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lol but seriously, this post has rendered obsolete the post I was going to make.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:39
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I’m willing to admit that I’ll probably catch up on the Orville at some point but meanwhile it’s just the most unwelcome suggestion. Hell, I probably hate the “Orville” as a ship design more than as a show.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:49
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Peacoffee posted:I’m willing to admit that I’ll probably catch up on the Orville at some point but meanwhile it’s just the most unwelcome suggestion. Funny how Galaxy Quest's Protector ship looks way better for the same kind of parallel-but-plz-dont-sue aesthetic. I think Orville would be tons better if McFarlane was the CO instead of captain, and that his ex wife was captain. Then again, Discovery would have been tons better if they had just started 1000 years in the future to and jesus gently caress ugh now they are ugh why didn't they just do it before UGH gently caress
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Apr 25, 2019 07:59
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I'd watch a random TNG S1 episode over a random TNG S7 episode any day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHOTkSfVb4o
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Apr 25, 2019 08:03
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jeeves posted:Funny how Galaxy Quest's Protector ship looks way better for the same kind of parallel-but-plz-dont-sue aesthetic. moving the ship into the future won't solve the show's problems no matter how loudly nerds scream about canon
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Apr 25, 2019 08:05
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So I haven't watched The Orville at all for lack of good local options to do it. I'm not against the idea, though I don't like Seth MacFarlane, but I'd give it a shot if I could. Does the show have an identity of it own that truly distinguishes it, or is it unashamedly TNG With The Serial Numbers Filed Off? I ask because pretty much every other modern sci-fi show that has run concurrently to Trek (specifically stuff that ran during the "high point" for Trek in the late 90s when there were 2 concurrent Star Trek series to compete against, stuff like Stargate SG-1, Farscape, Babylon 5, etc.) has a one-sentence elevator pitch that is distinctly different from Star Trek. "Ancient aliens left behind a wormhole gate on Earth, and now we're gonna explore it", "a human astronaut is sent to a weird place in space/time and is totally out of his element and has to cope with this new universe", "unimaginably old precursor aliens are fighting a proxy war with each other and its up to us lesser races to learn how to get over our imperialism and unite against them". Since I don't know anything about The Orville, what is its one-sentence elevator pitch that isn't, "it's like a very dedicated fan started up TNG again, only the sets and uniforms and different"?
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Apr 25, 2019 08:19
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I had zero interest in The Orville until very recently, with some star trek fans saying it was way better than it looked to an outside observer. Like me, who thought it was not just total trash, but regressive stupid trash at that. And man, that pheromones episode, geez. That said, I watched the entire series (thus far) in the last week or so, and having done so, I'd say it's...a good show, good sci-fi, good in a trek-ish way, but also growing into its own identity as a show unto itself. Don't get me wrong, it's as close to (clearly intentionally) being bootleg star trek as anything that's tried has ever managed to get, but it's also started to kind of grow in (good) areas Trek simply never managed to, as well. It's good. Pick sometimes has bad opinions, and I think this is one of them, as much as I like her good opinions. McFarlane has improved, even if he's still by far the most annoying character on the show at times, it isn't at all times, and frankly, it's far less so than, I'll be honest, Michael is on Discovery. Two episodes really isn't enough to judge the show very well, in my experience, because they really are taking individual episodes to greatly characterize the main cast, and without getting those, half of them will continue to come off as annoying idiots. It's worth watching, and it's only like 24 episodes so far, so it's not like it's any more of an investment than asking someone to watch a full season of (pre-2000s) Trek.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:29
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Drone posted:Since I don't know anything about The Orville, what is its one-sentence elevator pitch that isn't, "it's like a very dedicated fan started up TNG again, only the sets and uniforms and different"? The people at your job, but in space.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:32
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mllaneza posted:The people at your job, but in space. also, like TNG but if Enterprise crew is the A team, the Orville's crew is the C team.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:45
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Spacebump posted:also, like TNG but if Enterprise crew is the A team, the Orville's crew is the C team. I feel like that's started to change in season 2, though.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:54
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Pakled posted:I feel like that's started to change in season 2, though. You're right that they don't emphasize it like s1 much. The only times I can really think of it was when they asked the Orville to meet with the Krill for peace talks and Ed was like "you have better people to do this" and the dude that replaced Alara for an episode before Talla showed up. They kind of went from borderline incompetent to just not at the top of Union hierarchy. I just kind of internalize it as they aren't the Union's flagship/sometimes have problems that wouldn't happen on the flagship, but are still competent enough to deserve their prestigious jobs. Also, I will always love your avatar.
