|
QuarkJets posted:So it's your hypothesis that these kids were being indoctrinated into joining a new hybrid religion that combines the practices of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism? Mormonism?
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Is what what you believe this story is about? you're right. it's not religious indoctrination in schools. it's a field trip to participate in prayer services, which is ok because it's outside of the school! having kids attend prayer services, especially as a part of the school curriculum, regardless of the religion in question, is immoral. it's not the teacher's place to do this at all. i wouldn't want my kids praying under any abrahamic setting, idgaf if they're christian or jewish or muslim or whatever, that poo poo is ruinous. e: before you ask yes having them attend a blood sacrifice to kūkailimoku would be ok though Fur20 fucked around with this message at 22:10 on May 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:05
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:So it's your hypothesis that these kids were being indoctrinated into joining a new hybrid religion that combines the practices of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:05
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:So it's your hypothesis that these kids were being indoctrinated into joining a new hybrid religion that combines the practices of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism? Forcing a class to attend and participate in a prayer service will immediately other kids who have a religious or philosophical objection to that kind of thing.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:07
|
|
|
therobit posted:They are literally participating in prayer at these places per the OP. That seems iffy enough that I wonder if that's actually happening, or if the OP is equating sitting through a service with participating religiously. In my experience churches and the like are cagey about visitors just hopping in on rituals that require you to be serious on them, like taking communion and so on. quote:Again, if you don't know what it's like to ne a religious minority, you might not get it, I was raised and remain irreligious. The true difference between us is I grew up in a relatively secular area, that was also somewhat religiously diverse and is increasingly so. But then that's exactly the point of this kind of program, it's pro-secularism. The sort of people screaming at you growing up are among the first sorts to balk at such a thing. quote:but if you have some sort of faith that is not one of the mainstream religions being forced to sit through other people's prayers can be an affront. If you're insanely religious/irreligious enough that the existence of other people's religions/sects offends you. Well I don't have much sympathy for you unless their prayers are involving crap like homophobia and the like. Or they're directly targeting you or that sort of creepy Evangelical crap. But literally other people's services/rituals in the general sense? Give me a break. quote:And LOL if you think only red states have lovely protestants. I live in and grew up in Portland. Oregon is kinda infamously homogenous for a blue state though so that doesn't surprise me that much.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:08
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure school programs that take kids to various places of worship to expose them to different cultures don't let their hosts "indoctrinate" the kids. We had the exact same program at school, either going on a field trip or having someone come in to give a little presentation, and they always were tripping over them selves to just explain the 101 of the region and its history without saying they were right and the other guys were wrong. They don't plop a group of kids in a church and let the priest deliver a fire and brimstone sermon demanding the kids convert or face an eternity of fire. If what ever religious ambassador did that they'd get pulled from the program fast. Remember our field trips well to this day: Judaism: Here's a dreidel, put on these little hats, we're not support to eat this and that, this is a menorah, this is what the various art in the synagogue represents, here's some Hebrew words you can learn. Here's a bunch of cool history about the synagogue which is the oldest in the country. Taoism: They came to the class, we got to draw ying-yang symbols, then they did a cool martial arts demonstration. Buddhism: We went to a cool temple, had some tea, and got to participate in making some mandalas out of coloured sand while they explained the reason they are destroyed afterwards. Helped me come to peace with my sand-castles getting wrecked after every recess, thanks monks. Local First Nations Beliefs: We went to a place they carve totem poles, got to hear some creation stories and various stories with moral messages, it all smelled like cedar and we got to drum. Shinto: Some japanese dudes in full traditional costume did a little ceremony but their english wasn't great so they could't explain a great deal. Sikh Temple: So much delicious food, they don't like to cut their hair, cool knives, history of Sikh immigration was mostly the focus. I don't think there was any "indoctrination" going on. It was an exposure to different cultures and I think important and enriching.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:11
|
|
|
therobit posted:Forcing a class to attend and participate in a prayer service will immediately other kids who have a religious or philosophical objection to that kind of thing. If Ezekiel and Ishmael want to stand outside in the hall and pray for the rest of the class's immortal souls, they seem to be allowed to do so.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:14
|
|
|
Blind stupid religion, gambling, superstition.. these are all excellent replacements for math and science in schools. We should have prayer zones, card tables, and ritual stations instead of science labs, math class, and literature and libraries. We need to be sure there is little or no resistance to hypnosis and cult indoctrination by the time people graduate high school. 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:17
