|
Son of Sam-I-Am posted:To be clear, are you saying Discovery does this the way old Trek does? I mean that is a legitimate gripe one can level at certain episodes of The Orville, and I would say they are among the poorer ones, although I would argue a good deal of the Moclan episodes and some others like Gordon's rescued POW friend are a lot more thorny. I haven't watched Discovery at all
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 04:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 23:37 |
|
|
Orv posted:Having watched the DS9 school episode this morning and the Orville transgender episode just now I think this is fairly spot on. the Moclan gender episode was notably poorly handled, although I'd argue they handled it slightly better the next couple times they revisited it. However, while I'm not Memory Alpha, I can't think of any Trek episode that dealt with mandatory gender reassignment across an entire race, nor could I imagine any Trek series handling it in any less of a clunky and misguided manner.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 04:59
|
|
|
I'm a vehement TOS-lover, DS9 appreciator and enjoyer, TNG liker, and TAS champion Voyager is meh and Enterprise sucks. disco is a mystery.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 04:59
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:the Moclan gender episode was notably poorly handled, although I'd argue they handled it slightly better the next couple times they revisited it. There is that one where riker liked that zhe who said she was a she and then zhey turned her into a zhe
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:00
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:the Moclan gender episode was notably poorly handled, although I'd argue they handled it slightly better the next couple times they revisited it. Oh I don't think they'd do any better, what I meant was that Trek also frequently approaches its moral problems from a writing point of being solved already and just having the get the party who is wrong to that conclusion. Orville did this, Trek did it, it wasn't particularly why I thought Orville E3 was bad but it didn't help. (Even if the reality of the real issue is that people are people and gently caress anyone who thinks otherwise.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:01
|
|
|
Yes, as someone who watches the Orville, every character is perfect and always agrees with the audience. Uh huh. I've definitely seen it. I have friends who have seen it and despise it. Everyone else isn't a real Star Trek fan.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:There is that one where riker liked that zhe who said she was a she and then zhey turned her into a zhe yeah but Riker is a goddamned libertine renaissance man whom all men might only aspire to be
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
It's not the characters it's the thread of the narrative. At no point in the farmship episode is the perspective of the writing team unclear. Meanwhile, take an episode like "Cardassians" and there are many legitimate arguments to be made with respect to whether Sisko was right or wrong in returning Rugal, which could be made on many different grounds. It's not clear if the writing staff things Sisko's decision is inherently correct.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
I will also note Pick you're being a bit of a dick about this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:05
|
|
|
Orv posted:I will also note Pick you're being a bit of a dick about this. I'm a dick 100% of the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:06
|
|
|
lol but seriously posted:people comparing DISCO vs orville on matters of writing or whatehaveyou when the only question that matters is which ship would win in a fight Disco. But if it's a fistfight between Disco's Lt. Tyler (an undercover agent who becomes romantically involved with the series lead) and Orville's Lt. Tyler (an undercover agent who becomes romantically involved with the series lead), I'd have to give the nod to Orville. She'd mess Ash up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:07
|
|
|
Pick posted:I'm a dick 100% of the time. You know I was pretty sure John C. Reily was right but here we are.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:07
|
|
|
