|
I've been thinking of other fictional fascist groups to paint little Germans as. Like the pseudo-German government from Full Metal Alchemist. Blue looks good and there are no real Ishvalans to offend, plus they look well enough alike. Or maybe satirize Skyrims favorite racially motivated paramilitary group the Stormcloaks and say they're at it again, trying to conquer Tamriel in the 6th era or something with tanks that look suspiciously like StuGs. Glue axes to their hips for extra detail. Edit : Just remembered historical players aren't usually big on custom paint schemes. Is there a chance of being turned away for not painting your little mans realistically? Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Apr 30, 2019 |
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:05 |
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG. I have told him not to post here. I have already requested a ban, and will continue to do so every time he posts. I don't have the power to do anything other than a sixer without admin approval.  PinheadSlim posted:I've been thinking of other fictional fascist groups to paint little Germans as. I'm a huge fan of the "paint germans like Ultramarines" but that's because we have someone in our FLGS who paints their Stormcast as Ultramarines.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:21
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG. I have told him not to post here. I have already requested a ban, and will continue to do so every time he posts. I don't have the power to do anything other than a sixer without admin approval. Well done Beer, thanks. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:25
|
|
|
PinheadSlim posted:I've been thinking of other fictional fascist groups to paint little Germans as. Does it have to be fictional? If not then do the colours like british redcoats and watch people tie themselves in knots trying to figure out what the gently caress you mean. If yes then starship troopers or if you can somehow manage robocops then robocops.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:26
|
|
|
Didn't the Gimli actor get called out for being a racist rear end in a top hat recently? Makes it somewhat appropriate for this thread. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG. I have told him not to post here. I have already requested a ban, and will continue to do so every time he posts. I don't have the power to do anything other than a sixer without admin approval. You're doing good work, some folk here are being far too hard on you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:27
|
|
|
Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Does it have to be fictional? While I was pleasantly surprised to find movie-version Starship Troopers for a reasonable price, I was legitimately very shocked to find zero robocop miniatures available anywhere online. http://www.rebelminis.com/28eafoin.html Goofy sculpt but cheap enough to make a whole Imperial Guard army out of them if one was so inclined.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:33
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG. I have told him not to post here. I have already requested a ban, and will continue to do so every time he posts. I don't have the power to do anything other than a sixer without admin approval. Fantastic news, 3 cheers for Beer 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:34
|
|
|
If I were skilled enough and played historicals I've often thought about a doing both a Nazi and Soviet army in BRUTE!'s style With Nazis being monochromatic and Soviets splashing in some red
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:35
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I'll also point out that there are examples of art going in the other direction - that is, art that deliberately makes Soviets look bad. Case in point, Moscow 1941, made a few years after Up Front: I'd actually be super interested to hear your criticism of the way Germans and the SS are portrayed (especially compared to Russians) in Advanced Squad Leader. I've been on an ASL kick the last week, but there's something that just inherently arouses suspicion about the 6-5-8 Elite SS counters (IIRC) in a game where the average squad is a 4-4-7 First Line without unit insignia lovingly painted in the upper right corner.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:41
|
|
/pic620481.jpg)
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Please, just put him on ignore and report his posts. I don't believe in ignoring that kind of problem and I don't know how to leave well enough alone. But it is good advice. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:45
|
|
|
PinheadSlim posted:I've been thinking of other fictional fascist groups to paint little Germans as. How about painting them like German tanks were painted in the comic books of the 60's-80's?    Blue, with red outlined crosses. Hell, now I want to paint a few tanks like this myself. PinheadSlim posted:Edit : Just remembered historical players aren't usually big on custom paint schemes. Is there a chance of being turned away for not painting your little mans realistically? Personally I'd be fine with it. As it is, both Flames of War (15mm scale) and Bolt Action (28mm scale) make "Hollywood Tiger" tank models. They're made to look like the tanks that were converted to look like German Tiger tanks:   Both models - different scales, different companies - are made to look like the "Tigers" from the movie Kelly's Heroes: 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 14:46
