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Whole lotta people not willing to accept that they live in a bad society and loads of people get hosed over unfairly, and gotta come up with some serious mental gymnasitcs to suggest why that's not true, or in OP's case, why they're clearly not part of the problem.
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May 15, 2019 21:24
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:People really underestimate the role of luck in their own success and hate to admit that it was anything other than their own effort that got them wherever they were. But yes, a number of decisions ( many of them made as a child or by their parents! ) can completely alter or screw up someone's life. Researchers had people play games of monopoly, TOLD them it was rigged, and TOLD the person who it was rigged for that they would win. Really obvious stuff like 2x the money when passing Go and collecting rents, more than 2 dice to use to move with, and so on. The people who won still said afterwards that they thought it was nonetheless a result of their own skill and strategy. In a game that is pretty much entirely luck of the dice roll to begin with even without the rigging. quote:According to Piff, the goal here was to study how “a privileged player in a rigged game behaves”. After just fifteen minutes of play for each game, the researchers began noticing “dramatic” behavioral changes in the advantaged players…observed changes ranged from louder, more forceful movement of their game piece (and other “displays of power”) to seemingly trivial things like eating more pretzels. People are fuckin dumb lol OwlFancier posted:Whole lotta people not willing to accept that they live in a bad society and loads of people get hosed over unfairly, and gotta come up with some serious mental gymnasitcs to suggest why that's not true, or in OP's case, why they're clearly not part of the problem. Also this.
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May 15, 2019 21:41
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I'm sure she's just not trying hard enough. In general this whole line of argument from the right is batshit anyway. Their argument is fundamentally one of "well, the bottom rungs of society suck but everyone can move out of there at some point." Everyone gets bogged down on arguing about whether such mobility is really possible and skips past the bit where hey, maybe the bottom rung of society doesn't deserve to live like such poo poo. Like sure dude haha they're just a burger flipper - do you not think society needs line cooks??? Do you cook 100% of your own food? Do you want sick people with no insurance and who can't afford to miss even a day of work handling your food? Why should cooks live in ratholes with no money? The answer to this is usually "well, they're just jobs meant for teens as a starting point" while fully ignoring that this is obviously not the case and that many ADULTS with FAMILIES are having to work two of these jobs just to get bills paid let alone live any kind of decent standard of life. I mention "veil of ignorance" and get baffled scared looks. People are loving braindead idiots is all idk what to even say anymore. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 21:48
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wateroverfire posted:That sucks? But really not my fault and not in my power to fix. Yeah, that's fair no one can blame you for trying to scrape by as middle management in a rigged game. wateroverfire posted:I'm the owner not an HR person. I have to care about whether who I hire can do the job well. =( Oh, so actually it's exactly your fault and in your power to fix.
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May 15, 2019 21:57
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Moridin920 posted:Researchers had people play games of monopoly, TOLD them it was rigged, and TOLD the person who it was rigged for that they would win. Really obvious stuff like 2x the money when passing Go and collecting rents, more than 2 dice to use to move with, and so on. What's funny about this is that Monopoly is already set up to teach you this lesson without the obvious rigging like giving someone multipliers. The basic strategy for the game is pretty solvable (it's more or less "buy anything you land on" with a few exceptions), and from there it comes down to one person having the luck to have landed on the right properties and a slow slog of everyone trying to pretend that the lucky person hasn't already won the game. It's already a game more or less designed to show you why capitalism isn't fair because some people essentially start with an advantage based on their circumstances, you don't even really need to change anything. Adding a blatant cheat code for one player should be like lighting up the message in big neon lights.
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May 15, 2019 21:58
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Wasn't monopoly originally designed with extra rules that were supposed to take it beyond being accumulation simulator?
