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The Notorious ZSB posted:We're just gonna disagree about ZZ being good (because imo it isn't, and I've litigated that before in this thread). But ZZ is sure as hell full of misogyny. Women are repeatedly physically and verbally abused, treated like they don't deserve the positions they are in, and generally are relegated to getting the poo poo end of the stick from all the male characters. There is an entire arc where they are basically being sold into sexual slavery on a colony for umm we aren't really sure why just because I guess. There's a big difference between "terrible things happen to women in a show where terrible things happen to everyone" and "the show has major character arcs strung entirely on the framework of an extremely weird and warped view of whether or not a woman is properly destined for a particular role in life"; the former occurs in every single Gundam series, but the latter is unique to only a few productions. Shows like MSG and ZZ have bad poo poo happen to ladies but they don't have anything like Master Pickup Artist Paptimus Scirocco whose primary plan is to control the earth through a puppet queen and is portrayed as a super charismatic attractive lothario who women throw themselves at while searching for their proper role in life, or the Shrikes from Victory who are a squadron of soldiers who all die deaths that are explicitly alluded to be extra tragic because the proper role of women is to make new life and by dying in combat with that role unfulfilled it's super sad. I'll let the "is ZZ good" argument go because it's going to go nowhere.
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May 28, 2019 21:51
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TBF, while there is much that's iffy about Zeta's treatment of women, it seems pretty obvious that Scirocco's using his immense psychic powers to mess with women's heads until they fall for him. There's even a shot where he touches Reccoa's shoulder on the Jupitris and there's a little flash of psychic energy.
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May 28, 2019 21:54
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tbh I think Wing was better about its women than SEED and 00. The central female characters in both shows were okay but I think the bit parts get worse treatment than they do in Wing (I remember getting really pissed off about the reporter getting fridged just to make Ali al-Saachez menacing because I also liked that subplot)
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May 28, 2019 21:57
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Merilan posted:(I remember getting really pissed off about the reporter getting fridged just to make Ali al-Saachez menacing because I also liked that subplot) i understand this but ali's excellent english VA sold that scene so loving hard that i kind of love it anyway
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May 28, 2019 22:00
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ninjewtsu posted:i understand this but ali's excellent english VA sold that scene so loving hard that i kind of love it anyway Oh yeah, the scene itself was really chilling and effective, I won't lie Reporter lady deserved better tho 
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May 28, 2019 22:03
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Yeah. I agree with the sexism and boring fight choreography complaints about Zeta. Victory is my most recently watched Gundam show, so the sexism weirdness in Zeta barely even registers to me anymore. The Reccoa stuff doesn't really make sense to me without a rewatch. I do think Kamille's arc is consistent and tragic though. Watching him try to mentor Katz like Quattro mentored him ... oof. Even with the valid complaints, I think Zeta delivers on its premise better than any other Gundam show that I've watched.
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May 28, 2019 22:04
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I always felt that, as problematic as things got in older Gundam shows, they still had better women characters than more recent outings. SeeD and 00 were pretty bad, and so was Unicorn now that I think about it. Early IBo was dire but apparently it gets better after I dropped it. G-Reco being a time-displaced show form the 70s/80s brought back that weird balance between good and problematic the early Gundams had. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 22:07
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always felt that, as problematic as things got in older Gundam shows, they still had better women characters than more recent outings. SeeD and 00 were pretty bad, and so was Unicorn now that I think about it. Early IBo was dire but apparently it gets better after I dropped it.
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May 28, 2019 22:16
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Nessus posted:My read for the older shows is that while they were embedded in a worse matrix, they were making deliberate efforts (other than Reccoa) Yeah. Kind of like OG Star Trek versus Newer Star Trek.
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May 28, 2019 22:27
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Something is broken in you that cannot be fixed if you think Victory is less hosed up about women then Wing or 00.
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May 28, 2019 22:36
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah. Kind of like OG Star Trek versus Newer Star Trek. It's a lot like Star Trek: The Next Generation. In many ways it's superior, but it will never be as recognized as the original.
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May 28, 2019 22:37
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The best Dub voice is still Rau.That VA really sold how increasingly unhinged that dude got.
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May 28, 2019 22:48
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Zedd posted:The best Dub voice is still Rau.That VA really sold how increasingly unhinged that dude got. Rau diving headlong into his villain monologues and emerging picking scenery from his teeth was really the best reason to watch Seed. It was like watching The Emperor from Star Wars. "You are transparently evil, but you are having such a good time with it." 
