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Yet another reason why Gundam The Plot To etc. was real good, it gave a portrait of Zeon in the last days of the war that didn't glorify Zeon, but it didn't really fully demonized it either despite the entire set-up and point of comparison being to Nazi Germany. Plot to etc. puts together a three dimensional picture of Zeon that portrays it as somewhat sympathetic, but also doesn't exculpate it for the bad poo poo it did and all the real problems it has. The main protagonist is a Zeon dude working for the Zabi government, and basically everyone in the story is sympathetic to the cause of Zeon, but one of the ongoing points of the is that the Principality of Zeon is seriously rotten at its core and that it's been rotten for a long time. Also it's incredibly well written and has fantastic character writing, great art, excellent mobile suit fights, and its smart and clever and the way it engages with UC Gundam's setting and its conceits is like no other Gundam thing I've seen. No seriously, read it. And if you have then read it again. Hell, I'm gonna do that right now.
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May 7, 2019 16:59
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tsob posted:Most of the really horrific poo poo about Zeon was added after 0079, and is not actually part of the original show/movies. Which includes the colony drop; kinda. This is because sometimes, in a visual media, you can do things like 'show, don't tell'. Just because the narrator doesn't explicitly say "Zeon dropped a colony" doesn't excuse Zeon from actually having done horrible poo poo in 0079. That same opening sequence, in which the narrator talks about the war killing half of the population, shows Zakus watching a colony plummet to Earth and hit a major city. It's a very clear visual indication that Zeon dropped the colony on Earth, and it's poo poo like this that led to half the population being killed. You can flash forward to New York as well when White Base is dealing with Garma Zabi. It's one of the major cities of the world reduced to no more than rubble. Do defenders usually grind their cities into rubble when they're being attacked? No - it's war, so it's typically the aggressor that casually bombs the hell out of the city to remove defenders, which is reinforced by the Garma's indiscriminate carpet-bombing when he's searching for White Base in the city. Nobody had to say "Man, I can't believe that Zeon bombed the hell out of this city just to win." It's the same thing as characterization, just on a broader scale. We don't know that Amuro's a tech-obsessed shut-in because the first thing he tells Fraw Bow is "I'm a tech-obsessed shut-in." We know he's one because we first see him working on some sort of electronic device in his underwear completely oblivious to the fact that the Federation's going around the colony giving evacuation orders. It's reinforced by the fact that once he stumbles across the Gundam's manual as he was on a mission to clear the way for the civilians in the shelter to board White Base, he immediately drops his vital task and sets himself down to read the manual. He only stops when the civilians, who haven't heard a drat thing from him, decide to evacuate themselves to White Base and Fraw Bow comes along to basically ask him "what the gently caress, dude?". LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 17:13
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Zeon as a whole becomes more sympathetic after the original series, with later stuff like the Titans and backfill about the Federation being mean to the colonies. Like Luicypher says, the very first thing in MSG is the opening about how Zeon launched a war that wiped out half of humanity, including the colony drop being supervised by Zakus. After that we get into the main story, which starts us off with the horror of a Zeon attack on a largely civilian colony. And there are frequent reminders later, like that episode about the woman confused to find a lake where her hometown should be. And, y'know, the persistent presence of the children orphaned by Zeon. Individual Zeon soliders were sympathetic, which makes sense considering that a lot of the kids watching the show had grandparents who were real life Zeon soldiers. But they're victims of the war Zeon started too. Zeon as a political force is just straight up evil in Mobile Suit Gundam.
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May 7, 2019 17:32
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LuiCypher posted:This is because sometimes, in a visual media, you can do things like 'show, don't tell'. You mean like showing that Zeon soldiers are at least occasionally just decent people who are probably being forced in to service and not entirely happy with their leadership? Or that even the leadership isn't entirely happy with their direction, with Degwin actively plotting behind his sons back to end the war on a more peaceful note? Or that the Federation is pretty callous in their own leadership, so it wouldn't be improbable that the Federation were partly responsible for the death toll?
