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Yinlock posted:why would you want to save him though Because he's the pretty much only interesting or sympathetic character in Gjallarhorn.
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May 30, 2019 14:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Does it count when you're deliberately dressing as a Char in a vision-quest to understand one by becoming him, but never quite get it? He's much more of a Char analogue than McGillis, who was kind of a fakeout. Unless you mean that he was emotionally healthier at the end and was able to get out and not destroy himself or his values. They both probably deviate more from the template than most.
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May 30, 2019 14:48
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HitTheTargets posted:If not Mcgillis, maybe Gaelio. We need to be able to field a team of only Chars. One day we will get Afranchi Char. One day.
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May 30, 2019 15:08
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BizarroAzrael posted:He's much more of a Char analogue than McGillis, who was kind of a fakeout. Unless you mean that he was emotionally healthier at the end and was able to get out and not destroy himself or his values. They both probably deviate more from the template than most. McGillis was extremely Char - a flamboyant, genius pilot and an emotionally-stunted manchild who way too many people put way too much faith in. The only major difference was that he wanted power rather than shying away from it. Gaelio was way too sane and normal to be a Char - he tried to put on the persona, but he just couldn't match the kind of insane conviction you need. A true Char's mask wouldn't have stopped a bullet to the head, a true Char would have carved his own path rather than making himself a vessel for someone else's revenge, and a true Char would have been more interested in destroying his enemy than understanding him.
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May 30, 2019 15:52
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ninjewtsu posted:What i find interesting is that in both versions, gihren is painted in somewhat broad strokes the same. He's a man without any real ideology who is using fascist rhetoric as an excuse to further his inhuman goals. In OG gundam, it comes off more like something he thought people would actually buy, like he carefully crafted his broader points into something that he thought would made sense to the listener, not realizing how loving bonkers "we just have to start murdering people so that no one is weak" sounds. I don't know that's it's a real ideology, but in original Gundam he comes off like he genuinely believes that murdering billions to reduce the population is a good idea to help with resource management. Which might be at least partially because the planet is so hosed in UC, but he seems to believe is partially the fault of the overly time consuming bureaucracy that democracies like the Federation inherently create. I'm sure it didn't hurt that it made it easier for him to consolidate power and rule over the remainder either, but he does seem to actually think it's a good idea. That scene is one of the few where we get any real insight in to Gihren though, so it's hard to gauge, because there's not much else to go on. brainwrinkle posted:What do you Zeta dislikers not like about Zeta? I think it's arguably the best Gundam show. Kamille, Emma, and Interesting is not a word I would attach to Emma. She's a good person, and a good pilot but there's nothing interesting about her because once she leaves the Titans to join AEUG she has no real development. All she really does after that point is facilitate other character's developments. About the most significant thing she does of her own is refuse to hook up with Henken. amigolupus posted:Maybe I just missed it or it was the subs I used, but where in Zeta was the Biosensor ever mentioned? The show never mentions the biosensor by name, but in the finale when all the spirits are targeting Scirocco, one of them mentions that "the Zeta is a machine that can use that power" or something along those lines, in reference to the power of other people. I would assume a databook or some gunpla manual was probably the first to place that as an actual technology and name it. Shinjobi posted:It is cool when you realize how alright Wing did. Noin is still one of my favorites, even if she wasn't grabbing the patriarchy by the horns like Relena did. God drat. I'll never get the esteem some people hold Noin in particular in, because she first appears by recounting how many days it's been since she and Zechs met to an absurd exactitude that makes her come off as desperately dependent on him, after Zechs mentions to some of his subordinates how he suspects that Noin deliberately held back in tests so he could place first and in the finale she abandons the protagonists and everything she's been fighting for up to that point to go and stand behind Zechs, telling him that she won't fight him or try to change his mind about his plan to start a huge war, because she just wants to be by his side. With Quattro just shrugging his shoulders and going "no, let her go" when Noin leaves. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons she even starts helping Relena is specifically because she wants to do what Zechs would want her to do. Une is pretty stupid too, in that she develops a split personality almost entirely because Trieze talked about how she wasn't nice enough or something if I recall. jackhunter64 posted:Because he's the pretty much only interesting or sympathetic character in Gjallarhorn. Are Julietta, Gaelio and Rustal not in Gjallarhorn? tsob fucked around with this message at 16:37 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 16:29
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tsob posted:I'll never get the esteem some people hold Noin in particular in, because she first appears by recounting how many days it's been since she and Zechs met to an absurd exactitude that makes her come off as desperately dependent on him, after Zechs mentions to some of his subordinates how he suspects that Noin deliberately held back in tests so he could place first and in the finale she abandons the protagonists and everything she's been fighting for up to that point to go and stand behind Zechs, telling him that she won't fight him or try to change his mind about his plan to start a huge war, because she just wants to be by his side. With Quattro just shrugging his shoulders and going "no, let her go" when Noin leaves. Une is pretty stupid too, in that she develops a split personality almost entirely because Trieze talked about how she wasn't nice enough or something if I recall. I must've missed the Zeta crossover episode.
