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euphronius posted:“Romans” covers 2000 years of peoples so it’s hard to generalize. there was never legal discrimination no. There was some dual loyalty fear. Like Stilicho the leading general of the west was always looked at weirdly for being half Vandal and his enemies at court would destroy him with that, despite being a citizen for all his life. Though he did spend a decade as effectively the emperor so it obviously wasn’t to big a hinderance.
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May 2, 2019 15:54
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Serf posted:i suppose we're arguing about whether or not white people are born racist, and i would argue that it is a learned behavior which is very much intended by the powers that be because a united underclass is something that terrifies them. hence why, historically, groups of whites and blacks who came together were put down with haste it's not a uniquely american contrivance but it seems to have become a lot more pernicious, ubiquitous and a lot more explicitly anti-black by the late 18th century. at some point white supremacy did take on a distinctly american characteristic though cargo cult has issued a correction as of 15:59 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 15:56
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CharlestheHammer posted:there was never legal discrimination no. There was some dual loyalty fear. Like Stilicho the leading general of the west was always looked at weirdly for being half Vandal and his enemies at court would destroy him with that, despite being a citizen for all his life. right it wasn’t that big a deal. he married into the imperial family for instance.
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May 2, 2019 15:58
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JoelJoel posted:Management gets direction from our corporate owners. Not the types to give out sick days from the kindness of their hearts. Your argument is basically "well, the market will take care of it" and is deeply stupid. I’m not arguing against labour laws by any means; I voted well left of Ford. I’m saying that the company could also choose to offer sick days, as many companies do, and that they should share in the blame. labour laws should be in place to protect against assholes, but that doesn’t let the assholes off the hook.
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May 2, 2019 15:58
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cargo cult posted:im saying those instances were way more likely in the new world compared to even antiquity. scientific racism was far more woven into the cultural logic of the european new world than it was for preceding globe spanning empires, like say the mongols or ottomans or whatever. this is an incomprehensible word salad. read zinn, or hell look up the actual events themselves and draw your conclusions from there, not this feverish key-slapping to justify your paranoid nihilism
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May 2, 2019 16:01
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chitoryu12 posted:Romans acknowledged the existence of race, but they also didn't really give a poo poo about it. "Barbarians" were people who didn't follow their civilized life, so anyone could have been viewed as an equal as long as they adopted Roman culture and values. Emperor Septimius Severus was mixed race and spoke with an African accent but as far as I know nobody gave him poo poo about it. His son Caracalla was as well, but he's viewed as a psychopath so....
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May 2, 2019 16:04
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Serf posted:this is an incomprehensible word salad. read zinn, or hell look up the actual events themselves and draw your conclusions from there, not this feverish key-slapping to justify your paranoid nihilism your theory of history basically precludes a comprehensive understanding of the black american experience, and based on your statements you think that it can just be subsumed into the broader class politics of the era 
cargo cult has issued a correction as of 16:08 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 16:05
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an African prince who visited Rome in 100 bce would be treated as a dignitary and honored. the same prince visiting the American south in 1830 would be enslaved and all his decedents would be too.
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May 2, 2019 16:07
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cargo cult posted:I am going to be honest I got triggered by that quote in question because Epic High Five asserted that rural white people will more readily join in (presumably left wing) revolution than urban liberals, despite the fact that urban liberals are actually the ones at the receiving end of state enforced white supremacy. I also really dislike the notion that White Supremacy in the red states is exclusively the province of upper middle class white people, who somehow manipulated working people into engaging in racist violence like lynchings. This to me sounds like fantastical revisionism. I'm pretty sure participation in pogroms and race riots isn't limited to class. From what I remember of American history some of the most strident and violent resistance to reconstruction came from white peasants who wanted to at least have a place in the caste system higher than freedmen. I should probably elaborate on this, hopefully not to my detriment as I'm about to go into a meeting and can't catch up on how much the thread blew up. When I say that, it should be clarified (and much of my other ramblings corroborate this) that when I say 'urban libs' I mean exclusively the white, affluent, cocktail party kinds. The reason I do not include left-leaning or socialist marginalized communities within the urban centers - that indeed make up the majority of Dems and the foundations of all wealth the cities enjoy - is because when I say 'urban lib' it is with the same feeling I say 'blood gargling chud'. The 'white rural' is probably unfair and I'll own it, Serf is right that rural demos are often exceptionally non-white (it's just that the non-white residents well never, ever be included in any sympathetic cultural piece about the area) and I was speaking from my own experience in southern Indiana, where it is whiter than you could loving believe. The reason I feel the breaking point will come in some unlikely place like Iowa isn't because the people are genuinely socialist waiting to break out or whatever, but rather because there exists there no Dem machine to co-opt and pump the brakes on leftist policy like you have in NY and CA. If I want socialist housing reform to address the homelessness and rent crises, I stand about as good a chance of getting it in Indiana as I do in California. I do believe that poo poo's gonna start somewhere that the Dem machine doesn't have an active suppression operation going in because while they are indeed lazy stupid cowards, they are exceptionally motivated to punch left. It's why I said the biggest part of AOC winning and the NY upheaval was the total destruction of the IDC, and indeed can you imagine a NYC that would reject paying Amazon billions to come there and drive up rents and make money hand over fist if the IDC was intact?