Orv posted:Oh I don't think they'd do any better, what I meant was that Trek also frequently approaches its moral problems from a writing point of being solved already and just having the get the party who is wrong to that conclusion. Orville did this, Trek did it, it wasn't particularly why I thought Orville E3 was bad but it didn't help. (Even if the reality of the real issue is that people are people and gently caress anyone who thinks otherwise.) Gotcha. Honestly, I've seen TNG once through and sporadic episodes a few times, and we're on our 2nd watchthrough of DS9 right now, so I can't really weigh in on this with any real knowledge. But IMO, Orville isn't supposed to be a stand-in for TNG. As much as Seth would probably love for it to be an actual Trek show (and it might have worked), the fact is that it's less cerebral and more generally humorous than TNG. I think that's a good thing - a show as deep as TNG would be great, but a generally upbeat and genial Trek show also works really well. e: and when I say "more generally humorous" I'm not trying to start another sub-debate, TNG is plenty funny in its own right, but "Data tries to understand human pranks so he amputates Riker's leg in his sleep and hides it somewhere on the ship" just wouldn't have worked as well. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:08
|
|
|
I'd say that's fair and I'd say it's not for me, I think. There's a long conversation to be had about just how cerebral a lot of Star Trek is, there are a whole lot of tremendously dumb episodes even in the good stuff, but I think that's probably another time. I do appreciate you all pointing me towards it, as my initial reaction had just been to brush it off given its provenance and I always need to be more open to at least trying stuff, regardless of how it ends up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:10
|
|
|
My basic position is that The Orville isn't Trek but it's as close as I'm gonna get in 2019 so I'll take it and also accepting it on its own terms instead of as an imitator it's had some drat fine episodes (and also some drat bad stinkers)
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:11
|
|
|
Pick posted:I haven't watched Discovery at all Come the gently caress on, Pick. You can't make a blanket statement like "all the women star trek fannes i know love discovery and all hate the orville so the orville is actually a super handy dumping ground for fake trek fans (i.e. men)" and then hide behind a strawman argument. You're better than this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:14
|
|
|
Yeah Trek is hard to pin down because the whole "cerebral" thing is a giant can of worms, tons of Trek from every single one of the series are just bonkers and dumb like you said. In all honesty (and I'm not applying this to you, or anybody ITT specifically), I genuinely wonder how much some peoples' opinions might be colored by a combo of Seth's previous reputation and also Fox's promos. Expectations and first impressions can carry a lot of weight, and to the show's detriment, Fox heavily pushed this show as "Family Guy Sci-Fi," and Seth's really never done anything that even remotely reached above lowest-common-denominator humor. Remember A Million Ways to Die in the West? Ugh.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:15
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:My basic position is that The Orville isn't Trek but it's as close as I'm gonna get in 2019 so I'll take it and also accepting it on its own terms instead of as an imitator it's had some drat fine episodes (and also some drat bad stinkers) Extremely this, basically. And I'll agree that there have been some bad/boring eps. But if we're doing TNG-Orville comparisons, maybe Season 1 isn't a great metric 
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:16
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:the Moclan gender episode was notably poorly handled, although I'd argue they handled it slightly better the next couple times they revisited it. What I appreciated about the (first) Moclan gender episode was that it ran like a functional Trek episode (Starfleet runs into alien situation they don't like, impassioned speech plus shocking twist puts the alien thing they don't like into disarray, ship flies off) but ends with the alien race going, spoiler blocking for the episode, "yeah no we're still doing what we always do, gently caress off". It was kind of refreshing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:18
|
|
|
Timby posted:Come the gently caress on, Pick. You can't make a blanket statement like "all the women star trek fannes i know love discovery and all hate the orville so the orville is actually a super handy dumping ground for fake trek fans (i.e. men)" and then hide behind a strawman argument. It's a simple fact that the female trek fans I know like Discovery a lot. Heck, that giant Discovery fan artbook with like 200 pages of Spock drawn as a dog is shipping this month.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:19
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:In all honesty (and I'm not applying this to you, or anybody ITT specifically), I genuinely wonder how much some peoples' opinions might be colored by a combo of Seth's previous reputation and also Fox's promos. Expectations and first impressions can carry a lot of weight, and to the show's detriment, Fox heavily pushed this show as "Family Guy Sci-Fi," and Seth's really never done anything that even remotely reached above lowest-common-denominator humor. Remember A Million Ways to Die in the West? Ugh. I bounced hard off The Orville when the pilot literally opened with a cumshot joke. I made it about 20 minutes into it before I just did the Jerry Seinfeld gif and turned it off. But it's pretty clearly Seth MacFarlane's ode to TNG, and all the reports that he sold Fox on a sci-fi sitcom as a backdoor way of doing nu-TNG himself (the second season has been drastically different from the way the show started) seem pretty accurate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:20
