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Solaris 2.0 posted:With that said, how is Florida and Solar Power? With a nickname like “Sunshine” state you would think they had a thriving solar industry. Except politicians like money from lobbyists too much: http://www.digitaljournal.com/business/op-ed-florida-residents-not-allowed-to-use-solar-power-after-hurricane/article/502947 quote:The bottom line on HB 1351 is that Floridians are "legally required" to power their solar installations down when the power goes down in their area. On top of this, FPL is allowed to disconnect residents' panels from their electricity grids without warning, FPL customers are not permitted to keep their own panels going. State rules require customers to install a switch so their solar systems can be disconnected from FPL’s systems during a power outage. I'm not even from the US and this poo poo gets my blood boiling. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 18:45 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 18:42
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The disconnect during an outage is more of a safety issue - if a guy working on a powerline on the street disconnects it from the grid only to discover that the line is now powered from a different source. Especially bad when the worker tests it when it's cloudy and sees no voltage. Sun comes out and then he gets zapped as a lot of panels then generate full power.
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May 11, 2019 18:52
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Yeah pretty much. There hasn't been a good way developed for workers to work on the lines when they could potentially be getting powered from distributed sources. Ideally there'd be a system set up that would allow a house to isolate itself from the network at will (and capable of signalling that to the network operators), but right now there's definite safety complaints about lines getting charged without warning.
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May 11, 2019 19:09
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Also, regarding the red tide: Florida's issues with that kind of thing are mainly caused by farm runoff, especially from the huge sugarcane plantations, and the sugar industry in Florida is more powerful in Tallahassee than the tourism industry most of the time. Big agriculture is serious loving business in Florida despite not being something out-of-staters seem to associate with the state. The tourism industry is what's kept the government at arm's length from the oil industry, at least.
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May 12, 2019 00:40
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Kaal posted:Yeah pretty much. There hasn't been a good way developed for workers to work on the lines when they could potentially be getting powered from distributed sources. Ideally there'd be a system set up that would allow a house to isolate itself from the network at will (and capable of signalling that to the network operators), but right now there's definite safety complaints about lines getting charged without warning. I'm not an electrician or engineer, but can't you basically just build a circuit breaker in reverse? Instead of a current spike magnetically pulling a switch open, have the expected current keep the switch closed. If the current is lost, it self isolates. What am I missing? Edit: Google autocorrect inserted magically in place of magnetically. loving magnets: how do they work?! Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 05:16 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 00:50
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm not an electrician or engineer, but can't you basically just build a circuit breaker in reverse? Instead of a current spike magically pulling a switch open, have the expected current keep the switch closed. If the current is lost, it self isolates. What am I missing? The profit motive
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May 12, 2019 01:11
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm not an electrician or engineer, but can't you basically just build a circuit breaker in reverse? Instead of a current spike magically pulling a switch open, have the expected current keep the switch closed. If the current is lost, it self isolates. What am I missing? Bel Shazar said it best. This is a problem that has been solved for a long time, today with PLC (programmable logic controllers) and in the olden days with relay logic: http://www.contactandcoil.com/patterns-of-ladder-logic-programming/startstop-circuit/
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May 12, 2019 01:29
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Cythereal posted:Also, regarding the red tide: Florida's issues with that kind of thing are mainly caused by farm runoff, especially from the huge sugarcane plantations, and the sugar industry in Florida is more powerful in Tallahassee than the tourism industry most of the time. Big agriculture is serious loving business in Florida despite not being something out-of-staters seem to associate with the state. Oh I used to live in the state and knew this quite well. At some point however it will come to a head and the state will need to decide. Placate the Sugar industry at all cost, or try and protect the tourist/fishing industry.
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May 12, 2019 02:50
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Oh I used to live in the state and knew this quite well. At some point however it will come to a head and the state will need to decide. Placate the Sugar industry at all cost, or try and protect the tourist/fishing industry. Will that be before or after Florida gets a whole ton of new, undeveloped coastline?