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I'm pretty sure school programs that take kids to various places of worship to expose them to different cultures don't let their hosts "indoctrinate" the kids. We had the exact same program at school, either going on a field trip or having someone come in to give a little presentation, and they always were tripping over them selves to just explain the 101 of the region and its history without saying they were right and the other guys were wrong. They don't plop a group of kids in a church and let the priest deliver a fire and brimstone sermon demanding the kids convert or face an eternity of fire. If what ever religious ambassador did that they'd get pulled from the program fast. I did something similar as part of the UU "church" I grew up in. We went to a synagogue, black baptist church, and a Catholic church (which I was already used to from sunday mornings whenever my dad's parents were babysitting us so that was lol for me). It was kinda neat.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:18
|
|
|
ClamdestineBoyster posted:Blind stupid religion, gambling, superstition.. these are all excellent replacements for math and science in schools. We should have prayer zones, card tables, and ritual stations instead of science labs, math class, and literature and libraries. We need to be sure there is little or no resistance to hypnosis and cult indoctrination by the time people graduate high school. Learning about other cultures and stuff like that, of which religion is notably included, is part of raising a successful non-lovely human being, and is a big component in Social Studies moreover. Heck even beyond cultural exposure lol at trying to learn history without knowing what the different religions and sects are. I know the insecure atheists of the internet are horrified at the thought of it, but your staunch allies (the religious fundamentalists of the world) I guess can help you fight this great evil.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:23
|
|
|
ClamdestineBoyster posted:Blind stupid religion, gambling, superstition.. these are all excellent replacements for math and science in schools. We should have prayer zones, card tables, and ritual stations instead of science labs, math class, and literature and libraries. We need to be sure there is little or no resistance to hypnosis and cult indoctrination by the time people graduate high school. Yes, and cut out the arts while we're at it! Beep boop people are robots and only math and science are key to our futures! I mean, it's not like church shootings are all over the news these days. Oh wait, no, it's that other thing where there are large and varied cultures around your city, let alone the world, and that engaging with them in a friendly manner is a good and cool thing for the betterment of all.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:34
|
|
|
Grape posted:If Ezekiel and Ishmael want to stand outside in the hall and pray for the rest of the class's immortal souls, they seem to be allowed to do so. And they will be othered for not participating. You seem to keep moving the goalposts. Forst is because you think I live in a red state, then when I don't it's because Oregon is white (I'm white and it ain't about race). You say you are religious, but are you big 3 or big 5? Or are you some other religion entirely? It makes a huge difference if it's a major worldwide religion vs something small and different. I was raised Baha'i and most people had never heard of it when I was growing up, and still today. Even well intentioned people had a tendency to make me feel like I and my coreligionists at the time were weirdos or almost as bad, "so interesting and different." And yes, a lot of religious groups would say you should not be going and participating in a different religion's prayer service. The school needs to respect the religious freedom of its students, including respecting their freedom to be irreligious if that's the case. It's not appropriate to send them to a prayer service.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:37
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Yes, and cut out the arts while we're at it! Beep boop people are robots and only math and science are key to our futures! I mean, it's not like church shootings are all over the news these days. You can’t teach art en masse. That’s why people need to get linked up with a retard masturbator when they graduate high school. Someone who can teach them how to slop paint around on the canvas and call themself a genius with no qualms about it.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:38
|
|
|
I'm not opposed tip learning about the existence of other religions in school, but it should be a chapter in thr social studies book, not a trip to a church for a prayer service.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
AITA if I back out of being maid of honor at my best friends wedding next weekend? Best man is my ex fiancé who cheated on me and I can't be around him let alone walk arm in arm with him.quote:Jump into the worst week of my life. I was with my ex fiancé for 6 years. Loved him with every fiber of my being, wedding planned for August. Refused a job offer so could move with him for his next Air Force assignment. Monday a call girl from a website called massage republic texts him in the middle of the night saying she's reaching out to old clients because she's back in the game (his phone was at my house while he was flying) I text back she must have wrong number. She says she doesn't. In a moment of brains I pretend to be him instead of the jealous girlfriend and call girl gives me all the details. I'm such a fool this had been happening under my nose for years. She found out monday.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:03
|
|
|
therobit posted:And they will be othered for not participating. Forst is because you think I live in a red state, then when I don't it's because Oregon is white (I'm white and it ain't about race). I didn't say I was religious, I said the complete opposite. So the number your looking for is 0. And again you seem to be refusing to acknowledge the case that they're visiting a bunch of completely different religions. No one is going to be the In Thing on more than one trip. On some of them probably all the students or the vast majority will not be of that religion. That is in fact the point! Reallllly not sure how Bahai would for instance be singled out by everyone going to a mosque. Unless this program is taking place in Dearborn Michigan! quote:You seem to keep moving the goalposts. But that's the thing, I'm not moving the goalposts. The conceit that exists even in the original is that the OP and a bunch of people are not sending their kids on the trip, clearly the option already exists and is being used. No one is being forced to attend or did I miss some detail? Also being irreligious isn't violated by existing next to religious stuff? Not sure how you think it works.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:34
|
|
|
Smirking_Serpent posted:I (20F) can’t seem to convince him (21M) that sex is not competitive sports. *Girlfriend catches her BF watching porn* Babe, are you- No I'm just watching e-sports!!
