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Big Beef City posted:I agree it's dumb, but it also seems to be "a thing" that's mostly stuck around. Luke needs to make the decision to kill Vader himself, and in so doing accept the dark side and so on. There's no guarantee that this show of force would turn Luke and that he wouldn't just yell and suicide the emperor versus going "oh sweet alright I don't care about my friends anymore." The emperor wants to put Luke in a position where Luke feels he has fallen and even if he does care about his friends it is too late. Besides if Luke can't kill Vader then no point in swapping out apprentices. (personally I think Vader could wipe the floor with Luke if he actually tried - dude has literally been hunting Jedi since Luke was born) quote:it's not like Vader is gonna really LOVE Palpatine after this I don't think it matters really. That relationship isn't built on trust and love to begin with and the whole Sith "thing" is that the apprentice is eventually supposed to kill and supplant the master or else get replaced by a worthier apprentice at some point. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 21:52
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah I think this is it. Malak loses regardless of choice, lol Big Beef City posted:I agree it's dumb, but it also seems to be "a thing" that's mostly stuck around. Moridin920 posted:Luke needs to make the decision to kill Vader himself, and in so doing accept the dark side and so on. There's no guarantee that this show of force would turn Luke and that he wouldn't just yell and suicide the emperor versus going "oh sweet alright I don't care about my friends anymore." Yeah, I think it's the choice that matters. The Star Wars movies are hero's journey stories, so you need to have the protagonist make a conscious choice between Good and Evil.
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Apr 23, 2019 22:29
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There was none of this "Rule of Two" bullshit when they shot RotJ so it's not really worth bringing up as a hard constraint of the scene, but yeah, Palpatine and Vader's aims in the climax are only partially aligned in that they both want to turn Luke. Vader wants to do it so they can merk the Emperor together and he can be the boss, and the Emperor wants to do it because he thinks Luke could be a better henchman(presuming he embraces the Dark Side and beats Vader). The plan breaks down because Luke doesn't win or lose, he decides not to play, and the gesture behind it causes Vader to have a change of heart and decide he'd rather just die killing the Emperor to save Luke than live and be the boss Put another way, Vader can't take Palpatine in a straight fight but he thinks he could if he had Luke's help, and Luke can't take Vader in a straight fight without giving in to the Dark Side, and Dark Side Luke still can't take the Emperor in a straight fight but would probably be down to hench. Does that make sense?
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Apr 23, 2019 22:33
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From the moment she appeared in the film I felt a really deep love for Holdo, mainly because it was awesome to see a femme woman being put into a position of authority after General Leia. When Poe sees Holdo, he has doubts about her abilities and her intellect, and for me, from the beginning, I felt like Rian Johnson was making a very powerful point about the way we view female leadership. I know a lot of people are like: “Why didn’t she just tell Poe or anyone else the plan?” Well, the answer is simple: the Rebels, bless their hearts, are bad at sticking to plans and understanding the long game. We see at the VERY beginning of the movie that Poe disobeys and turns off his headset during an attack that Leia explicitly told him not to engage in, that left them with less fighting power and caused many deaths. It takes very little for everyone to abandon faith in Holdo for remaining calm and sticking with her guns by keeping her plan close to the vest. The reason why is clear—if she had told them that she planned to die on the ship, they would have tried to stop her. Poe would absolutely have tried to stop her because he’s an impulsive person who believes he knows best. That was made evident at the beginning. The First Order rules through fear and intimidation even though its leaders are loud and incompetent man babies—see Hux’s petty snarls and Kyle Ren’s tears of nepotism angst. Holdo attempts to rule through faith and self-sacrifice rather than aggressive tactics and being totally open. That makes people distrust her because again, despite her reputation, they trust Poe more. Poe who, again, got their comrades killed in an attack that destroyed a warship yes, but also left them unable to defend themselves in other ways. If Luke and Rey hadn’t shown up they would have died. Holdo was not a perfect character because, in addition to being a character, she was also representing the distrust we have for female authority. When men or coaches talk about having faith and “trusting them” even when something seems out of reach, we have been taught to trust them because their experience matters. The fact that Leia trusted Holdo didn’t matter to the rebels and that is disappointing and it is the actions of Poe that lead to … more death. So while everyone asks: “Why Holdo didn’t do this?” Why don’t we ask how Poe made it this far up in the military if he has such a hard time listening and taking orders from his superior officers? Poe was wrong and yet somehow Holdo is the one who needed to change tactics? But beyond all of these things, I enjoy Holdo because she, like Rose, gives women another way to be strong. With her long lavender robe and bright hair, polished nails and jewelry, Holdo show that there are different ways to be a powerful warrior woman. That being so true to yourself and your own style doesn’t make you inferior, the right to be an individual is what the rebels are fighting for. Also if you underestimate her … that’s to your own downfall. I would say that if you want to learn more about Holdo, read the Leia, Princess of Alderaan book because it introduces a young Holdo and her first words are: “I hope it’s dangerous. I want to get more comfortable with the nearness and inevitability of death.”