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May 15, 2019 22:03
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Bicyclops posted:What's funny about this is that Monopoly is already set up to teach you this lesson without the obvious rigging like giving someone multipliers. The basic strategy for the game is pretty solvable (it's more or less "buy anything you land on" with a few exceptions) I never played monopoly and I never thought about it and somehow it instantly make sense
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May 15, 2019 22:05
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quote:Told you once you're never gonna win the race
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May 15, 2019 22:17
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Typo posted:I never played monopoly and I never thought about it and somehow it instantly make sense I was a horrible person for awhile whose primary motivation while playing board games with people was using them to get insight into their psyche and Monopoly is top tier for this, right up there with Risk and Mafia.
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May 15, 2019 22:25
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Bicyclops posted:I was a horrible person for awhile whose primary motivation while playing board games with people was using them to get insight into their psyche and Monopoly is top tier for this, right up there with Risk and Mafia.
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May 15, 2019 22:33
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Typo posted:I never played monopoly and I never thought about it and somehow it instantly make sense Additional rules: just perma-mortgage Baltic/Mediterranean/Utilities, go for the Orange and Pink properties, buy all the houses, and never turn them into hotels until you have enough cash to re-buy the houses. No, my family wont play Monopoly with me anymore, why do you ask?
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May 15, 2019 22:40
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Volkerball posted:Grow up. You of all people telling others to grow up is incredible lack of awareness
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May 15, 2019 22:57
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Mineaiki posted:I don’t completely disagree with you, but I also want to point out that even if we tracked exactly how many people made federal and state minimum wage, that does not count people making ¢10 over minimum, which is common at a lot of “minimum wage” jobs. Or ¢20 or ¢30 or whatever. Yeah, it's a difficult thing to discuss, because peoples perception of what constitutes a living wage is based on the costs of living, when the largest costs of living for millennials are things that come from very predatory markets in major need of reform, like the student loan industry and healthcare. With the exception of single parents and people in the highest cost of living cities in the country, you could live comfortably on something like $14 an hour or less, and set yourself up for a good retirement. But one bad break with health or student loans can gently caress your whole life up. But I think that's less related to wage and more a testament to the importance of fundamental change to how we deal with secondary education and medical expenses. Rent is a trickier one because population rises are inherently going to change demand in urban areas and the natural course of that dynamic is for people to get priced out of their own neighborhoods, which is pretty hosed, but I personally don't know how you address that. FactsAreUseless posted:You aren't in a position to tell anyone this. You got caught talking out your rear end again and called out on it, which is how you always talk. Don't tell people to "grow up" when you're not a drat adult yourself. Nope. I posted the statistic for the number of Americans working at the federal minimum wage, which was right. Somebody added an important clarification about state vs federal minimum wage that I hadn't considered, and we discussed that, but I wasn't talking out of my rear end whatsoever. Don't try to play the adult in the room when you're rushing to the defense of the "you put money in your 401k? up against the wall with you! oh and also, workers of the world unite" marxoteen. Party Plane Jones posted:These are big words coming from an E-1 Know your audience, imo. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 23:26
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Bicyclops posted:What's funny about this is that Monopoly is already set up to teach you this lesson without the obvious rigging like giving someone multipliers. The basic strategy for the game is pretty solvable (it's more or less "buy anything you land on" with a few exceptions), and from there it comes down to one person having the luck to have landed on the right properties and a slow slog of everyone trying to pretend that the lucky person hasn't already won the game. It's already a game more or less designed to show you why capitalism isn't fair because some people essentially start with an advantage based on their circumstances, you don't even really need to change anything. Fun fact! Monopoly was based on The Landlord Game, which was designed to demonstrate how terrible the system is.