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:43
|
|
|
cumshitter posted:*Girlfriend catches her BF watching porn*
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:49
|
|
|
therobit posted:Forcing a class to attend and participate in a prayer service will immediately other kids who have a religious or philosophical objection to that kind of thing. That didn't happen, the post is about how a bunch of parents opted out, because no one was being forced to do anything. Again, I invite you to reread the post
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:52
|
|
|
IDK even presenting a prayer service as something people do is pretty beyond the pale, attendance mandatory or no
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:55
|
|
|
It was just a prank: chapter XXX - Tricky Twins My twin (20F) wants me to swap boyfriends with her for a date to see if they can tell the difference. I said no and she just won't let it go. quote:My boyfriend (20M) and I (20F)have been together for a year. My sister (20F) and her boyfriend (21M) have been together for 8 months. Using a prank as cover to gently caress your twin's bf, a bold power move
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:you're right. it's not religious indoctrination in schools. it's a field trip to participate in prayer services, which is ok because it's outside of the school! I can 100% guarantee that the overly bothered internet atheist is reinterpreting a field trip for kids to learn about various religions as forced prayer circles and mandatory circumcisions for the boys. Learning about religion and culture is cool and good and won't turn your kids into devout abrahamic religious zealots. Learning about archery doesn't make you an archer, learning about art doesn't make you an artist, etc
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:08
|
|
|
ad090 posted:AITA if I back out of being maid of honor at my best friends wedding next weekend? Best man is my ex fiancé who cheated on me and I can't be around him let alone walk arm in arm with him. What's the point of having your best friend as your maid of honor if she's miserable and the best man is a cheating piece of poo poo? Seems like that'd be bad luck. What a lovely friend. Bail on the wedding. Let him walk down the aisle alone and if they protest, tell them that you're sure the rates for a call girl to walk down arm in arm with him are bound to be cheaper than what he paid to gently caress around with her.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
Dienes posted:What's the point of having your best friend as your maid of honor if she's miserable and the best man is a cheating piece of poo poo? Seems like that'd be bad luck. What a lovely friend. It's kinda hosed up that they're telling her to nut up instead of telling that jackass to take a hike and promote a groomsman.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
tactlessbastard posted:It's kinda hosed up that they're telling her to nut up instead of telling that jackass to take a hike and promote a groomsman. Yeah, this isn't a situation in which both sides hosed up. There is a 100% clear 'bad guy' in this scenario and he shouldn't be supported. She should send them a card, but instead of stuffing it with money, stuff it with screen shots proving he was cheating.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:18
|
|
|
tactlessbastard posted:IDK even presenting a prayer service as something people do is pretty beyond the pale, attendance mandatory or no Is refusing to acknowledge the existence of religion actually any better than teaching kids about some of the many faiths and cultures that people may encounter in the world? If we decide that we don't like garlic then does that shape what's allowed to be taught in home ec?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:26
|
|
|
DemoneeHo posted:It was just a prank: chapter XXX - Tricky Twins Shave your head
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:26
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Is refusing to acknowledge the existence of religion actually any better than teaching kids about some of the many faiths and cultures that people may encounter in the world? Well, teaching kids nothing about sex sure makes sure they never have sex, right? :V
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:28
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Is refusing to acknowledge the existence of religion actually any better than teaching kids about some of the many faiths and cultures that people may encounter in the world? It's perfectly acceptable to coach them in knowledge of such things, especially to be wary of hyper-religious people who almost always turn out to be complete shitheads.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:33
|
|
|
Smirking_Serpent posted:AITA for having kept my daughter home on school's mandatory "culture day trip"`? Bolded is the part where the OP says they are participating in a prayer service, and where she says it's mandatory. If the kid had been at school that day, she would have been required to go to a house of worship and participate in the service. Grape posted:I didn't say I was religious, I said the complete opposite. So the number your looking for is 0. Sorry, I misread your previous post and thought you said you were religious, not irreligious. So you don't even know what it's like to be okay of a religious out-group you are just trying to analogize your experience as being vaguely not religious? It's different. You are trying to downplay my own lived experience so that you can make some point about multiculturalism. Also, Bahai's get murdered by the state in several different Muslim countries, and would not be welcomed in many mosques. This is true even of mosques that would accommodate Jews and Christians as "people of the book," because Baha'i are viewed not just as unbelievers but as apostates, which is a sin that is punishable by death. I learned plenty about Islam in both childhood through my own faith's religious education (it's actually pretty foundational for the Baha'i faith) as well as my own independent study, and then again in college where it was directly related to my degree, so before you start in on that I have a good handle on Islam and am not some sort of islamphobe. I think learning about religion is fine, but I don't think it belongs in public school where some rear end in a top hat is certain to start pushing kids in one direction or another, and where opening up the topic is bound to out some kids as being the wrong religion and open them up to abuse from their peers.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:39
|
|
|
therobit posted:And they will be othered for not participating. You seem to keep moving the goalposts. Forst is because you think I live in a red state, then when I don't it's because Oregon is white (I'm white and it ain't about race). I do agree that if a school is educating about religions, it's important not to just do the big 3 or big 5!