|
|
|
Cessna posted:
I love it, although not many people would probably get that comic book one. Even less would get this one though, Zombie Hitler and his fleet of orange Panzers from DBZ Fusion 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:06
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:I'd actually be super interested to hear your criticism of the way Germans and the SS are portrayed (especially compared to Russians) in Advanced Squad Leader. I've been on an ASL kick the last week, but there's something that just inherently arouses suspicion about the 6-5-8 Elite SS counters (IIRC) in a game where the average squad is a 4-4-7 First Line without unit insignia lovingly painted in the upper right corner. It's bullshit. As least they no longer use the Cross of Iron black/white SS counters. I generally like basic Squad Leader, but really dislike ASL. Basic Squad Leader made a LOT of abstractions and compromises to present a sort of big-picture "feels right" take on WWII infantry combat. Nothing was accurate, but that was okay - it was a good game, if not a simulation, and it knew its limitations. Then they added expansion after expansion (CoI, CoD, GI), piling up rules and add-ons until it became an unplayable mess. And then they tried to compile all of this into ASL and added even more rules in their quest for "accuracy," but this was all built on the foundation of odd abstractions that made the first game work. The result is an overly complicated game that is more about remembering rules than strategies that does an utterly terrible job of simulating WWII combat. The basic game was first produced in the 70's and is very much a product of the historiography of its time. Germans have more support weapons, their guns are more likely to hit and do more damage than comparable Soviet guns, their infantry formations have more/better leaders, you name it. The Soviets of 1944 (in reality a VERY tight army) are the same shambling hordes of 1941 - and the Germans of 1945 (in reality a wreck) are just as good as the Germans of 1942. It falls for all of the stereotypes that were prevalent in the time it was first written. In fairness in the 1970s we didn't really know much about the Soviet army. All we had to go on was accounts from the German perspective (which are staggeringly self-serving in retrospect) and Soviet propaganda which was obviously over-inflating the Soviet army. The games of the day present things as seen through that lens. These days things are different. Historians had access to the Soviet archives in the 90's and they discovered a VERY different Red Army. Yes, they had been hurt badly in 1941, but when they rebuilt their army it became vastly better. By 1944 it was a lean, mean, well supported force that was using tactics and strategies that made utter fools out of the Germans. But somehow the "gamers view" of Squad Leader/ASL never changed. Just as the rules became a bloated mass piled on an abstract foundation, somehow that "first take" of "German Elites, Soviet Hordes" still persists. I called out Flames of War earlier in the thread, but I do have to give them some credit for showing how the German army of 1941 (qualitatively good) declined rapidly and by 1945 was a disaster, while the Soviet army of 1941 (qualitatively poor) became much better by 1944. It took them too long to give the Soviets "Veterans," but they did show other improvements like improved support.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:07
|
|
|
PinheadSlim posted:Even less would get this one though, Zombie Hitler and his fleet of orange Panzers from DBZ Fusion The "X" on the hat presents another option, paint their insignia like Charlie Chaplain's "Double Cross" from The Great Dictator: 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:08
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:For lack of a better place I'm curious people's takes. Is it appropriate to play Germans in WW2 minis games, like ever? I think if you have personal reasons not to do it, or you don't feel comfortable playing any force (historical or fantasy) then don't do it. There are ways to play Germans, or Confederates, or Japanese or whatever and not go out of your way to offend people, though. As a historical gaming goon I don't really have any interest in playing against Ultramarines or GI Joe Germans tbh, but it's possible to just throw down some German dudes who are painted accurately and a tank and not be bandying about swastikas and white power pamphlets. I've done a ton of historical gaming and been to conventions and stuff - there are actually a lot more young people around (who won't tolerate the bullshit) than you'd expect. We've had a good group of Too Fat Lardies fans at the HMGS cons and I feel like most of the dudes are more educated and less about the garbage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:11
|
|
|
I'll also throw this out here. I live in Colorado, USA. Anyone interested in non-fascist wargaming can PM me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:13
