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Also if folks haven't seen it, Gundam Info put up The Origin in a variety of subs and dubs.
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May 3, 2019 18:12
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After reading the Gihren's Greed thread (link on last page) I got to thinking what AUs could work as a, uh, 'Greed' game. Wing might be able to work, aren't there generally two factions at any one time, despite them changing flags all the time? And there's at least one smaller faction that punches above their weight class (Sanc Kingdom?). 00 has at least three at one point, though the general war between them was mostly off-screen. None of the others really work, but then I thought "Wait, what about SEED? SEED was gigantic when it was airing, where's the Greed game?" It has two larger factions, and some minor factions that punch way above their weight class (Orb, 3-Ships) And the reason I'm posting this in here instead of in there is because I came to two conclusions: -Obviously, it doesn't have 8000 years of MSVs and offshoot shows to have a shitton of units to draw from (which admittedly hobbles every AU). -Outside of the main protagonists, are there any sympathetic characters in the Earth Alliance or whatever they call the Earth faction in SEED? I can't think of a single one. ZAFT at least has one or two, but the EA seems to have two groups: 'Kira's team before they broke away' and 'gigantic racists'. Is there anyone in the EA that's even marginally sympathetic outside of Kira and the Archangel? (Disclaimer: I saw maybe three eps of original SEED, got spoiled on the rest, and for reasons that escape me watched all of Destiny.)
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May 3, 2019 21:16
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Seed absolutely has a ton of side stories. It's just that most of them are Astray. Which does give you another faction right there, the Junk Guild. An obvious thing for a Gihren's Greed style game would be that if Natarle Badriguel survives past the end of Seed, she goes on to lead an anti-Blue Cosmos faction of the Earth Alliance
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May 3, 2019 21:34
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Seed is incredible in that, Astray, its side story, has been going on longer than the actual main story.
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May 3, 2019 22:14
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Oh, it's been a while, and nobody asked, but I finished Unicorn, and on the net, I think it's... good? Not great, not anywhere near my favorite, but at minimum I liked it better than 08th. Animation was impressive, fights were more dynamic than I was expecting, and a lot of the characters were good, or at least alright. Sadly, Banagher wasn't one of them, and it's all the more frustrating since he spends so much time almost working. He's got the scenes where he tries to cope with killing people he had dinner with not long before, Riddhe's rivalry over how Banagher effortlessly achieves what he found impossible is solid, and his idealism being based less on concrete reasoning and more on a complete unwillingness to compromise with the grim realities of the Universal Century played nicely off how Full Frontal was Char as a mask with no real beliefs of his own. (Minerva even commented on how the real Char was, for all his sins, still an idealist, a man who believed in something.) But he never quite makes that step from being an idea to being an interesting character, and that's all the more frustrating when the show actually managed it with Riddhe, Zinnerman, Marida, and even Daguza. They felt like people, (even if more people-as-narrative-tools than in a lot of other Gundam serieses), where Banagher never made that last jump. And since he's our lead, that's a real problem for the show as a whole. (Also, yeah. Zinnerman's backstory doesn't really work with past UC stuff, and the Zeon dissolving in UC 100 is weird.) Glad I watched it, didn't hate it, but I can see why people criticize it as well as why other people love it.
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May 4, 2019 00:38
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For me, it always comes down to how he's introduce. Other UC protagonist are always introduced in a way that gets across their characters: Amuro is a paranoid shut-in, Kamille is a student with major issues, etc. You get a feeling of who they are outside of the story. Banagher just enters the plot doing plot stuff.
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May 4, 2019 03:56
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MonsieurChoc posted:For me, it always comes down to how he's introduce. Other UC protagonist are always introduced in a way that gets across their characters: Amuro is a paranoid shut-in, Kamille is a student with major issues, etc. You get a feeling of who they are outside of the story. Yeah. That's a big part of it, I think. (And it's not just the UC. Domon spends his first episode having defining character moments, and the first time we see Mikazuki Augus, he's killing a man and asking Orga what he should do next as Orga stares in horror. Gundam's got a lot of great intros.)