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May 30, 2019 16:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Does it count when you're deliberately dressing as a Char in a vision-quest to understand one by becoming him, but never quite get it? It would be a hard sell for me not to have this on my all Char team.
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May 30, 2019 17:43
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It's like asking me if I don't want a team made up of the craziest Gundam characters because that is an absolute yes.
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May 30, 2019 17:45
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Tulalip Tulips posted:It's like asking me if I don't want a team made up of the craziest Gundam characters because that is an absolute yes. Ironically, Gaelio never gets it because he's far too sane.
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May 30, 2019 17:50
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tsob posted:Are Julietta, Gaelio and Rustal not in Gjallarhorn? They are and I stand by it. Julietta doesn't live up to being a foil to Mika for me because there's very little to her beyond yelling 'Master Rustal' over and over, and her end realisation that 'I guess the vermin we've been grinding under Gjallarhorn's bootheel were people all along' isn't exactly endearing. Rustal is too bulletproof to really latch on to, I do get him as a Tywin Lannister-type cruel but pragmatic leader, but he always gets his way and never suffers any real setbacks along the road. The only time he's surprised by something is when Shino takes aim at him, the rest of the time it's absolute hyper competence and self-assuredness. Gaelio comes back from the grave all sound and fury about fighting for 'love and respect', but he's still on the side that sets up the poor to be slaughtered by the army, and still looks down on the revolutionary soldiers at space rats led by McGillis as Pied Piper. Countless people meet an awful end in the PD era, why should this aristocrat who's lived in the lap of luxury all his life get to have a second chance? McGillis is deeply, deeply flawed, does bad things and makes mistakes (and ultimately pays the price), but he's a product of that world and so much more identifiable than any of that lot. They all start and finish at the top of the pile, which just doesn't feel good. wow that's a lot of words to say 'jack hates posh cunts who always get their way'
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May 30, 2019 17:51
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I haven't even seen the second season of IBO, because I found the first season really boring beyond the first 5 or 6 episodes and the last 2 or 3, so I'm not going to contest the point. I was asking because I was genuinely unsure whether they were in Gjallarhorn during the second season and they're normally held up as the sympathetic and/or interesting characters. Also, I'm probably the most needlessly verbose person in this thread, so that last part is definitely unnecessary (or, at least, kind of funny) in response to me in particular.
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May 30, 2019 18:04
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Darth Walrus posted:Ironically, Gaelio never gets it because he's far too sane. I mean we could break it into sanity tiers but it might get complicated depending on criteria.
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May 30, 2019 18:38
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finally, a tier list i want to see
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May 30, 2019 18:47
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tsob posted:I haven't even seen the second season of IBO, because I found the first season really boring beyond the first 5 or 6 episodes and the last 2 or 3, so I'm not going to contest the point. I was asking because I was genuinely unsure whether they were in Gjallarhorn during the second season and they're normally held up as the sympathetic and/or interesting characters. Also, I'm probably the most needlessly verbose person in this thread, so that last part is definitely unnecessary (or, at least, kind of funny) in response to me in particular. I stand alone on this hill and I will die here.