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May 7, 2019 17:40
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tsob posted:You mean like showing that Zeon soldiers are at least occasionally just decent people who are probably being forced in to service and not entirely happy with their leadership? Or that even the leadership isn't entirely happy with their direction, with Degwin actively plotting behind his sons back to end the war on a more peaceful note? Or that the Federation is pretty callous in their own leadership, so it wouldn't be improbable that the Federation were partly responsible for the death toll? Think about the visual storytelling of the opening narration. The colony is peaceful until it is blown up by Zeon ships. Zeon is very clearly the malevolent aggressor. We are shown Zeon destroying a colony, establishing that Zeon destroys colonies. The colony drops amidst Zeon ships and Zeon MS, like it's a Zeon operation. The colony drops on Earth, and we were just told that Zeon is the cluster of colonies furthest from the earth. Zeon dropped a colony on earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wh0DrRqh-o
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May 7, 2019 17:48
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You seem to be misunderstanding my point in setting out that the colony drop is vaguely defined in 0079: I wasn't saying it wasn't because of Zeon, I was saying the show doesn't really establish much about Zeon and it was only later works that set a lot about them in stone. Including the actual details of the colony drop, which is pretty vague in show and could easily be set in other ways. In the same way, a lot of the details about Zeon are fluid within 0079 and are really only settled upon later, including a lot of the Nazi stuff. Zeon are the undisputed villains of 0079, and their architecture among other things makes that implicit, with evil looking faces on their ship's and buildings and more inhuman designs to their mobile suits; the villainy was mostly confined to their upper echelons in 0079 though, while the majority of soldiers seem more like they have no real investment in the war, beyond being done with it. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 17:57
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Re: "Only the leadership was bad and everyone else was just along for the ride", funnily enough, we made a pretty clear statement in real life that "just following orders" wasn't actually a clear-cut pass for being involved in terrible stuff. Those dudes who participated in the colony attacks would be culpable, for example, regardless of motivation. In 0079, you are correct in that they never have a character turn to the screen and state "Zeon is led by an insane Hitler analogue who wants to purge undesirables from humanity, and thus instigated a series of colony drops that killed billions", but as stated our intro in episode shows Zeon attacking colonies, Zakus watching a colony drop, and the colony is dropping on to Earth onto a dense population center - you know, the Earth, territory owned by the Earth Federation until Zeon invades it. The general world state we see in the show when the White Base arrives from space is Zeon occupying huge swathes of territory by force. It's not hard to draw some conclusions about who's probably culpable for poo poo being like it is even without supplemental materials and later series.
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May 8, 2019 00:47
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I'm pretty sure conscripts aren't prosecuted under those same conventions for following orders, since by and large conscripts are not given choice and failure to comply means death.
tsob fucked around with this message at 01:35 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 01:28
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I saw a whole heck of a lot of upraised clenched fists at the end of not-Hitler's big pivotal Zeon speech. I don't wanna hear about no "just following orders" excuses. They were down with it. Some of them kept up with the Neo Zeon, which is pretty loving tone deaf when the AEUG is right there if you want to combat the Titans. Hell, there was Karaba if you wanted to take the fight to the Federation earth-side. There were options. Some soldiers chose the worst one every single time.
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May 8, 2019 02:05
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Shinjobi posted:I saw a whole heck of a lot of upraised clenched fists at the end of not-Hitler's big pivotal Zeon speech. I don't wanna hear about no "just following orders" excuses. They were down with it. Some of them kept up with the Neo Zeon, which is pretty loving tone deaf when the AEUG is right there if you want to combat the Titans. Hell, there was Karaba if you wanted to take the fight to the Federation earth-side. There were options. Some soldiers chose the worst one every single time. I'd say Zeta is the moment where (the non-monstruous to begin with) Zeon remnants go from "okay, they put their faith into the wrong ideology" to monsters and/or idiots, and it's entirely because of the AEUG. We know part of Zeon joined it, hell, it has several blatantly Zeonic Mobile Suits (up to Amuro of all people using one) and it has the Red Comet of all people, even if he refuses to admit it (that he's blatantly A CHAR, I mean). But no, go join Haman. That's clearly a good idea. I mean, I totally get it, she's very cool, but I don't think she's exactly motivated by the right things.