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May 15, 2019 23:31
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While we're still on the subject of hard work: On average, I get around 32-36 hours a week. I've worked closer to 50 before, but only in dire emergencies because my employer hates paying OT. Anyways, my company is going through a restructuring, and part of that is re-arranging how all our departments fit together, how hours are distributed, etc. I am the only one in my department. I don't have enough time to do my job effectively, but if I cheat and race like a bastard, I can get it done more often than not. The first week of last month, I was scheduled four days. Alright, that happens. We ran out of hours. Whatever. The second week, I hit four days again. The third week I had three days. Three. By this point I was pissed, and point blank asked, "what the hell?" Turns out my department is being transferred to the jurisdiction of another department, but because of buerucracy, it took weeks to accomplish this. In the mean time, it was just... in limbo. Corporate allotted basically zero hours, and all my shifts were assembled patchwork out of leftovers. I lost hundreds, hundreds of dollars in income, for no reason, with no warning. I make almost three dollars above minimum wage though, it's fine. Oh, wait, no- actually making above minimum wage doesn't matter when companies have slashed full-time positions to the bone and routinely schedule people barely enough hours to get by ( at best ).
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May 15, 2019 23:31
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Volkerball posted:you could live comfortably on something like $14 an hour or less, and set yourself up for a good retirement. But one bad break with health or student loans can gently caress your whole life up. Risible, but ok Volkerball posted:Rent is a trickier one because population rises are inherently going to change demand in urban areas and the natural course of that dynamic is for people to get priced out of their own neighborhoods, which is pretty hosed, but I personally don't know how you address that. It's called build a fuckload of public housing, something that crowded countries like Singapore have employed to great effect. If white Americans weren't such huge bigots with a fear of living around nonwhites it would be completely viable in the US. This is a mostly empty country, there should be no excuse for the state to not provide public housing for everyone.
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May 15, 2019 23:32
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Volkerball posted:"you put money in your 401k? up against the wall with you! oh and also, workers of the world unite" marxoteen. Hey, don't put words in my mouth, I never called for violence against you, I said you should give me your investments so I could afford to "grow up" as you put it. Got fired because you were sick two days in a row? Just grow up! Bing Bong Bing, so simple! And I'm 34, you loving arrogant prick.
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May 15, 2019 23:37
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:It's called build a fuckload of public housing, something that crowded countries like Singapore have employed to great effect. If white Americans weren't such huge bigots with a fear of living around nonwhites it would be completely viable in the US. This is a mostly empty country, there should be no excuse for the state to not provide public housing for everyone. the problem is that without a firm legal basis for the necessity of state-owned housing ("show me where it says that in the constitution") federal level support, which is critical to provide sufficient funding, is politically volatile. public housing has ranged from directly owned and constructed by the federal government to various bastard public-private incentiveships and voucher systems. here is a good summary http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/von_hoffman_to_preserve_affordable_housing_april16.pdf other nations generally don't have these weird codified hangups about what the national government is/is not allowed to do, which is a big obstacle because without a broad level of financial support you end up with little to no housing, as when local governments are committed to public housing they rarely have the resources necessary to adequately meet demand
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May 16, 2019 00:18
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, it's a difficult thing to discuss, because peoples perception of what constitutes a living wage is based on the costs of living, when the largest costs of living for millennials are things that come from very predatory markets in major need of reform, like the student loan industry and healthcare. With the exception of single parents and people in the highest cost of living cities in the country, you could live comfortably on something like $14 an hour or less, and set yourself up for a good retirement. But one bad break with health or student loans can gently caress your whole life up. But I think that's less related to wage and more a testament to the importance of fundamental change to how we deal with secondary education and medical expenses. Rent is a trickier one because population rises are inherently going to change demand in urban areas and the natural course of that dynamic is for people to get priced out of their own neighborhoods, which is pretty hosed, but I personally don't know how you address that.