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May 30, 2019 18:48
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ninjewtsu posted:finally, a tier list i want to see Is idiocy a psychosis? Cronicle wasn't insane as far as I recall for instance, he was just really easily manipulated by Fonse Kagatie and Katejina*. Mistah Bushido and Mask qualify too, because neither were notably psychotic or anything; they were just really, really focused on revenge but were pretty much fine after being snapped out of it in the finale. Neo Roanoke might just fall in to that category because he had so little focus or development in Destiny though. Jamile Neate and Lancerow Dawell from X (depending on how you classify it) and Meijin Kawaguchi are just rad, bad dudes and probably the coolest Chars. Lady Kawaguchi, on the other hand...well, she's stupid, but for an entirely different reason. * Really, I'd consider Katejina the Char of Victory Gundam, but I know Sunrise wouldn't agree with that and that most fans don't either. Still, she has a red mobile suit in the finale, her relationship with Uso is very intense, she gives a good eye in to the enemy faction while trying to rise up the ranks for personal ambition and she even has a slightly odd fixation on a younger member of the opposite sex.
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May 30, 2019 19:40
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tsob posted:Is idiocy a psychosis? Cronicle wasn't insane as far as I recall for instance, he was just really easily manipulated by Fonse Kagatie and Katejina*. Mistah Bushido and Mask qualify too, because neither were notably psychotic or anything; they were just really, really focused on revenge but were pretty much fine after being snapped out of it in the finale. Neo Roanoke might just fall in to that category because he had so little focus or development in Destiny though. Harry Ord is top tier for sanity. Fashion sense, though... Well. It's distinct.
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May 30, 2019 20:21
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jackhunter64 posted:They are and I stand by it. Julietta doesn't live up to being a foil to Mika for me because there's very little to her beyond yelling 'Master Rustal' over and over, and her end realisation that 'I guess the vermin we've been grinding under Gjallarhorn's bootheel were people all along' isn't exactly endearing. Rustal is too bulletproof to really latch on to, I do get him as a Tywin Lannister-type cruel but pragmatic leader, but he always gets his way and never suffers any real setbacks along the road. The only time he's surprised by something is when Shino takes aim at him, the rest of the time it's absolute hyper competence and self-assuredness. Gaelio comes back from the grave all sound and fury about fighting for 'love and respect', but he's still on the side that sets up the poor to be slaughtered by the army, and still looks down on the revolutionary soldiers at space rats led by McGillis as Pied Piper. Countless people meet an awful end in the PD era, why should this aristocrat who's lived in the lap of luxury all his life get to have a second chance? McGillis is deeply, deeply flawed, does bad things and makes mistakes (and ultimately pays the price), but he's a product of that world and so much more identifiable than any of that lot. They all start and finish at the top of the pile, which just doesn't feel good. Julietta's arc isn't being a foil to Mika(Mika barely acknowledges her existence on any level and she certainly is never a credible threat to him when he's not on the verge of death), it's being a counterpart to Hush. Both of them are meant to be outside-in perspectives on Mikazuki and what he has become, divorced from the internal hierarchy of Tekkadan. Hush ends up becoming enamored with Mika's raw power and wishes to emulate it at any cost, whereas Julietta benefits from having other perspectives like Gaelio's and additional information that can flesh out how and why Mika is what he is and why it's a Bad loving Idea to give up your humanity to become a death god. She's not meant to be a super involved character so much as she's designed to help trumpet to the audience that maybe becoming a mechanical monster for the sake of power isn't a super great idea. McGillis is a tragic figure because his past hosed him up real bad but there's literally no indication that a future where he won would be meaningfully better for people relative to Rustal's measured concessions. He talks a lot about "reform" but his idea of "reform" seems to be "the Seven Stars are abolished and now I am in charge of everything because I am the white knight storybook hero", and given that he was super down with betraying and murdering his childhood friends in cold blood for the crime of "happening to be nobles" despite them being utterly devoted to him, there's a pretty high likelihood that he'd have gotten a nice bloody purge going that would have probably plunged the solar system into absolute chaos, making things a whole lot worse than the already "loving lovely" they were at. IBO is a universe that is so garbage for basically everyone that the best and happiest ending for everyone that is possible is "Tywin Lannister wins because he's competent enough to understand that occasionally you need to compromise to stave off absolute murder death chaos".