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May 8, 2019 02:08
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Blaze Dragon posted:I'd say Zeta is the moment where (the non-monstruous to begin with) Zeon remnants go from "okay, they put their faith into the wrong ideology" to monsters and/or idiots, and it's entirely because of the AEUG. We know part of Zeon joined it, hell, it has several blatantly Zeonic Mobile Suits (up to Amuro of all people using one) and it has the Red Comet of all people, even if he refuses to admit it (that he's blatantly A CHAR, I mean). Reminds me of the amazingly bleak undertone to the end of ZZ - both Judau and Haman come to realise that only her brutal plan for the Earth Sphere can bring lasting peace, but it's so horrific that neither of them can bear to go through with it, so Haman commits suicide and Judau flees for Jupiter to get away from it all.
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May 8, 2019 02:34
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Shinjobi posted:I saw a whole heck of a lot of upraised clenched fists at the end of not-Hitler's big pivotal Zeon speech. I don't wanna hear about no "just following orders" excuses. They were down with it. Some of them kept up with the Neo Zeon, which is pretty loving tone deaf when the AEUG is right there if you want to combat the Titans. Hell, there was Karaba if you wanted to take the fight to the Federation earth-side. There were options. Some soldiers chose the worst one every single time. Putting aside that rallies like that tend to be filled with the really hardcore believers anyway, and that people tend to feel or be actively coerced in to celebration during those events (see all the stories of communists or Nazis at rallies afraid to stop clapping, with the first to do so killed, sent to the gulag or whatever), I used the word "some" for a reason. Not all soldiers of Zeon are going to be decent people forced in to it and I was never suggesting they were; that's why I noted that when Gihren forced people out of one of the Side 3 colonies so he could turn it in to a Colony Laser, the soldiers handling the task treated the civilians being turfed out of their home like dogshit; not just ignoring pleas for help, but kicking people while they were down so they could get the task done faster. Of course some Zeon soldiers are evil shitheels. Not all of them are though. Maybe my point would be better expressed that I prefer when Gundam is less one kind of lovely faction versus one really lovely faction, with the two (or more) factions having a more balanced relative morality (ideally all decent, but even all lovely or whatever would he fine too); while 0079 wasn't that ideal, I do feel it came closer than a lot of it's successors and I'm happy to see some details that push towards that ideal in successive works because I think it makes the central conflict more interesting. Darth Walrus posted:Reminds me of the amazingly bleak undertone to the end of ZZ - both Judau and Haman come to realise that only her brutal plan for the Earth Sphere can bring lasting peace, but it's so horrific that neither of them can bear to go through with it, so Haman commits suicide and Judau flees for Jupiter to get away from it all. Haman didn't commit suicide beacuse her plan was too brutal though? She commit suicide because Glemmy's rebellion had basically destroyed her army and she was left with nothing, and couldn't face living in a world where she was just one more peon under someone else's yolk with a normal life like Judau wanted and was trying to get her to accept. If Glemmy hadn't rebelled she'd have marched through rivers of blood and come out laughing, because she wanted to be in control more than anything. Judau didn't agree with her that it was the only way to bring lasting peace either; he just grew disgusted at the actions of adults, who left a tiny group of kids in AEUG to fight with no support because they were too afraid to commit, and were prepared to work with Haman rather than fight her. tsob fucked around with this message at 12:55 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 12:27
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tsob posted:Maybe my point would be better expressed that I prefer when Gundam is less one kind of lovely faction versus one really lovely faction, with the two (or more) factions having a more balanced relative morality (ideally all decent, but even all lovely or whatever would he fine too); while 0079 wasn't that ideal, I do feel it came closer than a lot of it's successors and I'm happy to see some details that push towards that ideal in successive works because I think it makes the central conflict more interesting. I don't feel like 0079 alone does a really good job of balancing the factions in that way, though. There's just almost no meat on the bones of "Hey, the Federation is lovely" in 0079 beyond some individual officers being dickheads - largely because the show pays very little attention to the state of things at a macro level and instead opts to focus on the character level of the White