|
|
|
Timby posted:I bounced hard off The Orville when the pilot literally opened with a cumshot joke. I made it about 20 minutes into it before I just did the Jerry Seinfeld gif and turned it off. Yeah, that's about right. Honestly, there's been some murmuring about the fact that Fox still hasn't renewed it for a 3rd season, but if it got picked up by someone like Hulu or Netflix, I feel like it could really be something special. I've heard a lot of people getting extremely hyped for The Expanse's 4th season after it got dropped by SyFy and picked up by Amazon. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:23
|
|
|
It's weird, because The Family Research Council, of all people (you know, the Christian watchdog group that calls for boycotts of everything), actually defended Mcfarlane sort of. And they despise Family Guy. It was something like, "Look, we think the Orville is inappropriate for families, but also, as a reviewer, I think people are being unfair to Mcfarlane. I'll be the first to say that Family Guy is trash. But he was 24 when he created it. How fair is it to prejudge somebody for his entire life because of something he did when he was 24? Judge the show for what it is, not what you assume about him." It was a remarkably nuanced take for them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:25
|
|
|
I have no real opinion of McFarlane except a mildly good one that he did the ghost doctor on Hellboy 2.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:25
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Disco. But if it's a fistfight between Disco's Lt. Tyler (an undercover agent who becomes romantically involved with the series lead) and Orville's Lt. Tyler (an undercover agent who becomes romantically involved with the series lead), I'd have to give the nod to Orville. She'd mess Ash up. Oh, and if it comes down to a battle of which series's fast-time tree growth is more powerful, Orville wins that one too. The time-warped tree on Boreth was much gentler than the Arbor Day package.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:28
|
|
|
I'm on the bus back home from Hamilton right now and some people were listening to dolly Parton and when I asked them where they heard it they told me about this amazing show they saw called the Orville Holy loving poo poo
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 05:44
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:No, this guy is Wow, that figures. Fun fact, Patrick Warburton also played Buzz Lightyear in the cartoon spinoff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:08
|
|
|
I imagine all the Americans have already gone to bed so I will just post this out into the void Orville vs TNG Like-for-Like Moral Maze Complexity Matrix Orville 01) "Old Wounds"- not really that kind of episode null result 02) "Command Performance"- cartoon baddies 0/5 03) "About a Girl"- different viewpoints get an airing but the view of the writers is not really in doubt. not ending in the obvious way adds another point 4/5 04) "If the Stars Should Appear"- obvious takes 0/5 05) "Pria"- there is a little something about the morality of changing the timeline but it is not really that kind of episode null result 06) "Krill"- the krill are humanised a fair bit while also being portrayed as having a viewpoint totally incompatible with the Federation 4/5 07) "Majority Rule"- very on the nose black mirror episode 0/5 08) "Into the Fold"- not that kind of episode null result 09) "Cupid's Dagger"- problematic sex comedy which does not seem self aware negative 5/5 10) "Firestorm"-it is a mindscrew story. not really that kind of episode null result 11) "New Dimensions"- some decent stuff about the essentially collaborative nature of all success 3/5 12) "Mad Idolatry"- very old fashioned progressive view that all society tends to enlightened liberalism 0/5 13) "Ja'loja"- not that kind of episode null result 14) "Primal Urges"- not that kind of episode null result 15) "Home"- not that kind of episode null result 16)- "Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes"- the krill are humanised a fair bit while also being portrayed as having a viewpoint totally incompatible with the Federation 4/5 17)- "All the World Is Birthday Cake" - 0/5 18)- "A Happy Refrain" -can a robot feel love? what does that even mean 5/5 19)- "Deflectors"- P. complex with a downer ending 5/5 20)- "Identity"- can a robot feel friendship? what does that even mean 5/5 21)- "Identity Part II"- as above and also the