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Knight posted:The Tutsi and the Hutu disagree. Zeroisanumber posted:I'm willing to give fuckin' a shot.
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May 2, 2019 15:06
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Zeroisanumber posted:Everybody fucks until we're all the same color. The happiest overthrow of the racist order.
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May 2, 2019 15:07
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Halloween Jack posted:So the problem here is that you're a reactionary: that is, you make no effort to understand people who disagree with you, and you entertain bizarre, paranoid fantasies about us. Have fun with that!
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May 2, 2019 15:08
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CharlestheHammer posted:like there wasn’t any real racial tensions in Haiti before the introduction of the race laws which set up the caste system that would dominate the country until well the end.
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May 2, 2019 15:11
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cargo cult posted:thinking that white rurals are largely white supremacist reactionaries isn't a bizarre paranoid fantasy in my experience, white rural people are largely alienated from politics
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May 2, 2019 15:12
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Halloween Jack posted:I look forward to your scientific paper proving that contempt for people with a darker complexion is "inherent" and the basis of social institutions. Where in my DNA strand is the Racism Gene located? It's not explicitly a skin color thing. It's an in-group vs. out-group thing and one of the easiest ways for our dumb ape brains to identify out-groups is skin tone.
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May 2, 2019 15:12
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cargo cult posted:the system wasn't exclusively pushed by economic elites. White working class people regularly indulged in white supremacist principles, just like they continue to do so to this day. I agree, people wind up being shaped by the system they live in. It leads to a chicken and egg issue where the system reinforces itself from top and bottom where the people at the top prevent different factions of the lower class from challenging the status quo by offering incentives for them to do so (the Wikipedia page on New Orleans dockworker organizing is a good example of this, the unions were doing a massive biracial push that was resisted for the stated reason of "suggesting racial equality") while a lot of working class whites are more than willing to help out without the incentives as pride makes am excellent salve for being broke as poo poo (again, the Wikipedia page on New Orleans dockworkers also provides and example of this as a likely reason for the push being successful was because the black union was able to force a measure of cooperation from the white union inspite of the white unions membership base).
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May 2, 2019 15:12
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Slavery as a widespread colonial economic practice slightly predates the development of a clear racial hierarchy. For example, Turks enslave Robinson Crusoe, and he’s not offended to be put alongside nonwhite slaves and is fine working alongside people of other races in order to escape, nor does he find the Turks to be racially inferior to him. I know it’s a novel, but it expresses racial attitudes in the imperial core circa 1690, which hadn’t yet solidified even though an international slave trade was already underway. The Middle Eastern slave trades definitely had some racial elements (also involving Sub-Saharan Africans) to it, but it was also super similar to ancient slavery at the same time. Either way it's not really useful to compare to the Atlantic Slave Trade, and any particular prejudices that would have been communicated into colonial America by the British heritage. Really not sure why you think bringing up a novel is supposed to prove racism didn't exist yet, especially from an author who lived his whole life in Britain. quote:Racial hierarchy is more of a consequence of economic arrangements rather than a cause of them: chattel slavery became racialized because it was already there and required justification as a practice Chattel slavery was always racialized lol. There's no contradiction to this versus the organized codification of it later.
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May 2, 2019 15:14
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Serf posted:in my experience, white rural people are largely alienated from politics white supremist reactionaries are like most politicsl groups dominated by middle class whites. Not saying they aren’t racist because they absolutely are but when it comes to politics seeing poor people take a leading role is rare.
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May 2, 2019 15:15
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Elephant Ambush posted:It's not explicitly a skin color thing. It's an in-group vs. out-group thing Romans did not unite with the Britons and Gauls in racial solidarity against the Persians and Carthaginians. The concept would have been preposterous.
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May 2, 2019 15:16
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Agean90 posted:I agree, people wind up being shaped by the system they live in. It leads to a chicken and egg issue where the system reinforces itself from top and bottom where the people at the top prevent different factions of the lower class from challenging the status quo by offering incentives for them to do so (the Wikipedia page on New Orleans dockworker organizing is a good example of this, the unions were doing a massive biracial push that was resisted for the stated reason of "suggesting racial equality") while a lot of working class whites are more than willing to help out without the incentives as pride makes am excellent salve for being broke as poo poo (again, the Wikipedia page on New Orleans dockworkers also provides and example of this as a likely reason for the push being successful was because the black union was able to force a measure of cooperation from the white union inspite of the white unions membership base).