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Apr 25, 2019 09:14
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Rewatching DS9 with the girlfriend. The episode with the Nazi filing clerk is a bit messy. I enjoy the twist, and the performances are good (Kira does get a bit melodramatic at the end, but otherwise solid). However, as a holocaust analogy it is worryingly liberal, basically taking the stance that just following orders is a valid excuse and feeling remorse for war crimes absolves you of any involvement. The dude is still a Nazi; Kira should know better. I do like the throw away line the Nazi has about wanting to martyr himself because he is still a nationalist and believes Cardassia can only survive if it acknowledges and atones for its atrocities. The core of the twist/emotional impact/episode is still that the Nazi is remorseful, and putting those lines in their does blunts the impact/message just a little, but it serves to remind us that the dude is still a Nazi/Cardassian/Alien and adds at least the impression of complexity to a pretty transparent analogy. thotsky fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 09:17
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thotsky posted:I do like the throw away line the Nazi has about wanting to martyr himself because he is still a nationalist and believes Cardassia can only survive if it acknowledges and atones for its atrocities. I never interpreted Marritza as being a nationalist, just a patriot. And I'm pretty sure the dude was the Radar O'Reilly of Cardassia. We're not supposed to feel sympathy for him because he did atrocities and regrets it; we're supposed to feel sympathy for him because he explicitly did not commit atrocities and instead felt forced to bear the deep-seated brunt of national guilt that the other Nazi Cardassians (the ones who did the war crimes) didn't feel.
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Apr 25, 2019 09:24
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Bear in mind also that he specifically wants to assume the identity of a war criminal because Cardassia totally got away with their war crimes and denies doing them. So he is actively trying to do good by bringing nazi war crimes to light.
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Apr 25, 2019 11:07
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Maritza hates himself for not doing anything against the Occupation and becomes Darheel's doppelganger to receive the vitriol and hatred he feels he deserves.
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Apr 25, 2019 11:21
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I am not saying he is a necessarily an up against the wall now kind of Nazi, but he is most definitely still a prison sentence type of Nazi. He admits to being aware of the atrocities and doing nothing about them. His latter actions should be viewed as too little too late, and his choice of going about it, reinventing himself as a person of power in order to protect the honor of his homeland, is questionable. Of course, even if you agree with the writers that to stand by while your fellow soldiers commit war crimes is okay (Picard would not approve), and you don't think the lines about his efficient filing system might be a reference to possible complicity (IBM in the holocaust etc), we still only have his word that he did not participate in any war crimes. He's been placed at the scene of the crime, he acknowledges that the crimes happened and that he were aware of them, but because he professes regret many years later he gets sent on his way, no questions asked? Edit: As for the difference between nationalism and patriotism... I don't think you can have one without the other, and neither are necessarily bad... In this episode I think/hope the perspective is included mostly to show how culturally integral nationalism is to Cardassians, that even a supposed critic of the regime thinks in those terms. It's like how they give depth to the ferengi not by making them about more than profit, but by showing how much of their society and thinking is informed by that perspective. The alternative is that it is a really cheap (and ironic) American-centric way of telling the audience that this is a good guy by having him saying something "patriotic". thotsky fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 11:32
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How are we still having the "I'm not so sure about The Orville, I'm no fan of Seth McFarlane, but on the other hand..." conversation when the show is already on season 2? Just watch an episode and figure out if you like it, gosh. For reference, I have not watched it yet RE: Duet -- I think the point of the episode is that people who stood by and did nothing about Nazis should feel remorse, but that perhaps when they do, forgiveness becomes possible. Which is extremely different from someone using "just following orders" as an excuse. Sir Lemming fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 12:43
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It’s about more than just Marritza himself. It’s about how to restore societies that have been morally ruined by totalitarian atrocities. Marritza is not a great or even good person and the episode isn’t saying that he is. The point is that his willingness to take on the guilt and suffer for it is the only way that Cardassian society as a whole can move forward. Otherwise they’re doomed to be morally dominated by denialists who argue that the Bajoracaust didn’t happen, and if it did it wasn’t that bad, and if it was they deserved it anyway — because that’s the only other way Cardassians can respect themselves.