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:For lack of a better place I'm curious people's takes. Is it appropriate to play Germans in WW2 minis games, like ever? It's a personal choice, but to be honest I'd think there was something weird about a person who thought it was never appropriate for someone else to play Germans. There's a whole world difference between painting/playing with/being interested in WW2 German military and humming the Horst-Wessel-Lied while you have a sly wank in the back of the hobby shop. I've been to watch the last running Tiger tank on display. I watch videos about German guns. I think the Wehrmacht uniforms were very stylish, and I own a model SDKfZ 151/1D. That said, I think German tanks are an amazing embodiment of the failures of the concept of racial supremacy (and Soviet ones look cooler). I watch videos about all manner of guns because I like the stories behind development. I think the British 'Tommy' look is more pleasing than the German fancypants. And I simply think saying "panzerkampfwagen sonderkraftfahrzeug 151/1d" instead of "halftrack" in time sensitive circumstances is very very funny. People, even with the best intentions, and especially in small communities are very susceptible to witch hunting, as we've recently seen. While this thread serves a noble purpose it behoves all of us to be aware of that tendency and to be self-critical before we start squinting at people who don't make a song and dance of decrying the Nazis every time they play with their dollies. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Apr 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:28
|
|
|
One of the running themes in regards to "should I be worried about the people who play Germans in WW2 games" seems to be "no, because if they're a garbage bag, they will tell you."
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:39
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:For lack of a better place I'm curious people's takes. Is it appropriate to play Germans in WW2 minis games, like ever? I'm kind of in your boat, where I am also an American Jew with literally zero interest in WW2 historicals because it feels too personal and uncomfortable, but I'd say that's...y'know, that's on us. And we don't have to play them. But as long as the guy playing the Axis side isn't, in fact, a fash or an rear end in a top hat about it, then hey, some folks think WW2 is cool history and more power to 'em.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:41
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That said, I think German tanks are an amazing embodiment of the failures of the concept of racial supremacy (and Soviet ones look cooler). Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I think the British 'Tommy' look is more pleasing than the German fancypants. I've studied German and Soviet uniforms and equipment via reenacting (to the point that I've been called in to be a guest lecturer at a nearby University) and I'm the first to tell anyone that a close look at German uniforms shows what an absolute failure their war machine was. I've posted about this a bit in the Ask/Tell Milhist thread and will be happy to explain more if anyone is interested.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 15:52
|
|
|
On the topic of historicals and fascist dogwhistles, I know that the Swedish Blood and Soil types lionize Charles XII, but does that carry over to the wargaming sphere like ACW stuff does in the US? I do some historicals for Great Northern War, but I’ve never really seen it, which I might be able to chalk up to physical distance from Sweden and teaching people who weren’t aware of that entire period in history about Poltava. When I lived there, I didn’t really do much outside of Malifaux.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:01
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I'll also throw this out here. Oh poo poo in moving there next year, I'll try to remember!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:01
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:If I were skilled enough and played historicals I've often thought about a doing both a Nazi and Soviet army in BRUTE!'s style
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I've studied German and Soviet uniforms and equipment via reenacting (to the point that I've been called in to be a guest lecturer at a nearby University) and I'm the first to tell anyone that a close look at German uniforms shows what an absolute failure their war machine was. I've posted about this a bit in the Ask/Tell Milhist thread and will be happy to explain more if anyone is interested. I’d love to read more about this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Zark the Damned posted:Didn't the Gimli actor get called out for being a racist rear end in a top hat recently? Makes it somewhat appropriate for this thread. He was on a political panel show, was arguing that Trump shouldn't be protested against at his upcoming visit in June(?) - then flailed his arms and yelled at the woman next to him when she didn't agree. Dude's six foot tall, wide and could probably give Brian Blessed a run for money in a shouting match, so it was exceedingly bad form to say the least. I think the whole "don't protest against him" argument was "maybe we could butter him up to not be such a gigantic rear end in a top hat, change his mind about climate change, etc", which is an incredibly stupid idea because he's already been buttered up to have a stupid opinion about climate change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:09