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May 2, 2019 15:16
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CharlestheHammer posted:white supremist reactionaries are like most politicsl groups dominated by middle class whites. poor people generally don't have the time or money to participate in politics, and that is true of any racial group in america
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May 2, 2019 15:18
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yo whered these nazis come from
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May 2, 2019 15:19
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CharlestheHammer posted:like there wasn’t any real racial tensions in Haiti before the introduction of the race laws which set up the caste system that would dominate the country until well the end. You mean the place where they enslaved and worked to death most of the non-European natives, then because that exhausted that resource they started specifically importing a different non-European population to do the work instead? Yeah I guess it took until some race laws to make racism appear there.
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May 2, 2019 15:19
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Serf posted:poor people generally don't have the time or money to participate in politics, and that is true of any racial group in america which is why this discussion is dumb, as most people just treat rural and poor as synonymous
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May 2, 2019 15:19
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Blast of Confetti posted:yo whered these nazis come from
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May 2, 2019 15:20
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Zeroisanumber posted:I'm willing to give fuckin' a shot. The point is it is already false. And it's going to be especially false if humanity, rather than learning to live with differences, requires homogeneity to kill eachother less. Because then new differences will be the problem.
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May 2, 2019 15:20
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Grape posted:You mean the place where they enslaved and worked to death most of the non-European natives, then because that exhausted that resource they started specifically importing a different non-European population to do the work instead? I mean you seem to be conflating bad people with racism. You can do bad things to people without needing racism to justify it.
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May 2, 2019 15:22
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claiming american chattel slavery wasnt an inherently racist and white supremacist institution would result in you failing an American 7th grade civics exam, but here we are, hashing it out on the far left politics forum
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May 2, 2019 15:22
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cargo cult posted:When you say pride in that context what do you mean? its not entirely clear Social ladder poo poo basically. No matter how bad things can get for a person if they can make life poo poo for someone else it becomes tolerable. yeah life for jimbob and his lovely tin shed he calls home might suck, but if the can drive through the black town firing guns in the middle of the night with the implicit approval of the cops it makes it more tolerable, and if the people in the black town get a justified distrust of white people that makes it harder for, say a group of communists to get people organized all the better.
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May 2, 2019 15:25
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cargo cult posted:claiming american chattel slavery wasnt an inherently racist and white supremacist institution would result in you failing an American 7th grade civics exam, but here we are, hashing it out on the far left politics forum I would not try and use the American education system as a positive, especially considering it for the most is a white supremacy factory
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May 2, 2019 15:27
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CharlestheHammer posted:I would not try and use the American education system as a positive, especially considering it for the most is a white supremacy factory
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May 2, 2019 15:29
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Halloween Jack posted:Yes, and "race" is a modern, very particular, and very narrow way of doing that. Romans did make mention of racial differences in texts, though this ended up with them not seeing Gauls and Britons as racially similar to themselves. There are actually some vaguely racist noble savage descriptions of northern Europeans as big huge light haired oafs or some such. The interactions in the Old World even now don't often come down to huge levels of visual difference due to basic geography, most of the infamous genocides and ethnic cleansing events of the past 100 years are between identical looking peoples. When people started jumping on boats and really building up international empires and overseas colonies that changes.
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May 2, 2019 15:29
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cargo cult posted:claiming american chattel slavery wasnt an inherently racist and white supremacist institution would result in you failing an American 7th grade civics exam, but here we are, hashing it out on the far left politics forum i guess its a good thing that's only happening in your head
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May 2, 2019 15:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean you seem to be conflating bad people with racism. You can do bad things to people without needing racism to justify it. Bad things specifically to groups that don't look like you. I guess it was just coincidence.
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May 2, 2019 15:32
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Serf posted:i guess its a good thing that's only happening in your head
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May 2, 2019 15:36
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So... Anymore of them Trump voting farmers died yet or what?