Base - and to really bulk out that take you need to turn to later works or supplemental materials like Stardust Memory or Zeta where the Federation is truly heinous or the Origin which retools the story with some actual emphasis on explaining why it was easy to instigate a revolt in Side 3. The original show is very much written in the vein of the 70s super robot show it is, where the bad guy faction is wrong and evil as hell but some of them have noble and redeeming qualities - a running theme across tons of old super robot shows, actually. Something like Tosho Daimos even has "corrupt Earth military officer who is a dickhead" to contrast with "this one guy on the alien bad guy side is super honorable and refuses to fight the protagonist on anything but equal terms". Oddly I think Gundam SEED spent more effort on a balanced narrative, with both sides effectively trading atrocities back and forth on a constant basis(you nuke our space colony? we'll destroy your entire power infrastructure and thus your entire economy, plunging the world into a death spiral!) until the final battle in Destiny boils down to genocidal superweapon fight. Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:58 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 21:56
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I've said it before but it still amazes me that SEED manages to be a bleaker universe than the multiple post-apocalyptic universes we've gotten both before and after it
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May 8, 2019 22:08
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Was there any side material in SEED that focused on, like, the genetic defects of Coordinators? Because I vaguely recall that at the surface they were basically genetically enhanced superhumans but then they suffer from problems like low birth/fertility rates and other such societal problems that sounded pretty interesting to explore, but I guess that doesn't really make for a mecha story ED: On the PLANT level rather; I recall X Astray plays around with Coordinators again but at a micro, individual level with Prayer and Canard
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May 8, 2019 22:19
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Merilan posted:Was there any side material in SEED that focused on, like, the genetic defects of Coordinators? Because I vaguely recall that at the surface they were basically genetically enhanced superhumans but then they suffer from problems like low birth/fertility rates and other such societal problems that sounded pretty interesting to explore, but I guess that doesn't really make for a mecha story Astray goes into it sometimes. It also goes into the big thing in Kira's backstory that gets overlooked: Coordination is not perfect. No Coordinators turn out exactly perfect and some end up with defects or even worse off than Naturals. Kira is special because he is the only Coordinator to turn out as planned.
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May 8, 2019 23:15
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It's always weird to me that SEED is named for a thing that even characters in the show think is fake. They give it the same backstory as Deikun's Newtype theory that humans living in space will evolve enhanced senses, but the one character that even knows the theory calls it bunk. And that's kind of a shame, since the main conflict of Naturals vs Coordinators could use an ideological shot in the arm. 'Cause guess what, y'all, it's secretly just a way to have humans vs "aliens" without breaking Gundam.
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May 9, 2019 03:08
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tsob posted:Putting aside that rallies like that tend to be filled with the really hardcore believers anyway, and that people tend to feel or be actively coerced in to celebration during those events (see all the stories of communists or Nazis at rallies afraid to stop clapping, with the first to do so killed, sent to the gulag or whatever), I used the word "some" for a reason. Not all soldiers of Zeon are going to be decent people forced in to it and I was never suggesting they were; that's why I noted that when Gihren forced people out of one of the Side 3 colonies so he could turn it in to a Colony Laser, the soldiers handling the task treated the civilians being turfed out of their home like dogshit; not just ignoring pleas for help, but kicking people while they were down so they could get the task done faster. Of course some Zeon soldiers are evil shitheels. Not all of them are though. Haman was still in a workable position at the start of her final duel - Glemmy's rebellion had burned out, and the Federation was led by cowards who could be sent packing with a good bluff - but she deliberately put herself at a handicap when fighting Judau and suicided when she lost because she saw herself as beyond redemption. Her suicide wasn't an act of defiance - her last words are basically an apology to the guy she was fighting, and she goes out with a peaceful, relieved smile.