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I generally like basic Squad Leader, but really dislike ASL. Basic Squad Leader made a LOT of abstractions and compromises to present a sort of big-picture "feels right" take on WWII infantry combat. Nothing was accurate, but that was okay - it was a good game, if not a simulation, and it knew its limitations. I asked for your criticism of the portrayal of the Germans, not your wrongful, heretical, obscene, etc. etc. thoughts about the game.  Cessna posted:The Soviets of 1944 (in reality a VERY tight army) are the same shambling hordes of 1941 - and the Germans of 1945 (in reality a wreck) are just as good as the Germans of 1942. It falls for all of the stereotypes that were prevalent in the time it was first written. I will point out that the ASL-Germans of 1945 have an Experience Level Rating of 2, down from their 1942 ELR of 4, while the Soviets steadily increase over the course of the war, from 2 in 1941 all the way to 4 from July 1944 onwards. Non-SS Germans (because SS, natch, have bullshit super-Elite ELR that's always 5) in 1945 crumble under enemy fire, while Soviets can keep themselves together as well as the Western Allies or Germans at their peak. That nitpickery-because-I-have-the-rulebook-open-and-can-look-at-the-obscure-rules aside, I really value your reply. Your posts in MilHist and on RPG.net about the German and Soviet armies during WWII have always been enlightening and kind of sowed the first seeds of doubt that ASL's presentation maybe wasn't right - so I really wanted to know what your assessment of the matter was. And, sure, I can nitpick about ELR values, but I think on the whole your assessment is correct and I really appreciate that you're willing to take your time to answer me. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:13
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:(based on reading the first page) I don't know how on earth you're getting 'catholic space nazis" from the Tau but it's really a stretch. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:LordAba is no longer welcome in TG. I have told him not to post here. I have already requested a ban, and will continue to do so every time he posts. I don't have the power to do anything other than a sixer without admin approval. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
food court bailiff posted:I don't know how on earth you're getting 'catholic space nazis" from
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:19
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I've studied German and Soviet uniforms and equipment via reenacting (to the point that I've been called in to be a guest lecturer at a nearby University) and I'm the first to tell anyone that a close look at German uniforms shows what an absolute failure their war machine was. I've posted about this a bit in the Ask/Tell Milhist thread and will be happy to explain more if anyone is interested. I'd be interested in hearing more. I assume that like everything else they over-engineered it to the point of being unfit for purpose.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:21
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'd be interested in hearing more. I assume that like everything else they over-engineered it to the point of being unfit for purpose. I'm also very interested in this. My guess is the uniforms shoot for style over substance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:25
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I've studied German and Soviet uniforms and equipment via reenacting (to the point that I've been called in to be a guest lecturer at a nearby University) and I'm the first to tell anyone that a close look at German uniforms shows what an absolute failure their war machine was. I've posted about this a bit in the Ask/Tell Milhist thread and will be happy to explain more if anyone is interested. Yes please
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:38
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:I will point out that the ASL-Germans of 1945 have an Experience Level Rating of 2, down from their 1942 ELR of 4, while the Soviets steadily increase over the course of the war, from 2 in 1941 all the way to 4 from July 1944 onwards. Non-SS Germans (because SS, natch, have bullshit super-Elite ELR that's always 5) in 1945 crumble under enemy fire, while Soviets can keep themselves together as well as the Western Allies or Germans at their peak. The fact that the ELR of the SS doesn't drop is a perfect example of exaggerating their abilities. I remember reading - and I will admit I don't remember the exact figures or source here, but I could dig it up given time - about the infamous 1st SS Division ("Leibstandarte"). This unit was a Regiment when it invaded France in 1940. They fought in Russia, and by 1944 they were built up to a Division and sent into France for the Battle