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May 2, 2019 15:37
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cargo cult posted:so what is your take, black slaves and rural white peasants occupied the same "class"?" i think a basic level of historical awareness and reading comprehension could tell you that no, they did not. unless, like with your "irish slaves" argument, you'd like to present some evidence to the contrary
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May 2, 2019 15:37
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Grape posted:Romans did make mention of racial differences in texts, though this ended up with them not seeing Gauls and Britons as racially similar to themselves. There are actually some vaguely racist noble savage descriptions of northern Europeans as big huge light haired oafs or some such. Serf posted:i think a basic level of historical awareness and reading comprehension
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May 2, 2019 15:38
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Grape posted:Bad things specifically to groups that don't look like you. I guess it was just coincidence. I mean are you gonna make the argument that bad things didn’t happen to people who look different from you before the 18 century when racism as we know it started to coalesce?
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May 2, 2019 15:38
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Grape posted:Romans did make mention of racial differences in texts, though this ended up with them not seeing Gauls and Britons as racially similar to themselves. There are actually some vaguely racist noble savage descriptions of northern Europeans as big huge light haired oafs or some such. Romans acknowledged the existence of race, but they also didn't really give a poo poo about it. "Barbarians" were people who didn't follow their civilized life, so anyone could have been viewed as an equal as long as they adopted Roman culture and values. Emperor Septimius Severus was mixed race and spoke with an African accent but as far as I know nobody gave him poo poo about it. His son Caracalla was as well, but he's viewed as a psychopath so....
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May 2, 2019 15:40
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chitoryu12 posted:Romans acknowledged the existence of race, but they also didn't really give a poo poo about it. "Barbarians" were people who didn't follow their civilized life, so anyone could have been viewed as an equal as long as they adopted Roman culture and values. Emperor Septimius Severus was mixed race and spoke with an African accent but as far as I know nobody gave him poo poo about it. His son Caracalla was as well, but he's viewed as a psychopath so.... You could argue the Barbarian hysteria of the early fifth century was kind of like racism but I feel that’s stretching a bit and kind of takes away from modern racism which is completely different beast.
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May 2, 2019 15:42
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Serf posted:i think a basic level of historical awareness and reading comprehension could tell you that no, they did not. unless, like with your "irish slaves" argument, you'd like to present some evidence to the contrary white supremacy wasn't bolted on as ideological superstructure post-facto african capitives were designated as subhumam upon first contact, well before they even reached the new world and began being worked to death
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May 2, 2019 15:42
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Racism is an ideology but xenophobia is a condition. A spicy cocktail.
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May 2, 2019 15:43
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Avirosb posted:Racism is an ideology but xenophobia is a condition. look at this Nazi
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May 2, 2019 15:45
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cargo cult posted:so where are we in disagreement? Why were they captives if not to be enslaved, though? European contempt for Africans prior to imperial domination abroad was premised on things like them having an alien culture or a heathen religion and the wrong kind of pants. Like, cultural rather than blood difference.
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May 2, 2019 15:47
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Avirosb posted:So... almost assuredly yes. maybe even at their own hand. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/06/why-are-americas-farmers-killing-themselves-in-record-numbers they kill themselves a lot, in fact more than any other occupation and they work for themselves mostly so they might not have health insurance so they're probably dying fairly often from preventable or correctable conditions
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May 2, 2019 15:48
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“Romans” covers 2000 years of peoples so it’s hard to generalize. From my understanding of being a dumb amateur, western Romans from 400 bce to 400 ce or so cared about nationality and citizenship status but but not race as we think it today. However there was for a long time, with respect to who became a senator and who became consul and eventually emperor, a prejudice in favor of people born in Italy that eventually became a preference for people from historical Latin families. There was never a legal discrimination against anyone due to “race” afaict
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May 2, 2019 15:48
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cargo cult posted:so where are we in disagreement? i suppose we're arguing about whether or not white people are born racist, and i would argue that it is a learned behavior which is very much intended by the powers that be because a united underclass is something that terrifies them. hence why, historically, groups of whites and blacks who came together were put down with haste
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May 2, 2019 15:50
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Why were they captives if not to be enslaved, though? European contempt for Africans prior to imperial domination abroad was premised on things like them having an alien culture or a heathen religion and the wrong kind of pants. Like, cultural rather than blood difference.
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May 2, 2019 15:50
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