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:40
|
|
|
Twelve Batmans posted:It's perfectly acceptable to coach them in knowledge of such things, especially to be wary of hyper-religious people who almost always turn out to be complete shitheads. Especially hyper religious atheists.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:41
|
|
|
Its the participating in religious services that gnaws at me too. Id probably pull the kid that day too and go to like a themepark instead.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:48
|
|
|
Cynic Jester posted:Especially hyper religious atheists. Won't argue there.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
therobit posted:Bolded is the part where the OP says they are participating in a prayer service, and where she says it's mandatory. If the kid had been at school that day, she would have been required to go to a house of worship and participate in the service. If it was mandatory they wouldn't be y'know, not going. She says nothing about her kid being failed or in trouble or anything. Also here's a quick question for anyone in the thread but what even is a "praying session". I don't know what that is. Let alone in any of the given contexts of going to such places. This sounds like someone who has never or very rarely been to a service at any place, and just assumes that is what will happened there. And gives it some strange name. Once again most places you go as a visitor are not comfortable with people not on the in, going through the rituals. Like going into a mosque and doing the things just randomly as obvious guests I uh, not seeing that lol. quote:Sorry, I misread your previous post and thought you said you were religious, not irreligious. So you don't even know what it's like to be okay of a religious out-group you are just trying to analogize your experience as being vaguely not religious? It's different. You are trying to downplay my own lived experience so that you can make some point about multiculturalism. I'm not someone raised vaguely irreligious, I was raised irreligious. My mom was raised the same, and my dad was a lapsed Catholic even before he met my mother. Unlike virtually all my peers I was not Christian, in any sense of the word. That's on the out. I'm lucky to be from New England and I didn't really know any evangelical types growing up, that is our difference. quote:Also, Bahai's get murdered by the state in several different Muslim countries, and would not be welcomed in many mosques. Most Muslims, especially in the west, would have the same exact utter cluelessness about what Bahai is as the Christians. And most wouldn't give a crap because "killing non abrahamics" is fundie nutter stuff. Are you going to say we can't bring the Jewish kids anywhere because they've been killed by Muslims and Christians for ages... in specific places in completely different contexts over time and space? quote:I think learning about religion is fine, but I don't think it belongs in public school where some rear end in a top hat is certain to start pushing kids in one direction or another, and where opening up the topic is bound to out some kids as being the wrong religion and open them up to abuse from their peers. This is in the same category as saying one shouldn't talk about race or LGBT stuff. Your own negative experiences have been crap because of an insular garbage attitude from people, and you are now saying that shouldn't be educated against? Doesn't make sense. Namely because you are describing the default attitude.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:01
|
|
|
Participating here probably means "as an observer" guys.Cynic Jester posted:Especially hyper religious atheists. It's amazing how many atheists believe it's not a religion.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:08
|
|
|
I had to do something similar for a summer camp once and the entire experience was both a waste of my time and wholly unpleasant for me so I wouldnt want to make my kid do it.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
Grape posted:This is in the same category as saying one shouldn't talk about race or LGBT stuff. Your own negative experiences have been crap because of an insular garbage attitude from people, and you are now saying that shouldn't be educated against? Doesn't make sense. Namely because you are describing the default attitude. It's not the same. Race and sexuality are inherent and immutable. Ideologies are learned and pounded into you from a young age and very difficult to break but still possible. You can't stop being black or gay, but you can definitely stop being one religion and even convert to others. People do it all the time.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
Grape posted:If it was mandatory they wouldn't be y'know, not going. She says nothing about her kid being failed or in trouble or anything. Public school is not going to educate against it. Not even close. It is precisely because of the way I have seen public school teachers treat religious issues that I don't think they should talk about them at all.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
Barudak posted:I had to do something similar for a summer camp once and the entire experience was both a waste of my time and wholly unpleasant for me so I wouldnt want to make my kid do it. Describe what happened exactly. Namely what the context in a summer camp even was?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:10
|
|