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May 2, 2019 16:09
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cargo cult posted:saying that anti-blackess was uniquely legally codified into the founding documents of the early American republic doesn't qualify as "paranoid nihilism". This is why class essentialism is really embarrassing. i don't recall saying you were incorrect on that, which you would know if you actually read people's posts. but before you do that, i'd recommend picking up a book first. zinn covers what i'm talking about in the first few chapters, it won't take long to get there
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May 2, 2019 16:09
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cargo cult posted:so you're an Irish people used to be slaves type of guy? lol wtf
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May 2, 2019 16:10
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Serf posted:i don't recall saying you were incorrect on that, which you would know if you actually read people's posts. but before you do that, i'd recommend picking up a book first. zinn covers what i'm talking about in the first few chapters, it won't take long to get there
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May 2, 2019 16:20
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economic populism was a huge thing in the early 20th century and socialist movements flourished in the midwest once upon a time. new deal Democrats also used to be a force. at the same time, the klan was huge in places like indiana and iowa. rural whites can be racist as gently caress and also progressive. i think the same can be true now too .
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May 2, 2019 16:21
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cargo cult posted:im not going to read
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May 2, 2019 16:23
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cargo cult posted:im not going to read your favorite class essentialist text just to jaw at you on the internet there's a reason that there's been a renewed interest on the social and legal stature of black american slaves in recently published popular american history zinn is not what i would call class essentialist, which you would know if you read occasionally
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May 2, 2019 16:23
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Eat This Glob posted:economic populism was a huge thing in the early 20th century and socialist movements flourished in the midwest once upon a time. new deal Democrats also used to be a force. at the same time, the klan was huge in places like indiana and iowa. rural whites can be racist as gently caress and also progressive. i think the same can be true now too . yes you can have progressive rural whites however they will be racist as gently caress. so. bit of a crossroads.
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May 2, 2019 16:24
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Subjunctive posted:I’m not arguing against labour laws by any means; I voted well left of Ford. I’m saying that the company could also choose to offer sick days, as many companies do, and that they should share in the blame. labour laws should be in place to protect against assholes, but that doesn’t let the assholes off the hook. What, exactly, are you arguing? That rear end in a top hat capitalists are assholes capitalists? Despite whatever derail this thread is on now, this is supposed to be a place to laugh at idiots owning themselves. My anecdote was exactly that. Your last post effectively placed blame one some insignificant middle manager with little to no actual power for workers having poo poo rights. I get that you think companies should treat workers better, but I think a more effective strategy than "c'mon mega corp, have compassion" is effective legislation and strong labour laws.
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May 2, 2019 16:25
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euphronius posted:yes you can have progressive rural whites however they will be racist as gently caress. so. bit of a crossroads. i would argue that if you're racist, you cannot be progressive in a modern context. and to think that you have to be racist if you're a rural white is insane
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May 2, 2019 16:28
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euphronius posted:yes you can have progressive rural whites however they will be racist as gently caress. so. bit of a crossroads. i..i have a black f friend 
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May 2, 2019 16:28
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Serf posted:i would argue that if you're racist, you cannot be progressive in a modern context. and to think that you have to be racist if you're a rural white is insane that’s fair but that is not the traditional definition of progressive or new deal democrat
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May 2, 2019 16:30
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Serf posted:zinn is not what i would call class essentialist, which you would know if you read occasionally cargo cult posted:im saying those instances were way more likely in the new world compared to even antiquity. scientific racism was far more woven into the cultural logic and later the legal logic of the european new world than it was for preceding globe spanning empires, like say the mongols or ottomans or whatever. American society was distinctly anti-black beginning in the 18th century until the mid 20th century. If you want me to read something besides Howard Zinn that complicates that then I definitely will try.