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May 4, 2019 04:22
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Airspace posted:After reading the Gihren's Greed thread (link on last page) I got to thinking what AUs could work as a, uh, 'Greed' game. Wing might be able to work, aren't there generally two factions at any one time, despite them changing flags all the time? And there's at least one smaller faction that punches above their weight class (Sanc Kingdom?). I'm pretty sure Wing had periods where there were at least 3 factions running around, and maybe even as many as 4. You started with the United Earth Sphere Alliance, which initially had OZ and Romefeller inside it like nesting dolls, vs the colonial independence movement composed of the proto-White Fang and the Barton Foundation, which employed the Gundam Scientists and through them, the Gundams & their pilots. The Gundam Scientists reject the Barton Foundation's plan for mass slaughter and indiscriminate terrorism and go rogue, sending the Gundams to Earth with a focus on military targets. That makes 2 overt factions (UESA [OZ {Romefeller}]), Gundams) and between 1 and 2 covert ones (Barton Foundation and proto-White Fang). Then Noventa starts making peace noises, so OZ overthrows the UESA at Romefeller's behest, splitting the field into 3 overt factions (UESA Remnants, OZ [Romefeller], Gundams), and the same 1-2 covert ones. After that, the Sanc Kingdom is re-established, Zechs teams up with Howard on the Peacemillion, and the issue of Mobile Dolls splits OZ between Romefeller and Treize, bringing the number of active factions up to 5 (Sanc, Zechs, Romefeller, Treize, Gundams), albeit briefly. The Treize Faction and the Sanc Kingdom are soon suppressed by the Romefeller Foundation's Mobile Dolls, but the White Fang emerges from the shadows, recruiting survivors of the Treize Faction and Zechs himself, even as the Gundam pilots coalesce aboard the Peacemillion and Relena usurps control of Romefeller before abdicating in Treize's favor, bringing us back down to 3 active factions. After the defeat of the White Fang and the formation of the Earth Sphere Unified Nation (which the Gundam pilots are part of/allied with), the Barton Foundation comes out behind the Mariemaia Army. So 2 (+1d2)→3 (+1d2)→5 (+1)→3 (+1)→2.5→1 factions.
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May 4, 2019 09:12
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Ka0 posted:Seed is incredible in that, Astray, its side story, has been going on longer than the actual main story. So long as Astray is a source of new model kits that sell to hobbyists it will keep on trucking.
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May 4, 2019 15:33
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The thing that always gets me about the original version of Operation Meteor is that overall the Gundams are terribly designed for it, and they honestly aren't much better for the revised version that does get used, the only reason it really works at all is because they're mostly invulnerable to anything Oz can throw at them
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May 5, 2019 00:47
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drrockso20 posted:The thing that always gets me about the original version of Operation Meteor is that overall the Gundams are terribly designed for it, and they honestly aren't much better for the revised version that does get used, the only reason it really works at all is because they're mostly invulnerable to anything Oz can throw at them I thought the only plan for the original Operation Meteor was a colony drop. It explains why the Gundam Boys accomplished practically nothing. Their deployment was the last minute scheme of five crazy scientists who decided small acts of terrorism were preferable to genocide. Random Note: This scene is great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFnusMJgcWo NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:41 on May 5, 2019 |
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May 5, 2019 01:36
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NikkolasKing posted:I thought the only plan for the original Operation Meteor was a colony drop. Wing is 
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May 5, 2019 01:47
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The Wing mad scientists are the best.
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May 5, 2019 03:18
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NikkolasKing posted:I thought the only plan for the original Operation Meteor was a colony drop. IIRC, it was "colony drop, then Gundams terrorize/conquer the Earth in the ensuing chaos," or something along those lines.
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May 5, 2019 06:43
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IIRC the Unicorn's shields also have i-fields.
