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Einbauschrank posted:Wohnbaugenossenschaften are a very liberal concept amazing how the current thread righty is getting triggered into vomiting word soup
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May 6, 2019 00:04
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Einbauschrank posted:Grenfell Tower fits your description best and that was sozialer Wohnungsbau administered by your communal friendly gemeinnützige GmbH. Certainly the problem of Grenfell tower was that it didn't have Asbestos? But yeah, the housing thing is a pretty complicated problem, and anyone who just says "nationalise!" or "deregulate!" is being too simplistic. Places with nationalised housing weren't exactly known for assigning nice flats to all comers quickly, and reducing renter protections will lead to even more slumlordism. Not letting houses be an attractive investment / speculation object seems like a good idea though.
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May 6, 2019 03:15
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Einbauschrank posted:Grenfell Tower fits your description best and that was sozialer Wohnungsbau administered by your communal friendly gemeinnützige GmbH. Gentrifizierte Vonovia wohnungs are nowadays quiet well kept (in contrast to the Annington era), that's how they justify raising the rent and check the boxes for "gehobene Ausstattung". But both cases don't further your argument, so try posting what you mean instead of beating around the bush. lol imagine being this slow in the head
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May 6, 2019 07:02
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pidan posted:Certainly the problem of Grenfell tower was that it didn't have Asbestos? "Housing is a pretty complicated problem", I say as I fill literally every piece of ground that is developed with luxury apartments instead of (state owned) affordable housing which is actually needed.
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May 6, 2019 07:07
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So bummed that the state simply cannot have know-how about things. It is impossible. Real sad that you are not allowed no work for the state if you have any know-how whatsoever. This is why we need the Free Market, which time and again has proven to have know-how on every subject, and always has the best for the people at heart.
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May 6, 2019 07:16
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Lord Stimperor posted:Basic human necessities - food, shelter, medicine - should never be an investment vehicle. Invest in the companies that maintain these things, okay, but never the underlying asset itself. Welcome to Switzerland, where the working population is zwangsversichert in a kapitalgedeckte Rentenversicherung, leading to immense sums that have to be invested somehow... Into Betongold, since that’s the only thing left that yields something resembling a Rendite. So the average Swiss person pays a chunk of their salary into the Rentenversicherung every month and then shells out another third of their Nettolohn for rent which basically lines the pocket of their Rentenversicherung as well. I guess at least it’s not going to Chinese investment funds or anything like that, but I don’t think this particular way of doing things is very effective.
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May 6, 2019 07:17
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Why would you have any incentive to do anything right if not for the guiding light of Capitalism and the Free Market?
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May 6, 2019 07:20
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I mean, you have only to look at Vienna if you want evidence of the öffentliche Hand being able to avoid the worst excesses of Mietexplosionen at least somewhat by a combination of pumping lots of money into it (600 million per year iirc) and, man glaubt es kaum, a bit of foresight and just a dash of Prinzipientreue. That's not to say that the housing situation on Vienna is perfect or that the SPÖ isn't a Sauhaufen vor dem Herrn, but at least on this particular question they did a lot of good work and continue to do so imo. That means im Detail: - building lots of Gemeindebauten all over the cityand not loving selling them - add a ton of öffentlich geförderte Wohnungen to the mix and suddenly you have a whopping 62% of the city having to pay less rent thanks to the state - destigmatise living im Gemeindebau by keeping the maximum income still eligible for a Gemeindewohnung relatively high (right now it's something like 45.000€/year I think) and not have renters move out even if their income grows beyond that. This also keeps the soziale Durchmischung - in some Gemeindebauten you have Nationalratsabgeordnete and Theaterintendanten living next door to Putzfrauen and Paketboten And wouldn't you know it, those policies also keep the rent low in those houses and flats that are 100% privately owned! I couldnt quickly find more current numbers, but in 2017 the average netto rent per sqm was at 9,60€ in Vienna compared to ~13€ in Prague or Rome and 26€ in London or Paris! To be sure, the situation in Vienna is a result of more than a century of careful social democrat housing policy and not easily replizierbar, but as long as you are prepared to follow through with it, to invest a *lot* of money and to have a situation where only a small minority of Wohnungen are owned instead of rented it's still a good ideal to aspire to I think.