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May 2, 2019 16:33
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euphronius posted:that’s fair but that is not the traditional definition of progressive or new deal democrat i don't think of myself as a "progressive" but if you were to ask 10 random people i don't think any of them would have the historical context for the term that you're bringing to it like the word "awesome" used to mean something terrifying, but today it doesn't. poo poo changes like that cargo cult posted:I'll rephrase what i wrote here because it wasn't articulate i'm not arguing against that. read zinn because i'm afraid anything else would be too hard for you
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May 2, 2019 16:34
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Serf posted:read zinn because i'm afraid anything else would be too hard for you
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May 2, 2019 16:48
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cargo cult posted:how about you read settlers bitch i have read settlers. great book
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May 2, 2019 16:48
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okay so apparently what I missed was Serf being labelled, apropos of nothing, a slavery revisionist?
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May 2, 2019 16:49
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Epic High Five posted:okay so apparently what I missed was Serf being labelled, apropos of nothing, a slavery revisionist? Lot of slap fighting, some talk of fuckin', no dead Trumpers who realized their imminent doom.
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May 2, 2019 16:51
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Zeroisanumber posted:Lot of slap fighting, some talk of fuckin', no dead Trumpers who realized their imminent doom. has there been any truckin' talk at least?
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May 2, 2019 16:54
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they are still dying, alone and unloved while everyone else engages in the usual slapfights.
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May 2, 2019 16:54
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https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/st...ingawful.com%2Fquote:She wishes she had never said the things she’s said or did the things she’s done, but when I first met her, she still insisted that they were often jokes gone wrong, and that, on some level, she’d said these things because she’d been egged on by others. She seemed unable to face her full complicity in her own behavior.
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May 2, 2019 16:55
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She also has Type 1 diabetes and no health insurance so she's likely to die under Trump.
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May 2, 2019 16:57
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Zeroisanumber posted:She also has Type 1 diabetes and no health insurance so she's likely to die under Trump. That's a LOL. quote:Breitbart writers worked around the clock. Her health care situation was precarious — Breitbart offered her a capped reimbursement for health expenses but did not offer her health benefits — particularly after she was diagnosed with diabetes in October 2015. I hope she goes blind and they have to amputate her feet.
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May 2, 2019 17:12
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euphronius posted:an African prince who visited Rome in 100 bce would be treated as a dignitary and honored. Ethiopian diplomats visited Italy in the 1400s for a church council and were treated as dignitaries and honored.
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May 2, 2019 17:12
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FMguru posted:She did her level best to make sure people like her would be uninsured and uninsurable. Zoom in on the picture, they have already amputated her eyebrows.
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May 2, 2019 17:15
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Is type one the fatass American version ?
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May 2, 2019 17:16
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FMguru posted:She did her level best to make sure people like her would be uninsured and uninsurable. holy hell that's on thread title point
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May 2, 2019 17:16
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euphronius posted:Is type one the fatass American version ? It's the born with it version
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May 2, 2019 17:19
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euphronius posted:Is type one the fatass American version ?
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May 2, 2019 17:19
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euphronius posted:Is type one the fatass American version ? no. that is the regular one where your body doesn't make insulin. though you can be a fat American with type 1 obviously
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May 2, 2019 17:20
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Thank you for saving the thread. Also, fuckin LOL this is a perfect storm. She helped stoke fear against journalism, progressive policies, health care and generally just being a good person. And, almost like clockwork, the same millstone she used to crush others is coming to crush her as well. Poetic.
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May 2, 2019 17:21
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J.A.B.C. posted:Thank you for saving the thread. it's I Never Thought The Panther Would Eat My Face in it's purest distilled form
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May 2, 2019 17:32
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