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May 5, 2019 07:59
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Anshu posted:IIRC, it was "colony drop, then Gundams terrorize/conquer the Earth in the ensuing chaos," or something along those lines. From everything I remember the colony drop was supposed to be the cover for them being dropped to Earth and then in the chaos and loss of command and control they'd cripple things further and facilitate the Barton Foundation's takeover. All five of the scientists seemed to be independently conspiring against it to varying degree though. Not-Trowa kind of forced the one group's hands by straight up murdering Trowa Barton and taking over his identity/unit but the scientist and support group were clearly having second thoughts by that point anyways. Wufei's wife was the intended pilot of Shenlong but that went to poo poo when Oz found out and attacked their colony which left him as the pilot after she died using a Tallgeese to protect their colony from them. Heero would have done whatever the gently caress was asked of him given how much they messed him up but he was probably always going to be turned against the Foundation given what we see of his scientist supporter. Duo not going along was inevitable given he's shown to violently disagree the instant he finds out what the actual plan is and his scientist partner just straight tells him to take Deathscythe and go rather than destroying it like Duo intended. Quatre is the most obvious one of all for not going along with the original plan given what a big ol' softy he is and I kind of wonder why he was even chosen at all. So at best 3 out of the original 5 would have cooperated. Heero's so broken he'd have just done whatever he was told, original Trowa was an rear end in a top hat and stood to personally benefit, and Wufei's a huge rear end in a top hat but no telling if he'd have gone along with colony drop and resulting murderfrenzy given his weird-rear end code of honor. Argas posted:IIRC the Unicorn's shields also have i-fields. They do. Every single one of them. It's that circular bit in the middle when they expand/unfold.
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May 5, 2019 08:11
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I imagine Quatre got chosen because his family was already funding an anti Oz group
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May 5, 2019 08:53
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drrockso20 posted:I imagine Quatre got chosen because his family was already funding an anti Oz group That's the only way I can figure it, yeah. I don't remember if they ever get into his backstory on it at all in the main series or Endless Waltz, though. They show Duo and not-Trowa's rebellion against the idea, and show some of Heero's history at least. Wufei's stuff is just via one of the mangas.
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May 5, 2019 10:08
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I could see Quatre and his sisters finding out the details of what was actually about to go down and quietly, without muss and without fuss and with a heavy heart offing all the people responsible and co opting their side of the operation. And never speaking of it again. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 00:05 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 00:02
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I would actually be interested to see if there was any side material on how Quatre wound up being involved in it, given from what I remember of his father's disposition to the whole thing and what wound up happening to him in the TV show.
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May 6, 2019 00:31
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Airspace posted:Is there anyone in the EA that's even marginally sympathetic outside of Kira and the Archangel? There was a general called Haliburton who appeared as a sympathetic character during the first dozen or so episodes, but is killed while the Archangel is descending to Earth during the requisite atmospheric battle if I recall. He was probably supposed to be kind of like SEED's Revil. chiasaur11 posted:Also, yeah. Zinnerman's backstory doesn't really work with past UC stuff, and the Zeon dissolving in UC 100 is weird. I think Side 3/Zeon being dissolved as an independent entity predates Unicorn, but I honestly couldn't tell you where I'm getting that idea from. Regardless, Zinnerman's family was killed during occupation of Side 3 following the One Year War rather than during the war itself; which seems reasonably plausible given the events depicted in 0079/Zeta to me. If it's not, then I'd still say it's a change for the better. Maybe not the rape element which I think was included, but the Federation occupying and getting out of hand in Side 3. It's a small change that helps further balance the morality of the two factions by making both kind of lovely about how they conducted themselves in the war rather than almost all of it being put on Zeon while the Federation is mostly confined to having lovely leaders. chiasaur11 posted:And it's not just the UC. Domon spends his first episode having defining character moments, and the first time we see Mikazuki Augus, he's killing a man and asking Orga what he should do next as Orga stares in horror. Gundam's got a lot of great intros. Mikazuki enters playing war-games/training with Guts and some other pilot, before showing concern for one fellow Tekkadan kids' injuries and then escorting the princess character and refusing to shake her hand because he was socially beneath her and didn't believe her sincere or worthwhile; not killing someone on Orga's command. Similarily, Banagher enters the show at school. Which is kind of bland, but not plot stuff really. No more than Bellri entering the story as a student on the orbital elevator is.
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May 6, 2019 15:48
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IIRC, the Episode Zero manga has it that Quatre is already on the outs with his dad because he thinks his dad just sees everyone, but especially Quatre, as a pawn in his space political games. He was pretty ripe for some good old fashioned radicalization.