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May 28, 2019 22:53
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ZZ may not have Reccoa or Scirocco but there's a couple episodes where the men are goofing off while making the women do the laundry and while the women do complain that it is unfair nothing actually comes of it. At least Scirocco is openly an rear end in a top hat that you're supposed to find reprehensible, this poo poo is just wacky sitcom antics that are supposed to be funny.
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May 28, 2019 22:56
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Warmachine posted:Rau diving headlong into his villain monologues and emerging picking scenery from his teeth was really the best reason to watch Seed. It was like watching The Emperor from Star Wars. "You are transparently evil, but you are having such a good time with it." The original is fine but Dub AU really solid the guy going totally crazy, knowing it, and being on board for it
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May 28, 2019 23:00
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Gym from Turn A is definitely the biggest villainous ham in the series, though, even if some other characters put in some strong competition.
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May 28, 2019 23:04
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No matter how problematic other Gundams could be at times, nothing I've seen is worse than Mirai's and Slegger's romance in MSG. The romance consisted of him hitting her in the face and then she's in love with him and that's the entire extent of it.
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May 28, 2019 23:13
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you can def point to sexist writing in all of that UC stuff but Zeta just leaves more of a bitter taste for me, probably because it has such a negative tone in general on top of the sexism. Victory already has me exhausted with its bullshit though and I'm like 20% of the way through.
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May 28, 2019 23:15
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Like, I guess it's cool that Scirocco got his comeuppance for all the women he manipulated, but you're still ending the show with an attack fueled by dead women. Even if Zeta wasn't the worst, it didn't do itself any favors in that regard. Rosamia alone feels like a huge detriment to Zeta's quality. It is cool when you realize how alright Wing did. Noin is still one of my favorites, even if she wasn't grabbing the patriarchy by the horns like Relena did. God drat.
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May 28, 2019 23:56
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Wing is good. Ultimately the women do more outside robots than the dumb boys in robots ever do.
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May 29, 2019 00:12
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Maybe I just missed it or it was the subs I used, but where in Zeta was the Biosensor ever mentioned?brainwrinkle posted:I do think Kamille's arc is consistent and tragic though. Watching him try to mentor Katz like Quattro mentored him ... oof. I like Katz. He fucks up, but he's still a good kid at heart who just wants to help fight and overthrow the fascists. The tragedy with him is that he thinks he's in a goofy Tomino show where things work out somehow, rather than being in, well, Zeta.
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May 29, 2019 00:18
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amigolupus posted:Maybe I just missed it or it was the subs I used, but where in Zeta was the Biosensor ever mentioned? It isn't. Its abilities come out of nowhere and with no explanation beyond "Kamille's just that powerful of a Newtype". I'm not even sure where or when the Biosensor was properly introduced.
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May 29, 2019 00:21
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MonsieurChoc posted:Wing is good. Ultimately the women do more outside robots than the dumb boys in robots ever do. are we talking about the same wing, where relena follows heero around for the first 10 eps yelling at him to
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May 29, 2019 00:22
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It's been a while since I watched the Zeta tv show and I was super confused by why people hated Beltorchika when she first showed up. She was fine, it's people being weird about famile characters again! I thought. And then everything after her intro happened. From where I'm up to in Victory, Katejina's writing doesn't bother me as much Marbet's utter uslessness despite presumably being a skilled pilot. Still, both are better than the limp fart of a Char that Chronicle is so far.
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May 29, 2019 00:50
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Victory is a huge mess. So much that doesn't make sense and is deeply uncomfortable.