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May 16, 2019 00:30
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, it's a difficult thing to discuss, because peoples perception of what constitutes a living wage is based on the costs of living, when the largest costs of living for millennials are things that come from very predatory markets in major need of reform, like the student loan industry and healthcare. With the exception of single parents and people in the highest cost of living cities in the country, you could live comfortably on something like $14 an hour or less, and set yourself up for a good retirement. But one bad break with health or student loans can gently caress your whole life up. But I think that's less related to wage and more a testament to the importance of fundamental change to how we deal with secondary education and medical expenses. Rent is a trickier one because population rises are inherently going to change demand in urban areas and the natural course of that dynamic is for people to get priced out of their own neighborhoods, which is pretty hosed, but I personally don't know how you address that. $14 an hour, 40 hours a week, is about $30k before tax. Why am I bringing this up? Well...  And of course, many people don't get full-time wages. It's possible to live on less than $14 an hour, but it's hardly comfortable. Even if you think that map is too vague, we can easily do the math ourselves. $14 an hour is about $2260 a month, which puts the affordable rent level (30% of your income) at $670. That puts rents in remote, semi-rural jobless shitholes just barely below the line of unaffordability. Except that because they're remote, semi-rural jobless shitholes, $14 an hour is considered incredible wealth there, and low-wage workers make half that.
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May 16, 2019 00:59
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is a mostly empty country, there should be no excuse for the state to not provide public housing for everyone. If the US launched a public housing program tomorrow, I guarantee there are a number of factors that would lead to it being built not anywhere... useful, but outside of towns, or in the middle of nowhere.There's a dead-rear end shopping center in the middle of my town, barely being used. They could tear up the whole drat thing, put in some modestly sized apartment buildings, and it would be perfect. Right on a major road. Access to government services, within walking distance of multiple grocery stores, etc. It'll never happen. We've got buildings and lots and other spaces that just sit vacant for years, and when some new business decides to come to town, they buy up cheap land and build on the fringes. My garbage town is a Stretch Armstrong doll filled with rotten bananas. We've built one stretch of affordable housing in the past twenty years. Lots of grousing, lots of whining about it being "HUD housing" and "section eight". What new houses have gone up are all cookie-cutter developments to service the folks who commute to the regional hospital, and other jobs in richer towns people drive to. The cheapest of these are townhouses that start off at a hair under 220k. Most are in excess of 300k. Old houses stand vacant because many owners don't want to rent, they want to sell- but the people who are buying houses are buying the new ones, while the old ones stand vacant. The people who are building here have no incentive to build apartment buildings, or something a slob with a job can afford. The people who rent have no incentive to lower rates, because the lack of affordable housing means they can just keep charging more and more- and what the gently caress are you going to do? Disrupt the housing industry by living in the trunk of your car? Those that can solve the problem, won't. Those that suffer because of it, can't. Eventually, all the open land around my town is going to get swallowed up by cul-de-sac shitholes and shopping plazas, and there won't even be anything to build on.
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May 16, 2019 01:39
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So sticking with the general hiring practices thing, I recently had an interview with the most bizzare question I've ever been asked. 'If our company <did a crime> knowingly for profit would you as <position in charge of preventing that crime> report it to authorities?' I had to give a long 'I can see how these situations pop up, and why someone focused on another metric/day to day operations could make that choice. In my experience explaining the risk they're taking or going above them to their supervisors and if need be corporate usually solves the problem.' They still pressed for a direct answer, and my response was 'If the risk is great enough to push into mandatory reporting requirements, and I went all the way up the chain of command -I would have to report it, yes. The extra liability of getting caught hiding it outweighs any benefit from sweeping it under the rug" In a seperate interview HR also tried negging me/seeing how I'd react to a casual 'Oh if you had a consulting firm auditing your work quarterly, that means they were really the ones doing your job, right?' Lol it's gonna rule if I don't get a job because I didn't say I'd risk jail time and losing licenses during interviews.
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May 16, 2019 02:13
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Bobbie Wickham posted:Fun fact! Monopoly was based on The Landlord Game, which was designed to demonstrate how terrible the system is. Yup! The reason Monopoly is a terrible game is that it's a mass-produced version of a troll game designed to demonstrate how oppressive capitalism is.