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May 6, 2019 07:32
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Einbauschrank posted:But one thing will not change even under Full Socialism Now Only Without Schießbefehl: If there's a hard limit of 200.000 people fitting into the Prenzlauer Berg area but 2 million people who would like to live there, 1,8 million people will feel shafted by the system.
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May 6, 2019 08:18
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Love how the thread title stays current. Chilies: left them outside at 1 degrees C a night back and I guess they all died. Took them back in but I’m not holding my breath, leaves look weak af. Got like 5 late bloomers still on a windowsill which are my only hope now. Hope one of the Sichuan ones make it!
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May 6, 2019 13:15
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Zwille posted:Love how the thread title stays current. Probably not too late to order plants from ChiliFood or whatever that website is called! The three I got from there are starting to grow like crazy and I really need to Umtopf them into their final homes. And I have to order some Tomatenerde from an online shop or something since my local garden center doesn't carry any for some weird reason.
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May 6, 2019 13:28
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Yeah that’d feel like cheating but hey I tried. I’m gonna look into it if they all die. I got a weird mix of Pflanzerde, Gartenerde and Tomatenerde going now, I don’t even remember anymore. All bio though. Bought two tomatoes for 79ct each and put them in big Kübel and guess they died too. Would it be a good idea to give everyone a good helping of Tomatendünger though? 🤔
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May 6, 2019 13:40
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https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/spahn-masern-101.htmlquote:Bundesgesundheitsminister Jens Spahn will verpflichtende Masern-Impfungen für Kita- und Schulkinder durchsetzen und dafür Geldstrafen von bis zu 2500 Euro und einen Ausschluss vom Kita-Besuch androhen. Mal gespannt ob das nur wieder heisse Luft ist. Auch: Genial dass die angedachte Geldstrafe ein erhobener Zeigefinger für Reiche, und utopisch für Hartz4ler ist. Prozentrechnung ist wohl hart.
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May 6, 2019 15:47
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Mithaldu posted:https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/spahn-masern-101.html Yeah, don't we have the concept of Tagessätze specifically to avoid this issue? Or are those only applicable in a particular context somehow?
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May 6, 2019 15:59
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Das soll wahrscheinlich Geldbuße und nicht Geldstrafe heißen. Bei Bußgeldern gibt es statt Tagessätzen diese expliziten Obergrenzen.
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May 6, 2019 16:17
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Mithaldu posted:https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/spahn-masern-101.html There's a famous case where a daycare in the US started imposing a fine for picking your kid up later than allowed. The effect was that more people started picking their child up late. Because in their mind, the fine was the cost of late pick-up, and the rule changed from "don't do this" to "do this if you want and can pay for it". I guess this vax fine might have a similar effect, where people who might have felt a bit guilty about not vaccinating will now see the fine as having paid their due. On the other hand, it will probably motivate all those people who just don't vaccinate because they're busy or forgetful. What I would do is just line up the kids and vaxx them in schools, as was done to my generation, though I think my mom gave me a Wisch that exempted me, or maybe I just forgot to bring my vaxx book and we never wrote it down  . (Ich hab mich später selber noch mal impfen lassen, sicher ist sicher).
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May 6, 2019 16:30
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Hosting those vaccination events in schools always struck me as very helpful, and I remember being kinda shocked when I found out that it wasn't actually mandatory. As a youngin I could have sworn it was, and I saw nothing wrong with that. I still don't, and I hope that becomes the case, personally. Nobody should permit any loving around when serious health issues are the consequence.
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May 6, 2019 17:21
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The 2500 Euro don't pay for the entry to a Kita though, the child still wouldn't be allowed to attend, which is the difference to the late-comer fee example. I wanted to write that 2500 Euros are a "erhobener Zeigefinger" for only a small minority of families, but then I looked up the median household income for couples with children (around 4700/month btw.) and now I agree, it should be tied to the income, but starting at 2500 instead of that being the maximum. Not innoculating your children and endangering those that can't be inoculated has got to hurt. I'm usually not a law and order type, but I have seen what the measles did to a childhood friends brain and seriously, gently caress everyone who enables that.