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May 29, 2019 00:59
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To get back onto the original point, for me at least the problem with Zeta is the beginning. Yes, there's character growth and all eventually, but Camille just starts at such a ludicrously stupid and unrelateable point that it just kills the immersion or any desire to watch more of. Like, Camille is the oldest of the mainline Gundam series protagonists at 17 (yes, I know Domon's older, but G Gundam really is its own thing), and yet is the most childish to such a ludicrous extend it's absurd. You don't reach that age with THAT much blatant acting out at a hair trigger without parents with significant pull - which he does not have.Kuvo posted:are we talking about the same wing, where relena follows heero around for the first 10 eps yelling at him to Yeah, I'm not getting this love for Wing's portrayal either. I guess it wasn't particularly terrible, but it's not like it was particularly good either. Like, ignoring Destiny (which is a good idea regardless), in Seed you have Cagalli growing to fill her father's role, Murrue growing to be a reasonably competent captain, Lacus starting to coalesce a faction around herself, and Natarle... being Natarle (I dunno, but there's nothing regressive about her actions at least). Yeah, you have the big issue of Flay, along with the minor one of the female Astray team (which is a callback of course, but without the subtext people are claiming the initial version had. They just randomly die and then onto something else). And "Relena stops being a crazy lunatic and starts leading a nation (in a way that wouldn't accomplish anything if this wasn't the crazytown that is the Wing universe)" is somehow better? Lady Une and Sally are fine, I guess, but that's about it in terms of ones without qualifiers. Again, Destiny nukes one of those and brings up several entirely new issues, but I'm just talking about the original series here. MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah. Kind of like OG Star Trek versus Newer Star Trek. Arcsquad12 posted:It's a lot like Star Trek: The Next Generation. In many ways it's superior, but it will never be as recognized as the original. Uh, I wouldn't really qualify TNG as Newer Star Trek here, given it's over 30 years old at this point with far more recent examples. And I have incredibly nasty thoughts on how "inclusive" Disco actually is, compared to what the morons who produced/wrote it seem to think.
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May 29, 2019 01:01
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One of the smaller things that stands out in Wing to me is female presence in general - I feel like I can recall random female soldiers, cadets etc. and a lot of the bit parts like say Sally Po feel like roles you'd expect to just be male-default-assigned in the mecha genre, especially from the era it was written.
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May 29, 2019 01:02
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Blaze Dragon posted:It isn't. Its abilities come out of nowhere and with no explanation beyond "Kamille's just that powerful of a Newtype". I'm not even sure where or when the Biosensor was properly introduced. It's weird because I don't think it's ever mentioned by name in ZZ either. I wonder if the Biosensor was mentioned in an interview, or maybe it was text on the side of a GunPla box. Lord Koth posted:To get back onto the original point, for me at least the problem with Zeta is the beginning. Yes, there's character growth and all eventually, but Camille just starts at such a ludicrously stupid and unrelateable point that it just kills the immersion or any desire to watch more of. Like, Camille is the oldest of the mainline Gundam series protagonists at 17 (yes, I know Domon's older, but G Gundam really is its own thing), and yet is the most childish to such a ludicrous extend it's absurd. You don't reach that age with THAT much blatant acting out at a hair trigger without parents with significant pull - which he does not have. I dunno, a friend who keeps shouting your name, a name you absolutely hate and have asked her not to do so for ages, repeatedly in public seems like it'd get on your nerves quick. Not to mention wanting to punch fascists and cops is super relateable in this day and age.
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May 29, 2019 01:46
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kamille still being an idiot kid at 17 and lashing out is incredibly relateable there is something incredibly cathartic about seeing a dumbass kid who's angry at the world but doesn't really know how it works just punching the face in of whatever rear end in a top hat authority figure happens to personally slight him
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May 29, 2019 01:52
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always felt that, as problematic as things got in older Gundam shows, they still had better women characters than more recent outings. SeeD and 00 were pretty bad, and so was Unicorn now that I think about it. Early IBo was dire but apparently it gets better after I dropped it. IBO gets both better and worse. It has at least one major female character who gets a solid arc that isn't about a dude or dying but almost every other female character gets an arc about a dude or dying. Kudelia gets significantly less focus and there's at least one AGE-level fridging which hugely sucks. That said AGE is still the king of the heap for "Gundam Show with the least respect for women" by a *wide* margin.
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May 29, 2019 02:01
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I feel like if you compared Relena and Lacus, it'd be neck-and-neck. Really would have to freshen up my memories before I'd do it personally though.
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May 29, 2019 02:13
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ninjewtsu posted:kamille still being an idiot kid at 17 and lashing out is incredibly relateable And tbf Kamille does get his rear end beat pretty often
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May 29, 2019 02:22
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HitTheTargets posted:I feel like if you compared Relena and Lacus, it'd be neck-and-neck. Really would have to freshen up my memories before I'd do it personally though. Relena is better because Lacus doesn’t work for it. She’s a pop singer with a respected dad. Dad gets killed, and it’s as if Britney Spears inherits the political power somehow based on just her name and steamrolls the opposition. Relena puts in some political work onscreen and earned her power. Midjack fucked around with this message at 02:41 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 02:30
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I think the reason why people aren't sure about whether or not Wing was good with women is forgetting the bigger deal with Wing: everyone is absolutely batshit insane. Even the voices of reason are insane to a lesser degree. Hell, I think Hilde might have been the most sane person in the show and it takes her bumping into Duo to realize that "God, this whole Oz thing sucks and I really want none of it." The men are all crazy and want to blow each other up. The women are all crazy and want to change the world in other means. I'd say they've got the advantage.