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May 16, 2019 03:05
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, it's a difficult thing to discuss, because peoples perception of what constitutes a living wage is based on the costs of living, when the largest costs of living for millennials are things that come from very predatory markets in major need of reform, like the student loan industry and healthcare. With the exception of single parents and people in the highest cost of living cities in the country, you could live comfortably on something like $14 an hour or less, and set yourself up for a good retirement. But one bad break with health or student loans can gently caress your whole life up. But I think that's less related to wage and more a testament to the importance of fundamental change to how we deal with secondary education and medical expenses. Rent is a trickier one because population rises are inherently going to change demand in urban areas and the natural course of that dynamic is for people to get priced out of their own neighborhoods, which is pretty hosed, but I personally don't know how you address that. Yes, you've nailed it. $14/hour would be a livable wage except for all the reasons that it isn't, and those reasons amount to "expenses are too high for $14/hour to be livable." Take home, bi-weekly pay for someone making $14/hour and working full-time is going to be south of $900. That's less than $2,000/month. You have to live literally in the middle of nowhere for ~$1800/month to be anywhere near comfortable. You really shouldn't be telling people to grow up when you have a five year old's conception of personal finance.
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May 16, 2019 03:27
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I make $22/hr in San Diego county and I can barely pay my bills let alone save any kind of money up. My rent is $1300/mo and that's considered reasonable so it's not like I'd save a ton moving somewhere cheaper but an extra hour away from my job. Utilities, insurance, copays on prescriptions, gas, food... Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 05:44 on May 16, 2019 |
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May 16, 2019 05:38
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Moridin920 posted:I make $22/hr in San Diego county and I can barely pay my bills let alone save any kind of money up. I'm amazed San Diego is that low, to be honest. My wife and I had to move outside of Boston proper, which broke my Boston heart, just to find something affordable on the T that wasn't enough of a commute that I would miss too much time with my infant son, and we pay $1500 for a pretty modest apartment (and it's considered a steal - we knew somebody who knew somebody, thanks, white-people social capital - and if we had to move and stay in the area, we'd probably be paying $500 more).
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May 16, 2019 06:04
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Bicyclops posted:I'm amazed San Diego is that low, to be honest. My wife and I had to move outside of Boston proper, which broke my Boston heart, just to find something affordable on the T that wasn't enough of a commute that I would miss too much time with my infant son, and we pay $1500 for a pretty modest apartment (and it's considered a steal - we knew somebody who knew somebody, thanks, white-people social capital - and if we had to move and stay in the area, we'd probably be paying $500 more).
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May 16, 2019 06:49
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1300 is cheap for San Diego. Average rent is $1960 now. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/real-estate/sd-fi-rent-sept-20181009-story.html
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May 16, 2019 06:58
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The Aardvark posted:1300 is cheap for San Diego. Average rent is $1960 now. It's kinda funny that article comes very close to spelling out why mean is a lovely stat easily thrown off by outliers by directly admitting new 3k a month luxury developments significantly skewed the data. The 'real' average was closer to 1.7k (still pricey) but then they also admitted they weren't differentiating between different room counts or unit sizes, but that big 2 bedroom units were the most common. Compared to most areas of LA and Orange County (let alone bay area or Sacramento) 1.7k for a nice 2 bedroom is a good deal.