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May 6, 2019 17:21
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Und natürlich tauchen von der SPD und den Grünen wieder Bedenkenträger auf, die zwar betonen, dass Impfen und gut und richtig sei, aber man ja niemanden dazu zwingen könne.  (Man merkt, dass Impf"kritik" und "Alternativmedizin" Geisteskrankheiten der Mittelschicht sind, wenn selbst die ansonsten rückwärtsgewandte CDU sich nicht gegen das Impfen richtet.)
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May 6, 2019 18:06
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Randler posted:Und natürlich tauchen von der SPD und den Grünen wieder Bedenkenträger auf, die zwar betonen, dass Impfen und gut und richtig sei, aber man ja niemanden dazu zwingen könne. Soweit ich weiß neigen die Anhänger von Rudolf Steiner zur "Impfkritik", also werden die Grünen sich nie 100% für das Impfen aussprechen.
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May 6, 2019 18:15
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Einbauschrank posted:Grenfell Tower fits your description best and that was sozialer Wohnungsbau administered by your communal friendly gemeinnützige GmbH. Gentrifizierte Vonovia wohnungs are nowadays quiet well kept (in contrast to the Annington era), that's how they justify raising the rent and check the boxes for "gehobene Ausstattung". But both cases don't further your argument, so try posting what you mean instead of beating around the bush. - Every single things that went wrong with Grenfell Tower you will find on the private market a thousand times worse and more frequent. I'm not sure what point you are making here? - Also, Vonovia? The company that is involved in a new scandal every other week for implementing ultra-shady Abzock- and Ausbeutertaktiken and probably has the worst Kundenzufrieden of anything ever? Why would you chose them for your example?  - The öffentliche Hand build millions of apartments. I'm sure it can manage another couple hundred thousand more. - Also, your DDR boogeyman scare rhetoric is not gonna land outside the FAZ echo chamber and I'm not sure why you bring it up again and again here. I grew up in a nice cheap WBG flat& lived in a fantastic Genossenschaftswohnung for a while. I don't give a poo poo about Honecker. quote:It doesn't help that tall buildings are forbidden e.g. in Munich. The fact that money is invested into modernizing rather than Neubauten (in Germany) is also an indicator that land is one of the bottlenecks. And this partly an artificial problem of the Kommunen who don't ausweis Baufläche or some stupid bougie Green NIMBY poo poo like Tempelhof going on. This is the only thing I can agree with you on. A huge part of the housing crisis is caused by lovely city NIMBY behavior and the complete Unwille by the cities to do anything serious about the problem. London has 8 mio residents, Munich has only 1.5 mio. There is absolutely no reason why the city couldn't grow beyond its current size through Nachverdichtung and spread. But that would need huge public transport expansions, städtischer Wohnungsbau and to stand up to NIMBYs and none of that is ever gonna happen under the current mindset of "Weiter so! Final salvation is just another Grundsteuerform around the corner!"
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May 6, 2019 18:23
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Zwille posted:Chilies: left them outside at 1 degrees C a night back and I guess they all died. Took them back in but I’m not holding my breath, leaves look weak af. Got like 5 late bloomers still on a windowsill which are my only hope now. Hope one of the Sichuan ones make it! Luckily I took in mine so they’re not dead (except for those dying to whatever else). Some of the Feuerküsschen now also have blooms, yay! They just don’t get bestäubt cause the weather is still poo poo for the next few days. I probably need to use some Wattestäbchen soon.
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May 6, 2019 19:06
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Randler posted:Und natürlich tauchen von der SPD und den Grünen wieder Bedenkenträger auf, die zwar betonen, dass Impfen und gut und richtig sei, aber man ja niemanden dazu zwingen könne. I started to do a thing once where I tried to correlate measles outbreaks with Grüne votes, on the Wahlbezirk level, but IIRC the disease stats weren't fine-grained enough for that and also I'm insanely loving lazy. But  all around
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May 6, 2019 19:15
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Smirr posted:I started to do a thing once where I tried to correlate measles outbreaks with Grüne votes, on the Wahlbezirk level, but IIRC the disease stats weren't fine-grained enough for that and also I'm insanely loving lazy. But Ich wähle die Grünen und spreche mich 125% für das Impfen aus, also hätte deine Korrellation wahrscheinlich eh nicht funktioniert.
