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Pick posted:yeah, yeah, I live in Portland lmao
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May 1, 2019 17:07
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Section 31 was one of the worst things to ever happen to Trek. It is a plague that will not die.
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May 1, 2019 17:13
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jeeves posted:Section 31 was one of the worst things to ever happen to Trek. Agreed. I've come around to its use on DS9 as an explicitly villainous threat for the heroes to overcome that's used sparingly. But, like the Borg, they're something that should never have been permitted to show up outside the series that introduced them.
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May 1, 2019 17:26
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jeeves posted:Section 31 was one of the worst things to ever happen to Trek. Aside from the books it's really just 1 or 2 episodes of DS9 and 1 season of Disco though, isn't it? I haven't seen VOY or ENT so I dunno if they show up there.
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May 1, 2019 17:40
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Also Into Darkness. Section 31 found Khan and made him build the Vengeance for them or something. Also I think they were in an episode of Enterprise? I think Reed secretly worked for them.
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May 1, 2019 17:47
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Veotax posted:Also Into Darkness. Section 31 found Khan and made him build the Vengeance for them or something. Yeah, Reed was in communications with "Harris" who fed him Section 31 orders.
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May 1, 2019 17:52
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Yeah, Reed had been an agent some time prior to the show and left the organization (iirc?). When the Klingons kidnapped Phlox, Reed was contacted by them again and then Reed used their help later during Terra Prime. Obviously not as good a use of the concept as DS9, but leagues above Discovery and Into Darkness.
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May 1, 2019 17:53
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Veotax posted:Also Into Darkness. Section 31 found Khan and made him build the Vengeance for them or something. Into what now?
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May 1, 2019 17:55
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Section 31 is similar to the Mirror Universe: in small doses, it can be a very effective plot device. But the more the writers keep using it as a crutch, the more diluted and ridiculous the premise becomes until you get sick of seeing it. It's exactly why I've come to not look forward to MU episodes on DS9. Crossover was a great episode, but each episode after that is not as good as its predecessor.
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May 1, 2019 17:56
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Baronjutter posted:DS9 doc was going through the list of check-boxes of "things the show did" that they were proud of, but they gave them selves a check for the gay kissin' with dax, but then took it away because it was a trill cop out and they admited they were kinda cowards on that entire angle and it was 100% clear garak was bi as hell but they didn't have the balls to tell that story. I thought that was nicely honest of them. yeah i was expecting the worst but the only issue is being married to loving cole which is entirely reasonable regardless of gender
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May 1, 2019 17:56
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It's actually very sneakily progressive that his sole issue is it's freaking Cole
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May 1, 2019 18:03
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Yeah, Reed had been an agent some time prior to the show and left the organization (iirc?). When the Klingons kidnapped Phlox, Reed was contacted by them again and then Reed used their help later during Terra Prime. It still left room for you to believe 31 was just some cult of a few guys.
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May 1, 2019 18:06
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yeah Enterprise actually followed the DS9 "canon" of S31 pretty well. It was still very ambiguous how big these guys were but it was clear they were ultra-secretive. In Discovery they're just the federation's CIA. Everyone knows about them, they're just a slightly reviled but major institution.
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May 1, 2019 18:14
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The time cops that try to murder Voyager are a separate future entity of Starfleet right? I want more from those guys cause they were dumb as poo poo and hilariously ineffective.
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May 1, 2019 18:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:Even at the end of the latest season of Disco they still don’t explain how we go from basically everyone knowing what S31 is and them even having their own ships, to them being completely underground by DS9. I felt like it was implied that Control basically assimilated all of the Section 31 ships before it was destroyed.
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May 1, 2019 18:36
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Orv posted:The time cops that try to murder Voyager are a separate future entity of Starfleet right? I want more from those guys cause they were dumb as poo poo and hilariously ineffective. Keystone Time Cops
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May 1, 2019 18:37
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Keystone Time Cops Please.
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May 1, 2019 18:41
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Orv posted:The time cops that try to murder Voyager are a separate future entity of Starfleet right? I want more from those guys cause they were dumb as poo poo and hilariously ineffective. Ineffective to the point that one of them goes crazy from trying to keep timelines consistent. Dulmr and Lucsly they were not.
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May 1, 2019 19:03
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Nullsmack posted:I felt like it was implied that Control basically assimilated all of the Section 31 ships before it was destroyed.
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May 1, 2019 19:38
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Isn't Tyler a Klangon
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May 1, 2019 19:43
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Who the gently caress is voq
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May 1, 2019 19:59
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Tighclops posted:Who the gently caress is voq To be clear, the original Ash Tyler died as a Klingon POW
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May 1, 2019 20:23
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FlamingLiberal posted:A Klingon who was mind wiped and surgically altered to be Ash Tyler, a Starfleet officer. The idea was for the Klingons to put him on Discovery as a sleeper agent and then have their agent basically wake up the Voq personality to cause problems on the ship. What they didn’t count on was having two personalities in his head started to kill him, so the now-Klingon Chancellor had to erase the dormant Voq personality to save his life she does the Klingon death yell too so you know the Voq personality is gone for good
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May 1, 2019 20:28
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Snow Cone Capone posted:she does the Klingon death yell too so you know the Voq personality is gone for good Unless the writers change their mind and bring Voq back later. Once you've crossed that line of bringing a clearly dead character back to life, the audience is more than entitled to not take any future deaths seriously unless that resurrection is the whole point of the film/show and serves as the emotional climax. See also: Search for Spock (good example), Voyager (many, many bad examples).