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May 9, 2019 03:21
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I really like how Thunderbolt handles Zeon Remnants. They aren't still fighting for Zeon because they believe in the great Zeon ideals. They're still fighting because the One Year War took everything from them and they have no other option. They have no home to go back to and the world is so wrecked there's no opportunities for them. Their options are keep fighting for Zeon, maybe do some crimes, maybe join a cult, or just go live in a refugee camp. Which also sets up the rise of the Titans a lot better, imo, than conspiracies and megalomaniacal madmen. The Federation troops want to move on, rebuild, anything, but they can't because the Zeon remnants won't stop fighting. I really hope it gets a third season
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May 9, 2019 03:28
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Gripweed posted:I really like how Thunderbolt handles Zeon Remnants. They aren't still fighting for Zeon because they believe in the great Zeon ideals. They're still fighting because the One Year War took everything from them and they have no other option. They have no home to go back to and the world is so wrecked there's no opportunities for them. Their options are keep fighting for Zeon, maybe do some crimes, maybe join a cult, or just go live in a refugee camp. I wanted to rewatch Stardust recently until I realized I didn't have it. Wasn't Delaz going to do his thing anyway? Jamitov and Bask just saw the opportunity for a power grab out of it and ran hard? Without them, you'd probably still have the Titans, just not quite as nutty without Jamitov and Bask at the helm. My memory tells me that Operation Stardust was something that the conspirators deliberately ignored and obfuscated so that the Federation at large wouldn't be able to stop and thus make the Remnant threat look bigger than it was to justify giving the Titans more authority.
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May 9, 2019 03:52
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HitTheTargets posted:'Cause guess what, y'all, it's secretly just a way to have humans vs "aliens" without breaking Gundam. And then 00 went and did literally that in the movie, and it worked pretty well.
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May 9, 2019 04:19
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Did it though?
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May 9, 2019 04:21
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I thought so. Not to say there were no flaws in it, but I found the basic conflict between the ELS and humanity pretty compelling as a depiction of a first contact scenario between species that were truly alien to one another.
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May 9, 2019 04:40
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Gripweed posted:I really like how Thunderbolt handles Zeon Remnants. They aren't still fighting for Zeon because they believe in the great Zeon ideals. They're still fighting because the One Year War took everything from them and they have no other option. They have no home to go back to and the world is so wrecked there's no opportunities for them. Their options are keep fighting for Zeon, maybe do some crimes, maybe join a cult, or just go live in a refugee camp. Or... they could go home. It's a thing in Johnny Ridden, an offhanded mention that Zeon remnants who didn't cause too much trouble get sent back to the Republic, where their crimes tend to get swept under the rug. Of course, it also shows a pretty big culture divide between Zeon army remnants, who spend their time waiting for someone to start the next war, and Zeon Navy remnants, who spend their time shopping for delicious soups using the money the Federation Navy pays them to look scary at budget meetings.
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May 9, 2019 05:22
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One thing I think is kind of interesting is that Neo Zeon and the Pricipality of Zeon/ Zeon remnants are pretty different in terms of ideology but Neo Zeon’s legitamacy is always rooted in framing themselves with figures and images from the original Zeon. It seems like it has to be a comment on the way conservative movements in Japan like to throw back to “the good old days” of imperial Japan in order to gain support.
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May 9, 2019 09:51
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IMO the 00 movie worked. If you cut out the fight scenes it's p much a movie of 2 species being unable to communicate and literally needing humans to evolve more so learn how to empathize with things so different from them. And even this hyper evolved special human was still P much falling back on violence to get where he needed to be. Also this frontrunner evolved human is a middle eastern child soldier that managed to overcome his trauma and hate. So thats p nice considering <currentyear>.
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May 9, 2019 11:29
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chiasaur11 posted:Or... they could go home. A lot of colonies were destroyed, so the people from those colonies can't go home because their home looks like the Thunderbolt sector.. But even setting that aside, half of Zeon is dead. Not half the army, half the population. It's fair to say that a lot of soldiers don't have anything to go back to. And as I said, I like how Thunderbolt does the Zeon Remnants, so how Johnny Ridden does them is immaterial. Zedd posted:IMO the 00 movie worked. If you cut out the fight scenes it's p much a movie of 2 species being unable to communicate and literally needing humans to evolve more so learn how to empathize with things so different from them. And even this hyper evolved special human was still P much falling back on violence to get where he needed to be. The 00 movie works if you cut out everything but the Maximum Overdrive scene.