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May 6, 2019 20:26
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Libluini posted:Ich wähle die Grünen und spreche mich 125% für das Impfen aus, also hätte deine Korrellation wahrscheinlich eh nicht funktioniert. Das Problem der Grünen ist, dass sie nicht nur halbwegs vernünftiges Gedankengut fördern, sondern neben süddeutschen Spiessbürgern auch aus der Anstalt ausgebrochene Irre ganz ok finden, so lange die sich grün anstreichen lassen.
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May 6, 2019 20:37
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Mano posted:Luckily I took in mine so they’re not dead (except for those dying to whatever else). Some of the Feuerküsschen now also have blooms, yay! They just don’t get bestäubt cause the weather is still poo poo for the next few days. I probably need to use some Wattestäbchen soon. I got pics of one of the ones I gave away and it's growing like crazy! Dude claims he didn't do anything except put it on the windowsill, so my bet is that outside was too cold all along because mine have barely grown since then (and then apparently went full belly up). 
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May 6, 2019 20:51
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Libluini posted:Ich wähle die Grünen und spreche mich 125% für das Impfen aus, also hätte deine Korrellation wahrscheinlich eh nicht funktioniert. I try to be positive, but honestly this is one of the most baffling posts I've ever read in this thread. I didn't say that I assume that all Grüne voters are anti-vaxxers (which would in fact be falsified by your existence). I said that I assume that Grüne voters have a relatively high proportion of anti-vaxxers (which your existence has very little bearing on).
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May 6, 2019 21:09
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suck my woke dick posted:Das Problem der Grünen ist, dass sie nicht nur halbwegs vernünftiges Gedankengut fördern, sondern neben süddeutschen Spiessbürgern auch aus der Anstalt ausgebrochene Irre ganz ok finden, so lange die sich grün anstreichen lassen. Na ja, wenn meine Partei so viele Antis hat wie Smirr denkt, wird die nächste Seuche nur noch mich übrig lassen. Ich werde dann ein paar Änderungen vornehmen.  Smirr posted:I try to be positive, but honestly this is one of the most baffling posts I've ever read in this thread. Ironically, that was my reaction to your post. Your assumption sounded so dumb I could only react with a lame joke post
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May 6, 2019 21:14
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once the bourgeoisie has killed itself with polio and keuchhusten, the lumpenproletariat will finally rule the earth. Jusr as the great Marx envisioned
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May 6, 2019 21:19
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Opferwurst posted:Jusr as the great Marx envisioned IIRC Marx view on the Lumpenproletariat was actually closer to SPD Münte's view on those without Lohnarbeit.
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May 6, 2019 21:24
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Libluini posted:Ironically, that was my reaction to your post. Your assumption sounded so dumb I could only react with a lame joke post The thing that got me started on that theory is that people tend to assume that anti-vaccination beliefs tend to be held by parents of, say, Chantals or Mohammeds, while I assume that it's probably far more widespread among parents of whatever your first name is. There's just no way that actual poor people go "hm, I will pass on this vaccination for my child even though it's essentially free" to an extent that it causes measles outbreaks, while there is a very real chance that people who have opinions on Elektrosmog will do just that. I don't know, this seems like common sense to me
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May 6, 2019 21:40
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Zwille posted:I got pics of one of the ones I gave away and it's growing like crazy! Dude claims he didn't do anything except put it on the windowsill, so my bet is that outside was too cold all along because mine have barely grown since then (and then apparently went full belly up). Since most are from climates with temperatures above 20, 25 C, keeping them out in the night is still a bit off around here I think. Although it might be an idea to get some variants from colder climates, like Hungarian or so which should be better with lower temps?
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May 6, 2019 21:53
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I think the best dataset on where people vaccinate their children the most/least you can get for Germany would be http://www.vacmap.de/ (for measles and the Rota virus, on a Landkreis/Berliner Bezirk basis). I didn't look too closely into it but it doesn't seem like there is any obvious correlation between Greens voting share and vaccination rate. Otoh a quick googling led to this article on measles patients in Berlin and this one for Bavaria which both seem to indicate that there might be at least the possibility of a correlation. It's hard to say either way, though - this sociologist says that the main factor in whether you're sceptical towards vaccines seems to be young age and having a child, neither of which are a predominantly Green feature, whereas this statistical analysis sees a correlation between rising income and lower vaccination rates (albeit a very weak one, to be fair).
