vader is gonna really LOVE Palpatine after this. He's basically shooting himself in the dick for no reason with this plan that goes off the rails no matter almost HOW he plays it after spending his entire lifetime meticulously planning forming an entire empirical coup and learning to become the dark lord of the sith in secret somehow without being detected.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:49
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Applewhite posted:Jedi was a bad movie. It is the 7th worst mainline SW movie
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Apr 23, 2019 21:50
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