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May 16, 2019 07:07
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$1300 is my portion of the total $2000/mo rent (1 bedroom)
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May 16, 2019 07:36
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FactsAreUseless posted:You're a pedantic rear end in a top hat who constantly levels personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with you, then you act like people are being unfair to you. You're obnoxious and you have to post better because you aren't good for D&D. I'm a little lost here, because from what I see, you started posting in this thread solely to throw insults at someone you disagree with. And yet now you're accusing me of doing it as a supporting argument to the claim that I am Bad for D&D. I hadn't so much as implied an attack at anyone up until I told WampaLord to "grow up" in response to these posts of his that quoted mine WampaLord posted:It's so funny how threads like these get the worst assholes to just show up and crow how big an rear end in a top hat they are and then get shocked and appalled when they get dogpiled. WampaLord posted:You and wateroverfire are both Just_World_Fallacy.txt but I guess you win the no-prize for the sadder of the two because you were bought off for much cheaper than he was. So, congrats! which you glossed over, and then described as "calling me out" for "talking out of my rear end." Help me understand the difference between a personal attack and calling someone out for talking out of their rear end, so I can get a clearer picture of how to post better. And D&D could use some pedantry given that the current trend of blindly posting like we're in the cynicism olympics just last week manifested in an extremely hosed up discussion in USPOL in which several posters explained that suicide was their retirement plan, or that they were/are weighing the option, and everyone sagely agreed that things were that awful. This poo poo was based on the exact sort of nothing matters, everything is poo poo, nothing will get better, everyone is hosed from the get go, and nobody has a chance hot takes that are being thrown out by the same sorts of people in this thread, above and beyond the extent of how bad things are in reality. That's not exactly healthy discussion. I tend to think it's Good For D&D to counter that when facts allow, because the alternate is the suicidal depression orgy that exists solely for people in poor mental states, and provides nothing of value, that this shithole is becoming. Main Paineframe posted:$14 an hour, 40 hours a week, is about $30k before tax. Why am I bringing this up? Well... The figures on this map are based on the needs of two adults and a child, per your link. I would absolutely agree that you cannot support a family with a stay at home significant other on $14 an hour. But two people together making $14 an hour have an income of $59k with no overtime, which would put them above the living wage in all but 3 of these states. Big cities disproportionately affect these numbers as well. That's why DC is higher than any state, and Illinois is higher than its surrounding states due to having Chicago when the rest of the states cost of living more closely mirrors Iowa, Indiana, etc. Same deal with Colorado and Denver relative to its surrounding states. With that in mind, outside of being close-ish to downtown in the largest, most expensive metropolitan areas, that figure would put a family above the living wage with several thousand a year to spare, and that's a totally attainable short/long term goal for most people. As a side note, the 30% rule is pretty conservative, especially at lower incomes. And income doesn't drop off that steeply in rural areas. When I made a lateral move from a position in rural Illinois to Denver, I made almost an identical wage. The cost of living drops off much more significantly than wages as you move away from the sorts of cities who's names would be recognizable to foreigners who have never been to the US. $1,000 will cover rent on a decent multiple bedroom house easy, and a $1,000 budget for both a mortgage payment and property taxes will get you an upgrade from that. As an individual, $650 got me a decent one bedroom when I was making exactly $14 a few years ago, and I didn't even have to budget to make it work, in a city of about 400,000 people. Paradoxish posted:Yes, you've nailed it. $14/hour would be a livable wage except for all the reasons that it isn't, and those reasons amount to "expenses are too high for $14/hour to be livable." Take home, bi-weekly pay for someone making $14/hour and working full-time is going to be south of $900. That's less than $2,000/month. You have to live literally in the middle of nowhere for ~$1800/month to be anywhere near comfortable. I still live on less than $2k a month after tax (albeit just barely under $2k) because I don't really want for anything I don't already buy, so I've just been investing the extra income I make at my new job. Still in a city of 400,000.