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May 30, 2019 23:11
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Rustal winning is p much the best possible outcome for the universe. The dude is ruthless and amoral to some degree, but willing to reform (for selfish reasons) the system when needed.
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May 30, 2019 23:20
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Tulalip Tulips posted:I mean we could break it into sanity tiers but it might get complicated depending on criteria. Char occupies 3 spaces on the tier list, A("I've never betrayed anyone in my entire life") S(all of MSG) and SS("i want a tiny psychic girl to be my mom") jackhunter64 posted:Because he's the pretty much only interesting or sympathetic character in Gjallarhorn. he's a narcissist who's only problem with the corrupt system is that he isn't in charge of it he's a space libertarian Julietta and Gaelio will probably be the srw secret units Yinlock fucked around with this message at 00:03 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 23:58
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Zedd posted:Rustal winning is p much the best possible outcome for the universe. I think it's a slight oversimplification to call Rustal selfish. He has a deep, sincere affection for Gjallarhorn and humanity as a whole. He just doesn't see why he shouldn't work to advance himself and his inner circle as well, and he'll happily trade a small personal sacrifice for a great public good or a small public sacrifice for a great personal good. The thing that makes him interesting is that he's so consistent in his inconsistencies - he genuinely does not give a poo poo about hypocrisy, and will merrily cruise through the tangled mess that is Gjallarhorn while everyone else gets tangled up in their own principles and their own ambitions.
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May 31, 2019 00:02
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I don't think McGillis thought everything was fine with Gjallarhorn except who was in charge. It's more that he distrusts older people (I wonder why) and thinks he's the only one who can reform it. He doesn't think anyone else can (whether it's because he's an outsider or because of his chosen successor to Agnika poo poo) and that's what muddles his supposed reformer positions. If you want to reform Gjallarhorn, you better follow him or you're not a real reformer. The flaws are that he is in no way equipped to make lasting reforms. The world he envisions is vague. It might be better even. But it's going to be a messy and chaotic path to get there. Rustal's the sort of guy who would've totally opposed reforms if he thought it was the best way to return Gjallarhorn to its position of prominence and return a semblance of order to the world. But as he saw it, things developed to the point where the cat was out of the bag and there's no way to force it back into the bag again, so he took the easier option. In essence, Tekkadan and McGillis and his reformers paved the way for Rustal to go ahead with reforms. If they hadn't made as big a mess as they did, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to re-establish Gjallarhorn's reputation and implement reforms in the process. After S1, the cat's out of the bag but it's not clear to Rustal how he can make things right again. After McGillis does his thing, it became very easy for him to make him out to be the bad guy. Throw in the other misdeeds of the Seven Stars, including Iok, and he comes out of the whole mess looking incredibly humble, having cleaned up everyone's messes and even the one he tried his best to keep a lid on.
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May 31, 2019 00:27
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Argas posted:If you want to reform Gjallarhorn, you better follow him or you're not a real reformer. it's easy to make him out to be the bad guy because he is the bad guy, because of the first part that's why i call him a narcissist, to him it would be fine as long as he had the most power. his motivation isn't "i want to make things better" but "i want to make things better for me personally, if everyone else has to die for that then eh" e: i mean otoh loving glemy was unlockable in X so who knows he might end up as the most heroic character in srw history Yinlock fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 02:25
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Also playable Yazan. Never forget V gave us playable Yazan.