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May 9, 2019 12:25
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I thought the "half of their respective populations" was a translation gaffe for the English dub? Half of humanity, sure, but Side 3 was never really hit with targeted bombardment. The federation punched through their defense screen at Solomon and A Baoa Qu and forced a surrender when most of the Zeon forces were killed or fled.
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May 9, 2019 13:35
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Did Zeon have conscripts? I imagine it's easier to lose half your population when you're actively shoving them down the gravity well especially when going up against a far larger enemy. They did manage to take over a decent chunk of earth and Granada on the moon. Gotta have people to hold that territory.
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May 9, 2019 14:15
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A lot of the earth forces were the professional military. It wasn't really until A Baoa Qu that the conscription crisis reared its ugly head when Gelgoogs piloted by twelve year olds were getting sniped by GM aces.
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May 9, 2019 14:30
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Arcsquad12 posted:I thought the "half of their respective populations" was a translation gaffe for the English dub? Half of humanity, sure, but Side 3 was never really hit with targeted bombardment. The federation punched through their defense screen at Solomon and A Baoa Qu and forced a surrender when most of the Zeon forces were killed or fled. Nope, that's there in the original. The narrator explicitly states that "Both Zeon and the Federation" lost half of their populations.
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May 9, 2019 15:51
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I don’t see how Zeon could lose half its population. Was there ever any major fighting in Side 3 at any point of the war?
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May 9, 2019 16:19
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In this case "Zeon" could include anyone that joined their cause from outside Side 3. edit: or even they just made so many people soldiers that the losses equalled half the population?
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May 9, 2019 17:40
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No one said that the Federation killed half of Zeon's population. 
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May 9, 2019 17:43
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EthanSteele posted:In this case "Zeon" could include anyone that joined their cause from outside Side 3. There's also Revil's speech in The Origin, where he's saying that Zeon is out of soldiers. Half of Zeon's population could be a Tuesday for the Federation. Operation British and Loum may very well have consumed most of Zeon's population, but given that the Earth Federation is stuck at the bottom of a gravity well, and that Zeon at this point has superior technology, a reasonable read on the situation is: Zeon wiped out the Federation's ability to project power in space at great cost. Their technological advantages with their mobile suits allowed them to continue fighting, and even take territory on Earth. Eventually, though, the tech gap closes (specifically in September and October of 0079) and the Federation pushes Zeon to the margins on Earth and goes into space to dunk them at Solomon. Again, Zeon has superweapons tech, so they are able to take the Federation fleet down to parity again before A Boa Qu using the colony laser, but at this point the GM outclasses everything but the Gelgoog and Zeon REALLY doesn't have any trained fightmans left.
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May 9, 2019 18:08
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In the the extended materials at least not a lot of people outside of side 3 join up with Zeon. All of the colonies either come out as neutral or declare for the federation. It’s Zeon retributive attack’s in these colonies that account for much of the death toll of the war. At least that’s how some places have it. Canon is funky in this series.
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May 9, 2019 18:11
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If I remember right, the Antarctic Treaty forbids nuclear attacks in addition to colony drops at least partially because the Federation had enough nukes to destroy every colony in Side 3. Losing half their population could mean that some of those nukes were used.
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May 9, 2019 19:03
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There's also the dispute of the actual death toll. Unicorn tends to pin the total casualties of the OYW around 2 billion if Riddhe is to be believed. I'd consider that a conservative estimate and instead place it closer to 5 billion, accounting for both the earth and the sides. At least three sides, 2, 4, and 5, were utterly destroyed in the opening weeks of the war, side 1 was heavily damaged, side 6 was mostly spared save for skirmishes in the final weeks, and 7 was a backwater. If most people were living offworld that's got to be at least in the hundreds of millions murdered.
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May 9, 2019 19:57
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Did The Origin ever put out numbers for the populations of the Sides? Because that is something I have no idea how to estimate & I'd love to know it.
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May 9, 2019 20:49
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The wiki places the total offworld population at 9 billion out of a total of 11 billion by UC50. I can't find a source to corroborate that, but I'm still looking.
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May 9, 2019 20:56
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