of the Bulge in roughly the same area of the Ardennes they had seen in 1940. One of the officers made a remark about how they were covering the same ground and looked into how many of the veterans of the Division had also been present there four years prior. When he looked into it he found that less than a dozen of the soldiers had been with the unit in 1940. The overwhelming majority of the soldiers who had been with the unit - and thousands and thousands and thousands of replacements - were buried in shallow graves in Russia. In fact, the vast majority of soldiers in the unit had been with the unit less than six months, with many having been assigned mere days before. How much "ELR" - Experience Level Rating - can you really give a unit like this? They've been smashed in combat over and over and over, and pretty much all of the veterans are dead. Maybe the unit has been around for a long time and seen a lot of fighting, but when 99%+ of the "veterans of 1940" are gone and most of your troops are conscripted kids with maybe a single battle worth of experience the unit doesn't deserve the top rating for experience. Maybe an on paper/shallow reading (the same unit fought in 1940!) will lead to the idea that they're "elite," but a look at reality shows that they're not. It's typical of ASL/Squad Leader's 1970's roots in 1970s historiography. "Germans are elite, Waffen SS are EVEN MORE elite." But reality doesn't line up with this viewpoint. LatwPIAT posted:Your posts in MilHist and on RPG.net about the German and Soviet armies during WWII have always been enlightening and kind of sowed the first seeds of doubt that ASL's presentation maybe wasn't right - so I really wanted to know what your assessment of the matter was. And, sure, I can nitpick about ELR values, but I think on the whole your assessment is correct and I really appreciate that you're willing to take your time to answer me. Thank you, I really appreciate that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
I would also like to read up on what's wrong with them. The early jackboots looked wildly uncomfortable, and the kit seems awkwardly placed for movement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
moths posted:I would also like to read up on what's wrong with them. The early jackboots looked wildly uncomfortable, and the kit seems awkwardly placed for movement. is it possible to have a comfortable jackboot
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:44
|
|
|
DiHK posted:
Yeah to be clear I also think this I just also think the whole situation was handled badly, thank you for banning the fash beer
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:46
|
|
|
moths posted:I would also like to read up on what's wrong with them. The early jackboots looked wildly uncomfortable, and the kit seems awkwardly placed for movement. I barely know where to begin. German uniforms were horrendously over-engineered, with exacting tailored fits and ludicrously impractical accoutrements like complex internal hook/suspenders that were rendered unworkable by later equipment but which were still produced for years. Their gear is junk too. The best summation I've heard is "a loose collection of loudly clanging metal cans," which is not what you want for infantry equipment. For comparison, a modern business suit consists of about 20-25 pieces of cloth. A feldbluse - that is, just the jacket/tunic - consists of over 80, plus more for the insignia. It's a labor-draining disaster. Mors Rattus posted:is it possible to have a comfortable jackboot Ethically, no.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:is it possible to have a comfortable jackboot no, but it often finds a comfortable place on the heads of marginalized groups
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 16:58
|
|
|
Zark the Damned posted:Didn't the Gimli actor get called out for being a racist rear end in a top hat recently? Makes it somewhat appropriate for this thread. https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/john-rhys-davies-accused-losing-oh-woman-caroline-lucas-question-time/ He's spoken about being very concerned about (brown) over-population, appears to be in favour of Donald Trump and really dislikes women disagreeing with him. Sadly, he's gone far right fuckhead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
This is super fascinating. As someone who has been messing with ASL SK1 and really liking it since like....Friday, do you have any insight on MMP as a company? From what you've posted it sounds like a lot of the inaccuracies are based on what were contemporary views of the troops involved back when it was being written and not anything like MMP goose stepping around their offices or anything but I genuinely know nothing about them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 17:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:05 |
|
|
Cessna posted:I barely know where to begin. German uniforms were horrendously over-engineered, with exacting tailored fits and ludicrously impractical accoutrements like complex internal hook/suspenders that were rendered unworkable by later equipment but which were still produced for years. Sounds about right for the master race at war.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2019 17:47
|
|