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May 12, 2019 07:01
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Cythereal posted:Also, regarding the red tide: Florida's issues with that kind of thing are mainly caused by farm runoff, especially from the huge sugarcane plantations, and the sugar industry in Florida is more powerful in Tallahassee than the tourism industry most of the time. Big agriculture is serious loving business in Florida despite not being something out-of-staters seem to associate with the state. We have a similar problem in Australia. The Great Barrier Reef is dying. Hell, most of it is already dead. The government is currently trying to built a port for a coal mine which will run straight through one of the remaining healthy sections. Tourism creates vastly more jobs and economic benefits, but tourism operators are mostly just thousands of small businesses. Coal is a megalith which has practised the art of the bribing politicians for centuries.
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May 12, 2019 14:05
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm not an electrician or engineer, but can't you basically just build a circuit breaker in reverse? Instead of a current spike magnetically pulling a switch open, have the expected current keep the switch closed. If the current is lost, it self isolates. What am I missing? Your problem is that the grid runs on alternating current. It falls to 0 and then reverses direction sixty times a second. If you introduce the necessary timing elements to allow it to function, then you're also making it unsafe for people working on the grid in the local area. osker posted:Bel Shazar said it best. This is a problem that has been solved for a long time, today with PLC (programmable logic controllers) and in the olden days with relay logic: What you linked to is basically what exists now and is what you're complaining about. The break occurs and the process shuts down and doesn't start up again for the sake of safety. Solar and wind power have one extremely significant hurdle because by necessity they have to output DC but the grid for the sake of transmission has to be AC (wind actually starts at AC but it's hugely variable so it's converted to DC). So what they do is take this DC output and then through the use of some electronic switches turn the DC into a signal close enough to the AC of the grid that it doesn't cause problems. So far so good, but the grid works because physics say that power in has to equal power out and when power out increases the generators have to work a little bit harder . Wind and solar don't have that feedback, they're digital instead of analog and the switches keep opening and closing. So when something goes wrong on the grid side, they can cheerfully continue chugging away unless someone has done some safety disconnects. This is especially bad when there's a disconnect from major sources (what Florida is trying to do) or when the frequency changes (I got to see the aftermath of some frequency mismatches first hand, the pooling metal was still hot). A good example of this happened in Australia a few years ago. NSW lost power pretty much entirely because when some grid damage occurred a major wind farm didn't respond to the change in conditions and then took down everything else by destabilizing the entire system. It even came about a half second from taking the entire country's grid but a safety interlock between states kicked in at the last moment.
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May 12, 2019 16:21
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Mustached Demon posted:Will that be before or after Florida gets a whole ton of new, undeveloped coastline? Funny you mentioned that, they're about to make the sprawl even worse. https://twitter.com/StrongTowns/status/1123235562218041344?s=09
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May 12, 2019 16:22
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Random Stranger posted:Your problem is that the grid runs on alternating current. It falls to 0 and then reverses direction sixty times a second. If you introduce the necessary timing elements to allow it to function, then you're also making it unsafe for people working on the grid in the local area. This is nonsense. You can perfectly well use circuit breakers on AC power. I can't even parse what your description is supposed to mean. quote:Solar and wind power have one extremely significant hurdle because by necessity they have to output DC but the grid for the sake of transmission has to be AC (wind actually starts at AC but it's hugely variable so it's converted to DC). I could go either way on this one. Transmission loses are reduced by running high voltage and low current to reduce joule heating, AC is used because transformers work a treat at converting between voltage/current levels for AC power, but not for DC power (they are way more complicated at high power). Those transformers are why power stations hum. But transmission losses (at fixed power) are no different for AC or DC. quote:So what they do is take this DC output and then through the use of some electronic switches turn the DC into a signal close enough to the AC of the grid that it doesn't cause problems. So far so good, but the grid works because physics say that power in has to equal power out and when power out increases the generators have to work a little bit harder . This is fine, maybe? Power out doesn't "increase" the required power at the load (everyone's houses and poo poo) does. When the power draw exceeds the power produced some people don't get enough and incandescent lights dim among a great many other things. That is why this situation is called a "brownout." quote:Wind and solar don't have that feedback, they're digital instead of analog and the switches keep opening and closing. So when something goes wrong on the grid side, they can cheerfully continue chugging away unless someone has done some safety disconnects. This is nonsense. All power sources have to be turned up and down as power usage varies. This is not a problem unique to wind/solar and it has nothing to do with wind/solar being "digital," a label which as far as I can tell is meaningless when used the way that you have used it. quote:This is especially bad when there's a disconnect from major sources (what Florida is trying to do) or when the frequency changes (I got to see the aftermath of some frequency mismatches first hand, the pooling metal was still hot). An impedance mismatch generally results in less power being deposited in the load which then "reflects" back to source or dissipates along the transmission line. It is generally undesirable, yes.