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Apr 23, 2019 23:27
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Magnitogorsk. posted:In rotj at the start of the big final duel scene, why did Vader stop Luke from striking down the emperor in a fit of dark side rage? Wouldn't that have perfectly fulfilled his plan? Vader doesn't really have a plan. He may "want" to kill the Emperor, but he is totally subservient, to the point that Palpatine even fully expects him to go along with turning his replacement to the dark side. Unfortunately for him, in the end, the Emperor's expectations were subverted.
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Apr 24, 2019 00:16
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Mooey Cow posted:Unfortunately for him, in the end, the Emperor's expectations were subverted. 
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Apr 24, 2019 00:22
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if you listen carefully you can hear the Emperor scream "my expectatioooonnnsss" as he falls down the reactor shaft
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Apr 24, 2019 00:25
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suck my woke dick posted:
and Janeway legit had mental problems (or at least Kate Mulgrew supposedly played her that way because it was the only way the character made sense after a certain point)
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Apr 24, 2019 00:28
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skasion posted:Well I mean yeah, that’s the point. It’s an important part of how Lucas sets up the prequel Jedi as morally limited if not outright corrupt. Slavery has always been a big part of the Star Wars universe (think how C3PO and R2D2 are treated, like literal hardware to be auctioned off, not allowed in bars, even though we know they are basically people). How is this compatible with Jedi “for a thousand generations”? The whole question that the prequels are created to answer is essentially “if you’re so smart, how come you ain’t rich” to the Jedi. If they were so good and wise, how did two guys wipe them out? And why would someone genuinely good, like Anakin once was, convince himself that it was right to do so? Answer: they weren’t that good. They — even the good ones like Qui-Gon — let evil go on everywhere, telling themselves it was none of their business, until it bit their asses right off. Anakin being a slave whom they hypocritically free because it serves them is what shapes his whole attitude to the order’s moral teaching. You're talking about the Jedi as an organization; I'm talking about Obi-Wan Kenobi specifically. His morality is never questioned at any other point in any of the movies. He's portrayed as an upstanding, unambiguously good character throughout all of this, right up until the moment he gets killed by Darth Vader. Imagine if Alec Guinness in A New Hope was hanging out in the cantina with Han Solo and was suddenly like "oh hey can we pick up a few sex slaves for the journey? We can buy some straw and have them sleep in the cargo hold". That would be consistent with the intentions of George Lucas, as you've explained them. In reality George Lucas has never had a consistent plan and is just a shithead
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Apr 24, 2019 00:38
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Vim Fuego posted:From the moment she appeared in the film I felt a really deep love for Holdo, mainly because it was awesome to see a femme woman being put into a position of authority after General Leia. yes holdo is pretty much a representation of the 2016 democratic presidential campaign
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Apr 24, 2019 00:48
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QuarkJets posted:You're talking about the Jedi as an organization; I'm talking about Obi-Wan Kenobi specifically. His morality is never questioned at any other point in any of the movies. He's portrayed as an upstanding, unambiguously good character throughout all of this, right up until the moment he gets killed by Darth Vader. An upstanding unambiguously good character...from a certain point of view. He’s a liar who hid the truth from Luke to serve his own ends. Like really, I’m not saying he’s as bad as Vader or even close, but ESB and ROTJ are all about Luke’s journey taking him beyond merely learning from guys like Obi-wan and Yoda and coming to his own conclusions. Remember, Ben and Yoda both wanted to keep Vader’s true identity from Luke for as long as they could, because they believed Luke was their hitman to kill Vader and cover up their mistake. The idea that he could be redeemed they explicitly condemn, and Luke has to prove to them they’re wrong. skasion fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 01:07
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Holdo never explained why she would never visit the planet Wisk Onsin until her ignominious self-caused destruction
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Apr 24, 2019 01:07
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Vim Fuego posted:From the moment she appeared in the film I felt a really deep love for Holdo, mainly because it was awesome to see a femme woman being put into a position of authority after General Leia. 
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Apr 24, 2019 01:12
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skasion posted:An upstanding unambiguously good character...from a certain point of view. He’s a liar who hid the truth from Luke to serve his own ends. Indeed, he was secretly protecting this boy for his entire life and chose not to tell him that he's secretly the son of Hitler, that truly is just as bad as embracing the institution of slavery (???)
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Apr 24, 2019 01:13
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Luke was Bernie Sanders except his portrayal in the movie is from the point of view of Holdo.
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Apr 24, 2019 01:14
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QuarkJets posted:Indeed, he was secretly protecting this boy for his entire life and chose not to tell him that he's secretly the son of Hitler, that truly is just as bad as embracing the institution of slavery (???) He doesn’t embrace it — like modern westerners he thinks it is abhorrent. But he is tacit towards its continued practice. It’s good to save Anakin from it, but it’s too much to save everyone from it.