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May 6, 2019 15:50
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tsob posted:I think Side 3/Zeon being dissolved as an independent entity predates Unicorn, but I honestly couldn't tell you where I'm getting that idea from.
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May 6, 2019 16:38
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If I recall correctly the whole "Side 3 gets absorbed back into the Federation peacefully around UC 0100" bit first cropped up around the time F91 came out, I think it was one of the reasons Mars Zeon is all pissy at the Federation during the events of F90 & Silhouette Wars UC 0122
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May 6, 2019 20:02
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drrockso20 posted:If I recall correctly the whole "Side 3 gets absorbed back into the Federation peacefully around UC 0100" bit first cropped up around the time F91 came out, I think it was one of the reasons Mars Zeon is all pissy at the Federation during the events of F90 & Silhouette Wars UC 0122 I remember it as well in Gundam Plot to Assassinate Gihren, which was a super good manga and you should totally read it.
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May 6, 2019 20:11
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You know, I really would appreciate a more sedate Gihren's Greed sim where you're just trying to get things together in the AC/whatever universe and then sometimes the IT'S A GUNDAM warning flashes and you get a pretty Gundam boy tornadoing into your periphery
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May 6, 2019 22:16
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tsob posted:I think Side 3/Zeon being dissolved as an independent entity predates Unicorn, but I honestly couldn't tell you where I'm getting that idea from. Regardless, Zinnerman's family was killed during occupation of Side 3 following the One Year War rather than during the war itself; which seems reasonably plausible given the events depicted in 0079/Zeta to me. If it's not, then I'd still say it's a change for the better. Maybe not the rape element which I think was included, but the Federation occupying and getting out of hand in Side 3. It's a small change that helps further balance the morality of the two factions by making both kind of lovely about how they conducted themselves in the war rather than almost all of it being put on Zeon while the Federation is mostly confined to having lovely leaders. The Origin further shows the Federation to be into the whole colonial oppression game whole-hog, though The Origin started after Unicorn's source material was published correct? Still, it's hard to balance the scales when the Principality was explicitly a spacenoid supremacy movement under Ghiren. Even if that gets washed out a bit by the "Lost Cause" types after the war... Zeon are Nazis. Ghiren motivated people by telling them they are the "chosen, superior race." He tells his own father that part of the plan is to explicitly genocide the people he considers undesirable. I don't think balancing the morality is a good idea, especially where the leadership are concerned. And as I think back on it, I'm having trouble thinking of any Zeon veteran who honestly says, "Yeah, we hosed up letting the Zabis lead us down that path. Independence is a righteous cause, but not when its vehicle is genocide and space-racism." I hope someone who knows better can correct me on that last bit.
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May 7, 2019 03:18
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Why is it necessary to balance the morality of the two factions? Basically the entire setup for Zeon in MSG was that they were horrible space Nazis/Imperial Japanese led by a blood-gargling fascist psychopath but the tragedy of war is that sympathetic people can get caught up in horrible causes for all sorts of reasons. The Federation are not portrayed as super great but in terms of relative scale the Federation is an ugly skin rash compared to Zeon's full-body flesh eating virus in terms of horror.
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May 7, 2019 04:12
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Warmachine posted:The Origin further shows the Federation to be into the whole colonial oppression game whole-hog, though The Origin started after Unicorn's source material was published correct? Still, it's hard to balance the scales when the Principality was explicitly a spacenoid supremacy movement under Ghiren. Even if that gets washed out a bit by the "Lost Cause" types after the war... Zeon are Nazis. Ghiren motivated people by telling them they are the "chosen, superior race." He tells his own father that part of the plan is to explicitly genocide the people he considers undesirable. Why on Earth would a Japanese person want to admit that?
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May 7, 2019 04:15
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Warmachine posted:The Origin further shows the Federation to be into the whole colonial oppression game whole-hog, though The Origin started after Unicorn's source material was published correct? Still, it's hard to balance the scales when the Principality was explicitly a spacenoid supremacy movement under Ghiren. Even if that gets washed out a bit by the "Lost Cause" types after the war... Zeon are Nazis. Ghiren motivated people by telling them they are the "chosen, superior race." He tells his own father that part of the plan is to explicitly genocide the people he considers undesirable. That last bit is basically the whole plot of "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren". Also, Char pretty much continually goes "To be clear, gently caress the Zabis. Those guys are the worst. Now, back to dropping colonies on Earth, because we aren't going to let them ruin that for us."