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May 6, 2019 22:14
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Opferwurst posted:- Every single things that went wrong with Grenfell Tower you will find on the private market a thousand times worse and more frequent. I'm not sure what point you are making here? - My point was: Write in clear prose instead of constructing convoluted strawmen. The best known incident with aluminum-sheets happened to be Grenfell, it's like the Chernobyl of recent (Western European) housing incidents. And these sheets were built in to satisfy some Wärmedämmungsvorschriften. So I hope you see a pattern here. I don't have statistics handy when it comes to whether Sozialwohnungen in öffentlicher Hand are burning down more or less often than Wohnungen on the freier Markt, especially those that were recently aufgewertet to raise the rent, but I also guess that's not really central to our discussion. It simply seemed like a very bad example in a very muddy sentence. But I am genuinely grateful for you clearing it up. - Vonovia is actually a good example of how hosed up the red tape is. An older couple used to own a house which I helped them administer as their health was failing. They finally sold it (I even think to Terra Firma) because the fuckery was too much for them. It was one of those old low rent houses. So you had to invest lot of time for very little return on investment. They didn't try to shaft their tenants, they simply weren't professional accountants and neither was I. After selling the house they watch their investments rise and don't have people calling them on Sundays because their sink is dripping. Vonovia can get away with shady poo poo, because the corporation has adapted to withstand the red tape that is driving Kleinvermieter away. Some tenant raising a muck? It's some clerk's problem from 9-5, but not 24/7/365. Also, for the anecdotal record: I am a tenant of Vonovia, I have received a very structured Nebenkostenabrechnung which I have used for the Absetzung of Handwerksleistungen and a usually pretty quick service for little stuff like mold in the corner of the bath etc. I am not sure if Vonovia has a worse track record than others, they happen to have 400k appartments and I have experienced how much trouble one house can cause. - I am not against WBGs, on the contrary, they are a perfectly liberal solution and I am also a big fan of Bausparen etc.. I'm simply pointing out that they don't magically solve most problems associated with the housing market and they still need money to build *new* appartments. I was also wrong, because I implicitly thought that there's the a difference between Wohnbau- and Wohnungsgenossenschaft, as in the former builds new appartments, the latter only rents them out. But the question still stand: How does a non-profit org raise money for *new* appartments. The Baugewerbe is running so hot it's good it isn't covered in aluminum sheets. They are building around 300k appartments a year (mostly for the private sector) and about 80k Sozialwohnungen (or mietpreisgebundene Wohnungen or whatever) would be needed yearly. That's a sizeable chunk that would be quite expensive, even more so at the moment. Wohnungsbau has been a big issue since the end of WW2 and I think you are underestimating the effort that has been put into it and that continues going into it. In the early 2000s, before Schröder, we had a declining population, no big migration pull and - due to the stagnating economy - a much slower Binnenwanderung into the Städte. Lot's of appartments were emptying, which is why Dresden didn't have a problem selling its appartments. We now have to catch up with this relatively recent development. Add to that, since 2006 the states are responsible for organizing the Wohnungsbaupolitik. So far, they have cashed in the money from Berlin but not spent it on Wohnungen, because it isn't zweckgebunden. Seems like Politikversagen to me. - The GDR isn't a bogeyman. It's the most recent example in German history of a non free-market wohnungsmarkt.I would have agreed on the bogeyman accusation if I had painted some bleak picture of all WBGs being run down hell holes like they can be seen in socialist states. But I was pointing out the allocation problem. So you had a nice, cheap WBG appartment. Good for you, but why do you deserve it more than the other 85% (to use Berlin numbers)? This is where the GDR example comes in. You either have some gamey Punktesystem (that's why people were entering a sham marriage or enlisting in the NVA) or a long Wartezeit or cronyism or dumb luck. System Metternich posted:I mean, you have only to look at Vienna if you want evidence of the öffentliche Hand being able to avoid the worst excesses of Mietexplosionen at least somewhat by a combination of pumping lots of money into it (600 million per year iirc) and, man glaubt es kaum, a bit of foresight and just a dash of Prinzipientreue. [...]To be sure, the situation in Vienna is a result of more than a century of careful social democrat housing policy and not easily replizierbar, but as long as you are prepared to follow through with it, to invest a *lot* of money and to have a situation where only a small minority of Wohnungen are owned instead of rented it's still a good ideal to aspire to I think. Vienna is often cited and I think in the long run this is the direction big cities in Germany will likely be heading. But I don't think that Karl Lueger, the father of the Vienna housing policy, was member of the SPÖ or any ither social democratic party.