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Apr 24, 2019 01:17
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Truth hurts bud. If you ever tell your kid that his dog is going to the farm or replace his dead brainless gold fish with an identical one, you are basically chaotic evil.
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Apr 24, 2019 01:20
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Hemingway To Go! posted:Luke was Bernie Sanders lmao
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Apr 24, 2019 01:21
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Rise of the Skywalkers should be Bill a Clinton again
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Apr 24, 2019 01:26
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Hemingway To Go! posted:yes holdo is pretty much a representation of the 2016 democratic presidential campaign loving THANK YOU.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:48
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:pfffft lol Disney got the deal of a century, scoring the entire star wars franchise for a mere 1.6 Minecrafts
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Apr 24, 2019 03:04
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This will all have been worth it if Poe and Finn kiss.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:56
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Applewhite posted:This will all have been worth it if Poe and Finn kiss. Oh they'll kiss... other people! How're your expectations right now? Are they a little.... Subverted?
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Apr 24, 2019 04:19
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Vim Fuego posted:From the moment she appeared in the film I felt a really deep love for Holdo, mainly because it was awesome to see a femme woman being put into a position of authority after General Leia. Source your quotes.
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Apr 24, 2019 04:37
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Source your quotes. the Leia, Princess of Alderaan book, it says right there at the end
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Apr 24, 2019 04:51
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poisonpill posted:the Leia, Princess of Alderaan book, it says right there at the end Thst doesn't explain "the rest of the garbage" - Princess Leia, Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
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Apr 24, 2019 05:07
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KillerJunglist posted:Oh they'll kiss... other people! [in extremely Hank Hill voice] Bwuhh!
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Apr 24, 2019 05:35
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KillerJunglist posted:Oh they'll kiss... other people! 
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Apr 24, 2019 06:50
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skasion posted:He doesn’t embrace it — like modern westerners he thinks it is abhorrent. But he is tacit towards its continued practice. It’s good to save Anakin from it, but it’s too much to save everyone from it. They bartered for Anakin. They literally treated him like property. The movie doesn't convey either of the jedi expressing any form of abhorrence toward slavery. They are completely nonchalant about it, like it's the most normal thing in the universe for people to own other people.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:01
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Cuke Piestalker.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:07
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When you think about, Obi-wan drops his clothes when he dies, right? So then how come, as a ghost, he ain't nude? Where his Obi-wang at? 
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Apr 24, 2019 08:10
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Mooey Cow posted:When you think about, Obi-wan drops his clothes when he dies, right? So then how come, as a ghost, he ain't nude? Where his Obi-wang at? It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the universe together.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:29
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with regards to jedi and slavery in the prequel trilogy: i never got the sense that they were indifferent to it. in fact, i'll bet there's some throwaway line about how they aren't fans of the system i just figured they went along with it cuz they were fish out of water, stranded in another culture far away from the republic's centers of power. what are they gonna do? lead a massive rebellion every time they come across a culture they don't like? they're just 2 dudes. they already tried mind control and it failed. outright violence seems a bit overzealous. pretty sure they had some "larger goal" to attend to. its not even that unusual a thing, to go along with societal norms that you may object too. there are plenty of regressive places in the world today.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:32
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I want to see an Admiral Holdo stand alone prequel movie where she wins awards teaching gender studies at the space university. Make over half the run time actual lectures delivered TED-style. Low production cost, high profit margin. Win-win.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:33
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Holdo is not only the worst character in that film, she also represents the worst acting of Dern's career
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Apr 24, 2019 10:14
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RaySmuckles posted:with regards to jedi and slavery in the prequel trilogy: anakin's mom is right there when they leave, she's not in chains they could have easily taken her with them. the gently caress is anyone going to do about it? anakin and his mom are literally the only 2 slaves shown in the entire movie, and the jedi basically buy one of them and leave the other
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Apr 24, 2019 10:45
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Never really thought about it but Episode 1 the Phantom Pain might have been improved with Obi-Wan inciting a slave revolt on Tatooine Would have given him something to do in the movie at least
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Apr 24, 2019 10:49
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QuarkJets posted:anakin's mom is right there when they leave, she's not in chains they could have easily taken her with them. the gently caress is anyone going to do about it? I think the point might be that AJAB
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Apr 24, 2019 11:05
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I’m not saying that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan even should have started freeing all the slaves, it’s just that the fact that they don’t — that they take Anakin because they sense the force in him while leaving his mother behind — is the thing that sets the tone for Anakin’s relationship with the Jedi Order. When he freaks out shouting things like “I see through the lies of the Jedi” that’s the kind of thing he’s thinking about. One of the first things Anakin’s character says about the Jedi is that he had a dream he became a Jedi who came back to Tatooine and freed all the slaves, and that must be why Qui-Gon is here. But it’s not why, and no one ever does.
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Apr 24, 2019 11:18
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hello i am a space priest, here to purchase your son and teach him all sorts of new things
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Apr 24, 2019 11:19
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