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May 7, 2019 04:27
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Anshu posted:Why on Earth would a Japanese person want to admit that? Snide answer? Self-awareness. I'm well aware of the cultural reasons Zeon are the way they are. But just because that is the way things were/are, doesn't mean that they should be that way. chiasaur11 posted:That last bit is basically the whole plot of "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren". The Plot is one of the things I haven't had any exposure to, so I'm going to want to take a look at that at some point. As far as Char goes... ugh, yeah, but that's not what I meeeeean. He's also a straight-up ecofascist. He might not be down with the whole Zabi thing, but "freeze the Earth and force the survivors into space" sounds an awful lot like, "genocide the undesirables so the spacenoid elite have more resources" Gihren was selling. Just with a coat of red paint. If the rallies are to be taken as evidence, the average Zeon citizen was huffing Zabi farts through most of the One Year War. Side 3 also took the least damage of the Sides, so it stands to reason the average citizen would see the war from a distance. I'm sure the Earth Invasion Force probably grew disenchanted much quicker than those who remained in space, but the general sentiment following the war seems to be a bunch of ex post facto justifications that wash out the spacenoid supremacy part of Ghiren's Zeonism. Which as Anshu points out is certainly authorial intent. I don't really have the anthropological chops to approach the issue well. I understand the reason behind why the authors would never write that in, but I'm also of a different culture and tend to sympathize more with the German stance on dealing with their nationalist history.
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May 7, 2019 04:52
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Kanos posted:Why is it necessary to balance the morality of the two factions? Basically the entire setup for Zeon in MSG was that they were horrible space Nazis/Imperial Japanese led by a blood-gargling fascist psychopath but the tragedy of war is that sympathetic people can get caught up in horrible causes for all sorts of reasons. The Federation are not portrayed as super great but in terms of relative scale the Federation is an ugly skin rash compared to Zeon's full-body flesh eating virus in terms of horror. I think, beyond the obvious nationalism, it's because World War 2 wasn't "Evil Nazis vs The Good Guys." WW2 was a muddy, hosed up, awful and terrible war where even countries theoretically in it for the 'right' reasons had a huge clusterfuck of reasons behind it, many of which were incredibly awful or because they would have stood aside and let the awful things happen as long as it didn't personally impact them. Japan in particular is particularly prone to thinking about this aspect of it considering they are the country where civilians were hit with a nuclear bomb. (I am not saying this to argue the morality of the situation. I am saying that it is kind of omnipresent.) It's important not to downplay the awfulness of the Axis Powers in WW2 but there also tends to be an uncomfortable narrative of downplaying just how many loving awful things were done by the Allies forces (or pushing them all on Russia) as well, largely because it's very difficult to discuss that without attracting the attention of people who want to use it as an American Civil War style excuse of "See, the OTHER SIDE was bad so maybe Hitler was actually okay???" The Federation is never going to be as awful as Zeon short of the kind of absurd retcons only born from the right-wing nationalism problem Japan is dealing with now, but for them not to be responsible for some significantly awful things on their own end rings pretty false as a war narrative if you're attempting to update Gundam from "literal evil space skull fortress" 70s style. Unfortunately it's kind of hard to balance because adding in awful things on the Federation comes across as Right Wing (and often is) while anything awful added to Zeon just kinda is "Oh yeah, Ghiren probably would do that, wouldn't he?"
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May 7, 2019 05:14
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The evil of the Federation seems to sometimes be of the small scale, petty sort. The Titans got drunk on power and ran wild. The Federation brass decided to personally gently caress Bright Noa and trick him into signing the execution order for his own son. Spacenoids, however, are generally Space Assholes in a very broad sense.
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May 7, 2019 05:22
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chiasaur11 posted:That last bit is basically the whole plot of "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren". 