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May 7, 2019 08:47
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Einbauschrank posted:- My point was: Write in clear prose instead of constructing convoluted strawmen. The best known incident with aluminum-sheets happened to be Grenfell, it's like the Chernobyl of recent (Western European) housing incidents. And these sheets were built in to satisfy some Wärmedämmungsvorschriften. So I hope you see a pattern here. I don't have statistics handy when it comes to whether Sozialwohnungen in öffentlicher Hand are burning down more or less often than Wohnungen on the freier Markt, especially those that were recently aufgewertet to raise the rent, but I also guess that's not really central to our discussion. It simply seemed like a very bad example in a very muddy sentence. But I am genuinely grateful for you clearing it up. * Was cladding actually installed for Wärmedämmungsvorschriften reasons, because earlier reports suggested that cladding was only added in after rich neighbours pushed for it so the poor would be less of an eyesore quote:- The GDR isn't a bogeyman. It's the most recent example in German history of a non free-market wohnungsmarkt.I would have agreed on the bogeyman accusation if I had painted some bleak picture of all WBGs being run down hell holes like they can be seen in socialist states. But I was pointing out the allocation problem. So you had a nice, cheap WBG appartment. Good for you, but why do you deserve it more than the other 85% (to use Berlin numbers)? This is where the GDR example comes in. You either have some gamey Punktesystem (that's why people were entering a sham marriage or enlisting in the NVA) or a long Wartezeit or cronyism or dumb luck. quote:Vienna is often cited and I think in the long run this is the direction big cities in Germany will likely be heading. But I don't think that Karl Lueger, the father of the Vienna housing policy, was member of the SPÖ or any ither social democratic party.
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May 7, 2019 09:16
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Einbauschrank posted:
That might be the worst example of goal post moving I've ever seen.
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May 7, 2019 09:17
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Einbauschrank posted:Vienna is often cited and I think in the long run this is the direction big cities in Germany will likely be heading. But I don't think that Karl Lueger, the father of the Vienna housing policy, was member of the SPÖ or any ither social democratic party. Where did you get this from, the ÖVP homepage?  While Lueger was an active proponent of Christian socialism (and also a fanatical antisemite, though that's neither here nor there in this case) and did follow up on his ambitious social welfare policies, re: Wohnungsnot all he did was to create a central register for free apartments so that apartment-hunting would go easier. Literally every single Gemeindebau was built after WW1 and virtually all of them by the SPÖ!** there is a tiny handful of Gemeindebauten constructed between 1934 and 1945, when the SPÖ had to go underground, but they represent only a minuscule percentage of total Baumasse and the Bautätigkeit during those years is vanishingly small vs the SPÖ years before or after
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May 7, 2019 09:21
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System Metternich posted:Where did you get this from, the ÖVP homepage? I was under the impression he was the one to kickstart the Sozialprogramme which were continued and expanded im Roten Wien. E.g. here https://radikale-linke.at/de/2016/12/02/achtung-deutschnationale-und-antisemitische-kontinuitaten-2/ But I don’t want to derail this. I agree (apparently that’s goal post shifting) that the Vienna housing policy might become an example for Germany which historically lacked a strong centre and therefore didn’t experience many of the metropolitan woes of other cities.
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May 7, 2019 09:41
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Can we maybe just ignore Einbauschrank and let him move back to the FAZ forums? It's not even fun reading his worn out dumb arguments.
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May 7, 2019 09:50
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Einbauschrank posted:
I don't know if you're really this dumb, but the goal post shifting was the last sentence. The one where you pretended that the discussion was about the party affiliation of Karl Lueger.
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May 7, 2019 09:58
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