Krill make a move towards peace which remains consistent with their own characterisation 5/5 22)- "Blood of Patriots"- the Krill make a move towards peace which remains consistent with their own characterisation but Gordon's mate drags down the average 3/5 23)- "Lasting Impressions" 3/5 24)- "Sanctuary"- there is some "cultural imperialism vs. the universal rights of women" stuff 4/5 25)- "Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow"- they deal with the ethics of dating a past version of an ex. 4/5 AVERAGE MORAL COMPLEXITY OF ELIGIBLE EPISODES: 2.2777777777' The TNG 01)- "Encounter at Farpoint"- all of humanity on cosmic trial and also the station is alive 5/5 02)- "Encounter at Farpoint"- all of humanity on cosmic trial and also the station is alive 5/5 03)- "The Naked Now"-more of a mystery episode null result 04)- "Code of Honor"-racist negative 5/5 05)- "The Last Outpost"-cartoon baddies 0/5 06)- "Where No One Has Gone Before"  null result07)- "Lonely Among Us"--cartoon baddies 0/5 BONUS FACT:Marc Alaimo's star trek debut 08)- "Justice"- they get into it a bit but there is never any doubt that super-death penalty for everyone is a dumbfuck POV 3/5 09)- "The Battle"- the ferrengi are a smidge better 1/5 10)- "Hide and Q"- how could any man refuse godhood? 3/5 11)- "Haven"- ethical quandaries aplenty 5/5 12)- "The Big Goodbye"- cultural relativism and a hologram begins to go self aware but not really the main thrust 3/5 13)- "Datalore" lore is just a straight up prick but there is some stuff, mostly implicit 2/5 14)- "Angel One"- sexist negative 5/5 15)-" 11001001"- null result 16)- "Too Short a Season" p. complex 4/5 17)- "When the Bough Breaks" 0/5 18)- "Home Soil"- they do not just blow it up at the end 1/5 19)- "Coming of Age"- not that kind of story null result 20)- "Heart of Glory"- other cultures have different ways 3/5 21)- "The Arsenal of Freedom"- null result 22)- "Symbiosis"-"The episode received mixed reviews with criticism directed at the subject matter and the unsubtle nature of the presentation" 3/5 23)- "Skin of Evil" - there is some stuff in there with data 2/5 24)- "We'll Always Have Paris" character episode null result 25)- "Conspiracy"- mystery episode null result AVERAGE MORAL COMPLEXITY OF ELIGIBLE EPISODES: 1.6666666666' The numbers do not lie.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:28
|
|
|
And thus you have spent more time thinking about TNG S1 than anyone should have.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:42
|
|
|
tng season 1 is extremely less canon than TAS < >
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:43
|
|
|
do a good TNG season I'm curious what the numbers say about season 3 or 4
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:44
|
|
|
counterpoint: allamarine? count to four? numbers don't lie
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:44
|
|
|
Pick posted:tng season 1 is extremely less canon than TAS < TOS S1. The Devil In The Dark: Is shag carpet evil? 9,000/5
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:46
|
|
|
Pick posted:tng season 1 is extremely less canon than TAS < Enterprise seasons 3 and 4 are probably better than TNG 1.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:50
|
|
|
I'd watch a random TNG S1 episode over a random TNG S7 episode any day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 06:59
|
|
|
TNG S1 is garbage, but it’s interesting weird garbage. It’s a bunch of TOS plots stapled to a pile of Gene memos that talk about Ferengi dicks and Crusher’s “striptease queen” walk. The Battle, Hide & Q, Heart of Glory, Arsenal of Freedom, and The Neutral Zone are almost decent episodes. Conspiracy is the only one I usually recommend without caveat. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Apr 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 07:05
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:TNG S1 is garbage, but it’s interesting weird garbage. It’s a bunch of TOS plots stapled to a pile of Gene memos that talk about Ferengi dicks and Crusher’s “striptease queen” walk. the one where they resolve the issue by loving killing everyone with phasers?????
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 07:19
|
|
|
I'm not sure on this, but wasn't S1 intended to be based on / designed as morality plays? They were designed to have the messages/morals/meanings that Mission Log loves to talk about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 07:20
|
|
|
Not everything has to be a morality play when you can blow up an old dude from the sternum up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 07:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 23:37 |
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:the one where they resolve the issue by loving killing everyone with phasers????? Hell yeah, it looks loving cool as poo poo and there’s literally nothing else like it in all of TNG
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2019 07:29
|
|