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May 31, 2019 03:26
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Playable Yazan was amazing in no small part because he was a giant Foresight machine so you had the final battle of V going on and everyone is being protected by Yazan armchair generalling everyone from the back telling them to watch out
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May 31, 2019 03:32
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jackhunter64 posted:They are and I stand by it. Julietta doesn't live up to being a foil to Mika for me because there's very little to her beyond yelling 'Master Rustal' over and over, and her end realisation that 'I guess the vermin we've been grinding under Gjallarhorn's bootheel were people all along' isn't exactly endearing. Rustal is too bulletproof to really latch on to, I do get him as a Tywin Lannister-type cruel but pragmatic leader, but he always gets his way and never suffers any real setbacks along the road. The only time he's surprised by something is when Shino takes aim at him, the rest of the time it's absolute hyper competence and self-assuredness. Gaelio comes back from the grave all sound and fury about fighting for 'love and respect', but he's still on the side that sets up the poor to be slaughtered by the army, and still looks down on the revolutionary soldiers at space rats led by McGillis as Pied Piper. Countless people meet an awful end in the PD era, why should this aristocrat who's lived in the lap of luxury all his life get to have a second chance? McGillis is deeply, deeply flawed, does bad things and makes mistakes (and ultimately pays the price), but he's a product of that world and so much more identifiable than any of that lot. They all start and finish at the top of the pile, which just doesn't feel good. Well, a lot of words one way pretty much asks for a lot of words another. To start at the start, Julieta is a poor mercenary whose life is devoted to fulfilling the dreams of the person who gave her purpose, even when the person in question would like her to maybe cool it a bit. She's a terrifying ace pilot with a tendency towards bluntness. She even pulls Mika's armor eject trick in her first fight. Julieta is obviously on a parallel track to Mika. It's just that she's still, well, human. She doesn't have that emptiness that fuels Mikazuki, and in the end, she decides not to chase it. (Which, again, is the reason she's the last ace standing.) Her realization about Tekkadan near the end isn't just "They're human" but "There but for the grace of God..." Rustal, meanwhile, does lose a lot. His best friend, the son of a man he admired, the government system he was backing, a ton of pilots (and given his management style, probably more than a few pilots he knew by name.), and quite nearly Julieta. He wins, yes, and he's very rarely shown to be off balance, but that's more from the fact he makes it a point not to show anything than never losing. As for Gaelio, man, were you not listening to his dialog with McGillis's army? He actively apologizes to Mika while they're still mortal enemies for being a classist dick. His position is "Yeah, you don't deserve what's happening to you, this whole system is unfair, but I know what McGillis is offering you, and it's just as bullshit." I mean, when he finds out Isurugi's deal, he switches in an instant from "I hate you." to "Oh. Oh, you poor bastard." And as for deserves... when has deserves had anything to do with what happened in this show? Besides, it's not like Gaelio's the only one who got a mulligan from that fight. As for the last bit, setting aside that starting at the bottom doesn't make McGillis any less of a (n understandable, tragic, somewhat sympathetic) monster, the claim that everyone on Rustal's side started at the top ignores half the point of Julieta. Again, she's a nobody, lower in the pecking order than Ein, but Rustal saw potential and in the end, she climbs to the top. If we were seeing her story, it'd be rags to riches, where hard work and luck lets a girl rise from risking her life to just have enough to eat to being the heir apparent to Gjallarhorn. It just, you know. Isn't her story. (Ironically, Julieta is a much better fit for McGillis's claimed ideals than McGillis is. She's the nobody who rises on her own strength. He's the guy using all the symbols of old Gjallarhorn. Funny thing, that.)
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May 31, 2019 07:53
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Merilan posted:Playable Yazan was amazing in no small part because he was a giant Foresight machine so you had the final battle of V going on and everyone is being protected by Yazan armchair generalling everyone from the back telling them to watch out i'll stop these evil aliens once and for al KAMILLE IT IS I YOUR GOOD FRIEND YAZAN what KAMILLE AN ENEMY IS ABOUT TO ATTACK YOU, PLEASE DODGE IMMEDIATELY what
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May 31, 2019 08:22
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Yinlock posted:i'll stop these evil aliens once and for al HOW ARE YOU SO GOOD AT THIS did you not listen to me when i told you i really fukken love fighting, kamille Merilan fucked around with this message at 09:20 on May 31, 2019 |
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May 31, 2019 09:18
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Merilan posted:HOW ARE YOU SO GOOD AT THIS i want to see the titans meeting where they're like "alright we hate those rear end in a top hat londo bell space wizards but we're kind of balls-deep in alien invasion apocalypse right now, yazan go fight 1000 motherships in a giant space war. and jerid too i guess." jerid: what yazan: gently caress yes
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May 31, 2019 13:12
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Yazan loves murder, you just have to point him at the right target.
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May 31, 2019 14:06
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Honestly Yazan should always leave the Titans to join the group that is involved in multiple simultaneous multiversel galactic wars.