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May 1, 2019 21:11
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Cythereal posted:Unless the writers change their mind and bring Voq back later. Once you've crossed that line of bringing a clearly dead character back to life, the audience is more than entitled to not take any future deaths seriously unless that resurrection is the whole point of the film/show and serves as the emotional climax.
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May 1, 2019 21:28
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I thought it was pretty clear that the Federation Council knows about Section 31 and went "eh... Sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty."
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May 1, 2019 21:33
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jeeves posted:Section 31 was one of the worst things to ever happen to Trek. What puzzles me is that in such a continuity-heavy series like Trek, nobody seemed to forsee that adding in something as significant as what S31 represents wouldn't be a said plague. It not only introduces an element (Federation has Bad Guys in it too!), but it also entertains the notion of such an element into the work, be the work set before or after its written creation. Prequel? Oh, S31 is around. Sequel? Oh, that defeat of S31 didn't take. Reboot? Oh, S31 got rebooted. The only winning movie, thematically, is not to play. Gene was a weird dude, but you know what he did when someone wrote up a story about a conspiracy within the Federation to do not-so-Federationy things? He said "No, gently caress that noise, make 'em worm aliens". MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 21:35
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FlamingLiberal posted:Ehhh that ship has sailed at this point Indeed. Let's see... excluding time-loop shenanigans (which would mean we'd have to list everyone on the Discovery and Enterprise-D multiple times), and also limiting it to main cast (so no Kai Opaka and no random TOS crew who the writers forgot were dead), here's the list off the top of my head of characters who've died and returned: Scotty (killed by Nomad; revived by Nomad) Spock (died because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one; revived via Vulcan mysticism) Worf (died after experimental spine surgery; rebooted with auxiliary backup spine) Troi (temporarily died to evict that psychic parasite guy; revived by Dr. Crusher) Harry Kim (twice; first time revived by Doctor and second time replaced by a duplicate and no one even cared lol) Neelix (lol there's no Talaxian heaven; revived by plot device) Tyler (died offscreen in Klingon custody; brain copy-pasted onto Voq) Culber (neck snapped by Voq; revived through mushroom fuckery) I'm sure I'm forgetting some. And of course there's a bunch more times someone was believed dead but actually wasn't: Chekov, Data, Geordi and Ro, probably a shitload of others that are escaping me.
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May 1, 2019 22:04
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Powered Descent posted:
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May 1, 2019 22:27
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Powered Descent posted:Indeed. Let's see... excluding time-loop shenanigans (which would mean we'd have to list everyone on the Discovery and Enterprise-D multiple times), and also limiting it to main cast (so no Kai Opaka and no random TOS crew who the writers forgot were dead), here's the list off the top of my head of characters who've died and returned: This is exactly the point I was making, yes. Voq being apparently dead doesn't mean anything if the writers decide they want him back.
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May 1, 2019 23:19
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Chief O'Brien also died at some point. And Sisko got turned into a ghost, which is close enough.
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May 2, 2019 00:10
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thotsky posted:The sexual angle makes it come across as very conservative, maybe even fashy, but I like the idea that we're trading for the scraps of more technologically advanced aliens / in danger of being enslaved by them. That's pretty similar to David Brin's Uplift Universe. The parallel to colonization is interesting. david brin looooooved to write about animal fuckin' and that's no good
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May 2, 2019 00:54
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corn in the bible posted:david brin looooooved to write about animal fuckin' and that's no good I must have glossed over that part  I'd go back to check but the pages are stuck together now
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May 2, 2019 01:48
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thotsky posted:I must have glossed over that part I'm not going to ask with what.
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May 2, 2019 02:29
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Thousands of probes from Star Trek IV spam the galaxy with their pulses. Starfleet sends ships with whales aboard to halt the damage.
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May 2, 2019 02:37
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Powered Descent posted:Indeed. Let's see... excluding time-loop shenanigans (which would mean we'd have to list everyone on the Discovery and Enterprise-D multiple times), and also limiting it to main cast (so no Kai Opaka and no random TOS crew who the writers forgot were dead), here's the list off the top of my head of characters who've died and returned: Worf was twice also (second time was "thrown off second-story railing by man turning into energy being; rebooted by same man turning into energy being.")
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May 2, 2019 04:07
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If they really do go ahead with a Section 31 spinoff they should find some way to bring back SLOAN. Like I don’t care about that the timeline doesn’t make sense, or that he’s dead or whatever - bring in the SLOANs
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May 2, 2019 04:07
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Sash! posted:Chief O'Brien also died at some point. And Sisko got turned into a ghost, which is close enough.
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May 2, 2019 05:10
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 -scribblemark
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May 2, 2019 06:18
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Powered Descent posted:Indeed. Let's see... excluding time-loop shenanigans (which would mean we'd have to list everyone on the Discovery and Enterprise-D multiple times), and also limiting it to main cast (so no Kai Opaka and no random TOS crew who the writers forgot were dead), here's the list off the top of my head of characters who've died and returned: I just watched a Voyager where B'Ellana does the whole flatliners thing to temporarily die to try to rescue her mother from Klingon hell.
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May 2, 2019 06:34
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