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May 12, 2019 19:31
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MickeyFinn posted:This is nonsense. You can perfectly well use circuit breakers on AC power. I can't even parse what your description is supposed to mean. Blue Footed Booby posted:Instead of a current spike magnetically pulling a switch open, have the expected current keep the switch closed. If the current is lost, it self isolates. They want the circuit breaker to trip at zero current instead of over current. Since the system goes to zero all the time, then it would trip all the time. And if you tried to have it so that it would trip if there was an extended zero current, then you're creating a safety hazard to people working on the system since it would allow people to inject power into the system for a short period before it turns off again. MickeyFinn posted:This is fine, maybe? Power out doesn't "increase" the required power at the load (everyone's houses and poo poo) does. When the power draw exceeds the power produced some people don't get enough and incandescent lights dim among a great many other things. That is why this situation is called a "brownout." For a standard generator, increased power consumption increase the torque at the generator which is then compensated for to prevent the brown outs. Power electronics do not work that way because they're operating on digital switching instead of the analog systems of transformers and generator windings. You cannot make solar panels have to work slightly harder in response to an increase in load. You cannot do this with wind power after it has passed through the rectifier in the DC link. There is a delay in the digital switching controls for solar and wind that does not exist in the analog systems of a traditional turbine that prevents those systems from responding instantaneously to the grid.
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May 12, 2019 20:10
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I can't speak to the electrical engineering aspect of solar power but I'd guess that solar panels don't really stand up to hurricanes well.
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May 13, 2019 06:36
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I can't speak to the electrical engineering aspect of solar power but I'd guess that solar panels don't really stand up to hurricanes well. generally if you've lost your panels your roof is gone anyways; my neighbors had about half a dozen panels for heating their pool that survived 15ish years of hurricanes
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May 13, 2019 06:53
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I can't speak to the electrical engineering aspect of solar power but I'd guess that solar panels don't really stand up to hurricanes well. You would be quite wrong.
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May 13, 2019 13:57
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I wonder what causes more solar panels to get thrown off while the roof stays intact - bad weather, or rear end in a top hat conservatives taking them off as a 'gently caress you' to environmentalists.
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May 13, 2019 14:04
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Party Plane Jones posted:generally if you've lost your panels your roof is gone anyways; my neighbors had about half a dozen panels for heating their pool that survived 15ish years of hurricanes Generally, the pool panels are these basically rubber mats that are VERY durable but don't generate anywhere near enough electricity for your actual house usage
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May 13, 2019 14:29
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The Bloop posted:Generally, the pool panels are these basically rubber mats that are VERY durable but don't generate anywhere near enough electricity for your actual house usage Do they actually generate electricity? I had some neighbors 30-ish years ago that had panels on their roof for some kind of water heating (either pool or home, I wasn't sure) and they basically looked like black pipes zigzagging back and forth through a glass-covered box. And a few years ago I was looking at pool accessories, and there was a similar thing that was basically a clear plastic dome with black pool filter tubing coiled inside that would just heat up in the sun as opposed to using any electricity.
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May 13, 2019 15:15
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My parents have had solar pool heating for about 20 years, and it's just a series of coiled black tubes on the rooof that heats the water by just getting hot in the sun. The pool heater did take off a chunk of the roof when a monsoon storm rolled through shortly after it was installed (the installers messed up somehow), but after it was repaired/installed properly, it's been through some pretty serious winds and hasn't done anything to the roof.
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May 13, 2019 16:25
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Your neighbor's piss poor plywood job, bolted to the window trim is more likely to cause more damage during a hurricane than solar panels that are up to code. And pool solar panels are just black PVC on your roof that heats up, no electricity is generated. They work okay.