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Apr 25, 2019 13:12
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:the one where they resolve the issue by loving killing everyone with phasers????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKCtqoDPUBo&t=18s
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Apr 25, 2019 13:31
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Interesting Duet opinions. Something about that episode didn't quite work for me either, despite the strong performances. It could be that it lets the guy off the hook too much for being a pen pusher. But more broadly I think DS9's thinking about the Bajorans occupation is often muddled, like they can't decide how far to take the WW2 Germany comparison. They often push the nazi comparison when it isn't really appropriate, the Cardassians rarely do anything on the same level of cruelty or evil as nazis. Their crimes seem more on the level of the Klingon empire, more standard imperialism, which TNG era Trek seems very willing to overlook in the Klingons but not the Cardassians. Also 'patriotism' being good and 'nationalism' being bad seems to be a pretty typical American liberal take, the words are pretty much interchangeable to me. Sir Lemming posted:How are we still having the "I'm not so sure about The Orville, I'm no fan of Seth McFarlane, but on the other hand..." conversation when the show is already on season 2? Just watch an episode and figure out if you like it, gosh. As a McFarlane disliker the continuing constant Orville evangelism ITT is certainly making me less likely to seek out an episode. I'm fed up with hearing about it. Did I hallucinate it, or did someone say the Picard show will be about these guys, the most unfairly neglected TNG villains?
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Apr 25, 2019 14:12
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MacFarlane's a loving mensch, Orville completely aside. Amazing singer (his new album rules), constantly elevating and praising the people who work for him, every actor who has worked with him has nothing but kind words, got a second season of Cosmos made with the third coming soon, completely sincere nerd who has nothing but positivity for science fiction and musicals, environmental activist, promotes and trusts women to run his shows in both production and writing, best friends with Ann Druyan. Love the guy.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:28
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marktheando posted:Also 'patriotism' being good and 'nationalism' being bad seems to be a pretty typical American liberal take, the words are pretty much interchangeable to me. Fascist parties tend to use "nationalist" in their names, hence the association. "Patriot" was a popular word among the revolutionaries of the Revolutionary War, and so it has a positive connotation. In modern use, the main differentiation is that patriots prefer their country over others but agree that the government could use some work and would say other countries are full of fine people. Nationalists take the harder line and are more likely to support anti-immigration laws, racist laws, expansionism, and so on.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:30
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Patriot is a pretty loaded term in America I would say. unless you’re talking about the revolution, most people would probably either think of Brady, the patriot act, or right wing antigovernment groups.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:36
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And I’d say to clarify, as someone who supports Scottish independence, that nationalism in the context of independence or anti-imperialist movements is a different thing from nationalism of the dominant group making GBS threads on minorities. The Bajoran resistance was a nationalist group.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:42
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The Cardassians had all sorts of death camps, I don’t think the Nazi comparison is inappropriate
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Apr 25, 2019 14:42
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skasion posted:Patriot is a pretty loaded term in America I would say. unless you’re talking about the revolution, most people would probably either think of Brady, the patriot act, or right wing antigovernment groups. Most people aren't so complicated and think Fourth of July fireworks, fighter jets flying over a football stadium, and chanting USA at the Olympics.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:46
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Duet's just weird because it relies on bajorans being such stupid, reactionary morons that they, at no point, would look up whether gul darheel was dead already Can't be that big of a deal if they didn't even notice the first time! 
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Apr 25, 2019 14:51
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More nuanced than "if your star sign is wrong we kill u!!" planet.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:52
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Pick posted:Duet's just weird because it relies on bajorans being such stupid, reactionary morons Sounds like a safe bet tbqh
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Apr 25, 2019 14:52
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I've been rewatching DS9 and I'm in the last season. I just watched the alt universe episode where the Ferengi go over. It sort of dawned on me how it's kind funny/silly how the alt universe needed to have things shift and happen to accommodate the newer/active cast. Like unexplained alt universe non-hologram Vic Fontane and alt Jadzea dying off screen. Also, was there a behind the scenes thing with Jadzea's(sp?) actor? It took me way to many episodes to consider that they host change to Ezri probably happened due to contracts or something.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:53
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marktheando posted:Interesting Duet opinions. Something about that episode didn't quite work for me either, despite the strong performances. It could be that it lets the guy off the hook too much for being a pen pusher. But more broadly I think DS9's thinking about the Bajorans occupation is often muddled, like they can't decide how far to take the WW2 Germany comparison. They often push the nazi comparison when it isn't really appropriate, the Cardassians rarely do anything on the same level of cruelty or evil as nazis. Their crimes seem more on the level of the Klingon empire, more standard imperialism, which TNG era Trek seems very willing to overlook in the Klingons but not the Cardassians. For some reason the Klingons tend to get excused and laureled, which is weird because they suck (they're vicious murder assholes, for the most part, aside from Martok who is cool & good). A think a lot of this is because Worf loves 'em, but wow they're assholes though?