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May 7, 2019 07:00
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Anshu posted:Why on Earth would a Japanese person want to admit that? Because Tomino is a pacifist who really didn't like Japan's role in the Second World War, which is the entire reason he made a show about a red, white and blue cowboy samurai fighting an unholy hybrid of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in space?
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May 7, 2019 12:37
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Darth Walrus posted:Because Tomino is a pacifist who really didn't like Japan's role in the Second World War, which is the entire reason he made a show about a red, white and blue cowboy samurai fighting an unholy hybrid of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in space? Tomino never wanted the Gundam to have those colours and if you genuinely believe that, you're blaming him of jingoism which seems like the exact kind of ideology someone against Japanese nationalism wouldn't be into. He wanted the Gundam to be grey (check the G-3 Gundam), the colour scheme was forced by the executives who wanted to sell toys and the colours were chosen because they're bright and can attract children easily.
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May 7, 2019 13:41
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The rest is still pretty true of Tomino thought.
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May 7, 2019 13:48
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Yeah, Tomino was part of a wave of leftist anime-makers. I mena G-Reco is pretty in your face about not wanting the SDF to become an army again.
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May 7, 2019 14:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, Tomino was part of a wave of leftist anime-makers. I mena G-Reco is pretty in your face about not wanting the SDF to become an army again. People kept on going "why are they acting like this, nobody acts like this  " about the military factions in G-Reco, expect soldiers have acted like that in World War One. They had no comprehension of what a real war was like and figured they all go be big heroes on an adventure and be home in a month. Reality was somewhat different to expectations. Especially when in G-Reco's case there hasn't been any serious combat for a thousand years.
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May 7, 2019 15:18
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Kanos posted:Why is it necessary to balance the morality of the two factions? Basically the entire setup for Zeon in MSG was that they were horrible space Nazis/Imperial Japanese led by a blood-gargling fascist psychopath but the tragedy of war is that sympathetic people can get caught up in horrible causes for all sorts of reasons. Zeon in general weren't actually portrayed as horrible fascists in 0079 though; just their leaders. One of the main themes of 0079 is that war is used by powerful people who tend to be greedy/selfish to enact their own desires while the people fighting for them are often relatively decent but end up getting ground up the machine of war regardless. Most of the really horrific poo poo about Zeon was added after 0079, and is not actually part of the original show/movies. Which includes the colony drop; kinda. The original show/movie never says "Zeon dropped a single colony, whose impact on Australia killed billions". The opening narration talks about how the fighting between Zeon and the Federation killed half of humanity as we see a shot of the front of a single colony impacting an unnamed city that is reminiscent of New York more than Sydney. At no point is it mentioned who dropped said colony, how many were dropped in total, why they were dropped, where it hit etc. Not even whether the drop was deliberate or just a consequence of the fighting if I recall. In fact, the implication is that multiple colonies hit, given the general state of the setting. It's also implied both that some Zeon soldiers are conscripts (see the guys in "Time, Be Still", who just wanted to go home) and that the general population of Side 3 weren't entirely on board with the Zabis given that when Gihren needs a colony to build a colony cylinder he just turfs everyone out of an existing Side 3 colony, with the soldiers treating the people they're forcefully evacuating like they're beneath them, ignoring their pleas for help with family etc. We also do get some genuine acts of kindness or compassion on the part of Zeon soldiers, like the pilots who gave food to the refugees from White Base looking for Los Angeles (or whatever they called it in show). In the original show, Zeon aren't even all that Nazi-esque and while Degwin talks about Hitler, he's specifically comparing Gihren (and maybe Kycilia) to Hitler; not Zeon as a whole. Newer entries like 0083 lean harder in to the Nazi imagery, but there's not actually a whole lot of it in 0079 itself. Even the aforementioned "Spacenoid Supremacy" stuff is confined to speeches by Gihren and isn't something any Zeon personnel outside him advocates for in any manner during 0079. I like efforts to balance the two because it seems more true to the original intent of 0079 to my mind: to show the leaders of both factions as horrible shitheads who use the people beneath them without regard for their well-being, even if the Zabis (and especially Gihren) are far worse than the Federation in general.
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May 7, 2019 16:13
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