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May 16, 2019 09:08
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Volkerball posted:And D&D could use some pedantry given that the current trend of blindly posting like we're in the cynicism olympics just last week manifested in an extremely hosed up discussion in USPOL in which several posters explained that suicide was their retirement plan, or that they were/are weighing the option, and everyone sagely agreed that things were that awful. This poo poo was based on the exact sort of nothing matters, everything is poo poo, nothing will get better, everyone is hosed from the get go, and nobody has a chance hot takes that are being thrown out by the same sorts of people in this thread, above and beyond the extent of how bad things are in reality. Things are that bad in reality you ignorant oval office. Like, you've been shown and debated with, without ad hominems, that things ARE THAT loving BAD for MILLIONS of people, in the largest economies in the world, yet because they're not that bad for you or one assumes, the people you consider worth loving noticing (or worse, you do notice but assume it's a minority problem that people can just bootstrap themselves out of). Like, this can be made infinitely better for those millions of people without even putting the worst leeches of society into the loving poor house but we don't because "ew socialism" or "ew taxes" and "well I am reasonably informed if people weren't so LAZY or so BROWN it'd all be fine". Vast swathes of people literally have no loving clue how they're going to survive once they are no longer able to work, assuming they're even able to work now. Please explain why it's OK that with so much actual money swimming around the top five economies in the world, that even one person has to loving suffer while it's perfectly fine for others to squirrel money away into offshore accounts just to avoid paying what little tax they might be on the hook for, for no reason other than to masturbate over numbers on a screen going up or so they can buy a bigger yacht. gently caress you. e: oh and before I get accused of being lazy/not trying hard enough, I'm the patriarch in a family of four, somewhat comfortably middle class, LUCKY ENOUGH to be in a secure programming job. I still can't afford to buy a home, so I pay rent and I cannot choose a different career or vocation as much as I'd like to, because thanks to past fuckings over by the system, I have debt that has to be serviced. If I can recognise how poo poo things are for the majority of people, why the gently caress can't you? NinpoEspiritoSanto fucked around with this message at 09:19 on May 16, 2019 |
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May 16, 2019 09:16
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Bicyclops posted:What's funny about this is that Monopoly is already set up to teach you this lesson without the obvious rigging like giving someone multipliers. The basic strategy for the game is pretty solvable (it's more or less "buy anything you land on" with a few exceptions), and from there it comes down to one person having the luck to have landed on the right properties and a slow slog of everyone trying to pretend that the lucky person hasn't already won the game. It's already a game more or less designed to show you why capitalism isn't fair because some people essentially start with an advantage based on their circumstances, you don't even really need to change anything. monopoly's antecedent was created by a georgist woman who wanted to show kids monopolies are bad e: i really should finish catching up on threads before replying
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May 16, 2019 09:26
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How rich are your parents, Volkerball You too, wateroverfire
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May 16, 2019 11:13
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Bundy posted:Things are that bad in reality you ignorant oval office. Like, you've been shown and debated with, without ad hominems, that things ARE THAT loving BAD for MILLIONS of people, in the largest economies in the world, yet because they're not that bad for you or one assumes, the people you consider worth loving noticing (or worse, you do notice but assume it's a minority problem that people can just bootstrap themselves out of). For context, I support UBI as a long term response to automation and population growth, socialized healthcare, a free 4 years of college, a higher minimum wage, and protections for workers above the minimum wage scale that are designed to undo the major gains executive salaries have made relative to employee wages over the past few decades and prevent it from happening again. I also recognize that systemic racism has put an economic ball and chain on a lot of minorities and minority-heavy communities, and all of these policies should reflect that. Regarding retirement, the Motley Fool claims 79% of employers offer a 401k option, and while I assume it's possible, I'm not aware of any that don't offer a match, yet only 41% of those with the option contribute. That's 38% of people with a 401k option throwing away free money. According to lendingtree, the average car loan for people with credit scores below 660 is about $30,000 for a new car and $17,000 for a used car. The average American household carries $16,000 in credit card debt. 12 million Americans take out payday loans each year. The poorest third of households buy half of all lottery tickets. A lot of this is rooted in desperation, but it's also rooted in poor financial education, both when it comes to financial tools, and when it comes to predatory scams. We can fight for all of these regulations to change the way the system works, but at the same time, there's a lot of ways to benefit poor and middle class families that aren't reliant on Congress, that can change peoples fortunes dramatically. For a lot of people, these sorts of financial decisions can be the difference between living and good and happy life or dying broke and miserable. With that being the case, I don't think defeatism and reliance on government policy to solve everything is an effective or smart approach. I do think these sorts of policies will increasingly become more feasible, and decades down the road, high school students will look back at our debates over universal healthcare and the social floor and think what the gently caress was wrong with those people, but America can take a long time to change its mind. All the same, a decent living and financial independence are still attainable things that are worth trying to achieve with an educated approach for just about anybody. Few peoples lot in life is predetermined. There's still a decent amount of opportunity out there, and a lot of people are getting in on it. But there's more that isn't being capitalized on. quote:e: oh and before I get accused of being lazy/not trying hard enough, I'm the patriarch in a family of four, somewhat comfortably middle class, LUCKY ENOUGH to be in a secure programming job. I still can't afford to buy a home, so I pay rent and I cannot choose a different career or vocation as much as I'd like to, because thanks to past fuckings over by the system, I have debt that has to be serviced. If I can recognise how poo poo things are for the majority of people, why the gently caress can't you? I wouldn't accuse you of being lazy. Sounds like you found yourself a good job. I take it the fuckings over are student loans? Somfin posted:How rich are your parents, Volkerball Dad's a deadbeat I haven't spoken to since I was a kid although I think he makes decent money, and my mom is a single mother of two siblings that are under 18 and makes $16 something an hour.