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Apr 25, 2019 14:57
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Farrell wanted to join some sitcom and switch to an occasional guest role on DS9, but Berman was a creep about it (and a creep towards her in general) and insisted she get killed off. The writers wanted to put her in the flashback bits in What You Leave Behind but they couldn’t afford it (or possibly “couldn’t afford it”) and it didn’t happen.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:57
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Oxyclean posted:I've been rewatching DS9 and I'm in the last season. I just watched the alt universe episode where the Ferengi go over. It sort of dawned on me how it's kind funny/silly how the alt universe needed to have things shift and happen to accommodate the newer/active cast. Like unexplained alt universe non-hologram Vic Fontane and alt Jadzea dying off screen. Bingo. Terry Ferrel wanted a reduced role for season 7 so she could pursue other projects, and Rick Berman just straight up fired her. e:fb
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Apr 25, 2019 14:58
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In a more modern version of DS9, they might have used the mirror universe as a tongue-in-cheek way to show what's coming up next. Instead of having the mirror universe react to cast changes after the fact, you might see an actor appear there, and not show up as a titled character in the show for another half-season. That'd be awesome, and be a neat inversion to the typical mirror stuff.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:02
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The Cardassians are a mix of a lot of things; Nazi Germany is a big influence but also Imperial Japan (comfort women and all), the Roman Empire, various colonial empires throughout history, even Communist China. (Bajor being Tibet in this analogy, and history seems to be repeating itself with the Uighurs) Kinda the point is that it isn't like the Nazis, at least some of which had to answer for their crimes; Cardassia never had its Nuremberg, and a traumatised bureaucrat who knows he's complicit in atrocities but lives in a society where even acknowledging them is taboo, let alone considering them a bad thing, can't even begin to come to terms with it while people he knows did horrible things are allowed to live to a ripe old age and die peacefully in their sleep treated as heroes. Having a conscience on Cardassia will drive a man insane. What he does also makes a lot of sense when we see what passes for the Cardassian justice system; that torture, trials and executions are all part of the show and broadcast to all of Cardassia to send a message about how justice is done. His whole act is presumably meant to provoke what he thinks will be the same reaction on Bajor; a public trial and broadcast of his crimes that Cardassia can't ignore, and he's thrown right off by both the presumption of innocence in the Federation justice system and that a Bajoran resistance fighter is willing to take pity on him and tell him to go home. Between that and the crazy-rear end episode where Kira is basically gaslit into thinking she's actually a Cardassian, there's a running theme in Cardassian society how not just outright 'there are four lights' brainwashing but constant overt and subtle mental conditioning and oppression is the theme of the entire day, that they're made to think along strict mental paths and narratives which are designed to make it impossible to empathise with or understand outsiders and people who don't belong. It's the typical authoritarian, fascist society that breaks down its own people with propaganda and contradictions that inevitably end up destroying it because they can't deal with reality.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:06
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The best mirror gag DS9 could have ever pulled was the prime folk assuming everyone there is the opposite, only to trust Mirror Winn and have her be just as lovely but far more charming.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:06
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It is genuinely loving disappointing that the knowledge of history is so glaringly inadequate that the average person here doesn't seem to understand the Cardassian Union is drawn heavily from another Union that was culturally significant to Americans at the time and might even have been viewed as a rival in world events.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:07
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*vodka-swilling blustery equivocators who believe their resource-poor State comes first, and who readily send their own people to prison camps or pointless execution* first thought: nazis!
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Apr 25, 2019 15:10
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Nationalism is basically a religious devotion to one's country. Patriotism is a love of one's country, which means sometimes having to correct it. That can sound the same, but I think the difference is nationalists believe the "nation" itself is some grand infallible concept that must be preserved, and the only problem is that certain people are ruining it.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:10
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Fascist parties tend to use "nationalist" in their names, hence the association. "Patriot" was a popular word among the revolutionaries of the Revolutionary War, and so it has a positive connotation. In modern use, the main differentiation is that patriots prefer their country over others but agree that the government could use some work and would say other countries are full of fine people. Nationalists take the harder line and are more likely to support anti-immigration laws, racist laws, expansionism, and so on. Yea, so it's specifically an American thing and to anyone else the words are the same and both bad. Pick posted:It is genuinely loving disappointing that the knowledge of history is so glaringly inadequate that the average person here doesn't seem to understand the Cardassian Union is drawn heavily from another Union that was culturally significant to Americans at the time and might even have been viewed as a rival in world events. I...are you trying to say the Cardassians are like the Soviets because what?
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Apr 25, 2019 15:11
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