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May 29, 2019 02:33
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Midjack posted:Relena is better because Lacus doesn’t work for it. She’s a pop singer with a respected dad. Dad gets killed, and it’s as if Britney Spears inherits the political power somehow based I her name and steamrolls the opposition. Relena puts in some political work onscreen and earned her power. That's not really true? Like say what you want about Lacus but she is actively shown doing a lot of stuff. There's scenes of her camping in a bunker sending pirated radio broadcasts to ZAFT trying to argue against the Zala faction and coming extremely close to getting murdered. (And her dad actually does get murdered.) She didn't just Suddenly Get Power. I feel like people forget that SEED spends a lot more time on Lacus than they think it does. (Or in Destiny where year she basically sits around doing nothing except getting powerups.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:35 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 02:33
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On the topic of how Gundam treats women, the ones that do it best are probably G, 00, and Turn A, though I'm not sure what the exact order would be
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May 29, 2019 02:34
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drrockso20 posted:On the topic of how Gundam treats women, the ones that do it best are probably G, 00, and Turn A, though I'm not sure what the exact order would be Eeeeeeh. 00 I would be a hard disagree. Most of its female cast is defined by whose girlfriend they are or exist to get Tragically Killed or are otherwise defined by male characters. Soma is probably the closest to a solid well-rounded character and even then she's all about her romance and her father figure and her sorta-brother. Almost everything it attempts to do is done better in other series. (Marina is I would say the absolute worst interation of the Princess archetype that Gundam loves.) G isn't bad precisely but I wouldn't call it standout. It has some awesome moments but a huge chunk of the female cast exists to be defined by their boyfriend/love interest and not much else. Turn-A is good though. It has a wide and varied cast of characters who are not solely defined by male characters and who are allowed to be characters. It is probably the overall best TBH. If I had to pick a top 3... Turn-A War in the Pocket (Kind of cheating but OH WELL) Wing but mostly on the strength of Relena. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:41 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 02:38
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ImpAtom posted:That's not really true? It has been a few years since I watched it so maybe I’m remembering it wrong because my recollection was that Lacus didn’t do anything political besides sing songs until her father was assassinated. I don’t remember the bunker at all. And maybe that’s part of the problem: for whatever reason. SEED is such that Lacus is remembered so, while the environment of Wing is such that Relena is more favorably remembered.
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May 29, 2019 02:46
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I think they had ambition to make Sumeragi a compelling character but they had hands made of ham. And I feel like marrying Patrick doesn't change the fact that Kati was a boss. 00 is a mixed bag here. Edit: Say what you want about Louise but at least in season 2, when she's the contractually obligated brain-washed MA, pilot the dude who wants to rescue her is basing that on years of shared history instead of Newtype thoughts & prayers. HitTheTargets fucked around with this message at 02:56 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 02:47
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Midjack posted:It has been a few years since I watched it so maybe I’m remembering it wrong because my recollection was that Lacus didn’t do anything political besides sing songs until her father was assassinated. I don’t remember the bunker at all. Lacus was doing some behind-the-scenes things prior to getting outed, but mostly like trying to sway people away from crazy. Then she handed the Freedom over to Kira and her family was forced into hiding after being blamed for Spit Break. At that point Lacus starts actively campaigning against Zala. We're shown a montage of Zala's Gihren-Wanabee speeches intermixed with Lacus hijacking the airwaves to counter them using what is apparently a fake image of herself because we see the pop star look and then it cuts to her in hiding looking like this:  Followed by Zala complaining about the broadcasts undermining him and various characters discussing the oddity of Lacus Clyne being called a traitor who sided with the Earth Federation. She's actually leaving the hideout in disguise after one of these broadcasts when she finds out her dad's been killed. Midjack posted:And maybe that’s part of the problem: for whatever reason. SEED is such that Lacus is remembered so, I think a lot of the blame rests on Destiny, which is honestly where a lot of SEED's worst personality traits got played up. I'm not going to argue that SEED is a hidden gem but it has more going for it than Destiny does where every character basically became their meme version. Sort of like Final Fantasy 7 vs the FF7 Extended Universe. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:59 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 02:55
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