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May 16, 2019 11:48
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so I was the manager at a small store owned by 1 guy, he has like 10 or some spread all over the state of Michigan. everybody in the company pretty much had a bootstraps your way up to fame and wealth, like the owner did*(having a rich dad and rich grandpa helps). i was in charge of hiring people at my store, and we paid a glorious wage of 10$ an hour. my area manager went on a tirade at me to hire better people, because if people want to be lazy, they can go work at fastfood for minimum wage and that they should be lucky we pay so much. the work wasn't hard, but, nobody really wants to do anything for 10$ an hour, and it's not like I could pay more, because that was set in stone by my bosses boss. i received a lot of resumes, and they pressured me to hire quickly. the advice given to me from my area manager was to hire hot chicks, and my other advice from my other boss was to only hire ~local~ and ~like us~. tons of people scheduled, a lot of them didn't show up, which i didn't blame them. we didn't offer benefits, you could work overtime, but you wouldn't receive overtime pay, because of some convoluted Michigan law that made no sense to me at all, this business was exempt from. interviews were weird, because I had to make it up as I went along. we didn't have a template, a format, anything. I basically was super blunt and just told the truth about the work, the pay, the environment, and that they'd be pushing sales on boomer dad's, basically. luckily, i was able to hire quickly from friends of people i hired and everything worked out, except for one guy who walked off, because he said we shouldn't be selling people useless junk, capitalism is a house of cards, and that he was going to go hangout in the woods for a few months. he wasn't wrong. whenever i see SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS whining about if they have to pay x y z or treat their workers better it will KILL THEIR PRECIOUS SMALL BUSINESS, I think about the ~small business owner~ the millionaire boss was and the boatloads of cash he made and the bribes he would pay to get around regulations.
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May 16, 2019 12:17
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Volkerball posted:while I assume it's possible, I'm not aware of any that don't offer a match I guess we can add 401ks to the list of things that you're naive about.
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May 16, 2019 13:27
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Main Paineframe posted:$14 an hour, 40 hours a week, is about $30k before tax. Why am I bringing this up? Well... quote:And just to be clear, the Living Wage we’re talking about here is how much it will cost you (annually) to actually live in each state; more specifically—the income needed to support two adults and one kiddo. Somfin posted:How rich are your parents, Volkerball
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May 16, 2019 13:42
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Cicero posted:This is pretty gross and should be probe-worthy imo. Attacking posters for their own shittiness is fine, trying to pry into their family background for gotchas is really dumb and bad Is it a gotcha or a real attempt to discern the source and nature of the individuals blindspots? It's really weird when people post misleading statistics that everyone recognizes as misleading but them, because we've all seen them refuted multiple times in this very sub forum, but then continue to act like they should have some benefit that they know what they talk about.
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May 16, 2019 13:57
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nah assuming things about people's backgrounds in order to discredit what they're saying is bad practice - in this case i happen to know for a fact that volkerball is at most from a lower middle class background, but that doesn't make him more our less wrong if the stats are misleading, say so and preferably also why they're misleading
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May 16, 2019 14:00
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