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May 13, 2019 20:29
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Zipperelli. posted:You would be quite wrong. Well, I learned something. I just assumed they were vulnerable to flying debris.
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May 14, 2019 03:04
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Here's a chaser for that USA Today article.quote:The dark reason so many millennials are miserable and broke I can't believe articles like this still exist in 2019, even on shitholes like MarketWatch.
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May 14, 2019 07:03
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There are going to be articles about "millenials" in 2100 aren't there
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May 14, 2019 07:08
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rip america, killed by millennials inventing keeping up with the joneses
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May 14, 2019 07:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are going to be articles about "millenials" in 2100 aren't there I think you're optimistic in assuming there will be articles in 2100.
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May 14, 2019 07:23
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pseudorandom name posted:I think you're optimistic in assuming there will be articles in 2100. Didn't say who would be reading them!
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May 14, 2019 07:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Didn't say who would be reading them! "Do the sentient cockroaches really read this stuff, dad?" "We don't know what they do besides eat people who stop working. So keep at it."
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May 14, 2019 07:45
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A whole 36 minutes...ruining America's Number.
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May 14, 2019 11:46
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Paradoxish posted:Here's a chaser for that USA Today article. Do articles like this never even bother to look at what previous generations did, cause this is just sad.
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May 14, 2019 13:22
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Paradoxish posted:Here's a chaser for that USA Today article. Hold the phones, millennials make impulse buys based on web advertising.
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May 14, 2019 23:36
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Paradoxish posted:Here's a chaser for that USA Today article. The sample sizes of the studies quoted seem rather small. Sounds like they're saying there's a correlation between the time spent on social media and buying things based on ads from social media. No poo poo. That's how advertising works. I wonder if any consideration is given to how often purchasing decisions are made based on advertisement in other forms of media or recreation.
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May 15, 2019 00:25
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This seems like a pretty big deal-quote:WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump is expected to sign an executive order this week barring U.S. companies from using telecommunications equipment made by firms posing a national security risk, paving the way for a ban on doing business with China’s Huawei, three U.S. officials familiar with the plan told Reuters. China already appealed to the WTO regarding the tariff hikes, citing nationalism. The tariffs are one thing, but this is on a whole new level. The US is barring its citizens from using a foreign technology in retaliation for the state of the current US-China trade war. That's pretty drat inciting.
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May 15, 2019 00:36
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LiterallyAnything posted:This seems like a pretty big deal- Isn't Huawei legitimately really shady, or am I misinformed?
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May 15, 2019 00:53
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PerniciousKnid posted:Isn't Huawei legitimately really shady, or am I misinformed? From what I've heard they're quite shady and their 5G technology isn't very good anyway. Having said that, this is TRUMP we're dealing with, so any possible upsides to his tantrums are purely accidental.
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May 15, 2019 00:57
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PerniciousKnid posted:Isn't Huawei legitimately really shady, or am I misinformed? more shoddy than shady tbh
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May 15, 2019 01:13
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Fuligin posted:more shoddy than shady tbh No this is legit, military's been warning them about their potential 5G security issues for years. Then after they found the tiny little microchips on motherboards all that doomsaying took on new urgency.
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May 15, 2019 01:23
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Oracle posted:No this is legit, military's been warning them about their potential 5G security issues for years. Then after they found the tiny little microchips on motherboards all that doomsaying took on new urgency. huawei's tech has been under constant evaluation by a special MI6 force of cyber security experts for a number of years, and their assessment has consistently been that huawei's chips are vulnerable because huawei kind of sucks at making them and refuses to implement better practices, not because their riddled with secret backdoors n poo poo e; this is a weird run on sentence and i'm not changing it
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May 15, 2019 01:30
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Fuligin posted:huawei's tech has been under constant evaluation by a special MI6 force of cyber security experts for a number of years, and their assessment has consistently been that huawei's chips are vulnerable because huawei kind of sucks at making them and refuses to implement better practices, not because their riddled with secret backdoors n poo poo I dunno it reminds of how everyone used to think Microsoft just sucked then we found out the backdoors were mandated by intelligence agencies.
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May 15, 2019 01:42
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