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May 31, 2019 17:00
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Ethiser posted:Honestly Yazan should always leave the Titans to join the group that is involved in multiple simultaneous multiversel galactic wars. With the understanding that this does sometimes mean he joins the main bad guy faction.
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May 31, 2019 17:14
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I just want Yazan to live his best life.
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May 31, 2019 19:07
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Ethiser posted:I just want Yazan to live his best life. How does getting clowned on by street urchins in a scrapyard zone affect his standing?
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May 31, 2019 21:11
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Yinlock posted:i want to see the titans meeting where they're like "alright we hate those rear end in a top hat londo bell space wizards but we're kind of balls-deep in alien invasion apocalypse right now, yazan go fight 1000 motherships in a giant space war. and jerid too i guess." this was basically what i loved about dynasty warriors: gundam 1 and the insane sideplot of master asia and heero yuy pottering around scheming to make jerid messa the Hero of Earth
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May 31, 2019 21:17
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Ethiser posted:I just want Yazan to live his best life. hes already got the best tattoo 
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May 31, 2019 21:23
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Legit thought that was a necklace for way too long.
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May 31, 2019 21:47
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Yinlock posted:i want to see the titans meeting where they're like "alright we hate those rear end in a top hat londo bell space wizards but we're kind of balls-deep in alien invasion apocalypse right now, yazan go fight 1000 motherships in a giant space war. and jerid too i guess." I mean, at the point in Super Robot Wars V where Yazan and Jerid possibly join you the EFA has more or less decisively lost to your army and also kind of to Neo Neo Neo Zeon and also kind of to the secret society Laplace which is lead by Nanai Miguel and Audrey Burne and Inez from Nadesico (Super Robot Wars everyone). Also the war with Zeon (which in the game's continuity has been basically going non-stop since the OYW and also Zeon has had a decisive advantage for reasons) is over because Banagher and Full Frontal had a newtype heart-to-heart then go and find out what was inside Laplace's Box, conclude it's loving stupid, and also agree that maybe we should give peace a chance. Also the world is collapsing because Cross Ange had a three series pile-up with Mazinger ZERO and Rebuild of Eva movie 2, and so ultimately your assortment of motley heroes goes over to Saotome Labs to grab the Shin Getter Dragon to use it to get into deep space, and only after that, depending on how well you did, the G-Hound unit you clowned on repeatedly is being assigned to join you in part because they're no longer needed on the homefront and in part because you've proven over and again that your fleet are probably bad enough dudes to reach Iskander. Super Robot Wars plotting is a joy to behold.
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May 31, 2019 22:14
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Omnicrom posted:I mean, at the point in Super Robot Wars V where Yazan and Jerid possibly join you the EFA has more or less decisively lost to your army and also kind of to Neo Neo Neo Zeon and also kind of to the secret society Laplace which is lead by Nanai Miguel and Audrey Burne and Inez from Nadesico (Super Robot Wars everyone). Also the war with Zeon (which in the game's continuity has been basically going non-stop since the OYW and also Zeon has had a decisive advantage for reasons) is over because Banagher and Full Frontal had a newtype heart-to-heart then go and find out what was inside Laplace's Box, conclude it's loving stupid, and also agree that maybe we should give peace a chance. Also the world is collapsing because Cross Ange had a three series pile-up with Mazinger ZERO and Rebuild of Eva movie 2, and so ultimately your assortment of motley heroes goes over to Saotome Labs to grab the Shin Getter Dragon to use it to get into deep space, and only after that, depending on how well you did, the G-Hound unit you clowned on repeatedly is being assigned to join you in part because they're no longer needed on the homefront and in part because you've proven over and again that your fleet are probably bad enough dudes to reach Iskander. This sounds loving incredible. As such, I'm guessing there is no English version and never will be?
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May 31, 2019 22:36
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Warmachine posted:This sounds loving incredible. As such, I'm guessing there is no English version and never will be? You're in luck friend, Super Robot Wars V, X and T are all translated in English and acquireable via digital download!
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May 31, 2019 22:39
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Merilan posted:You're in luck friend, Super Robot Wars V, X and T are all translated in English and acquireable via digital download! Or you can get a physical copy off Amazon if you can't find it.
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May 31, 2019 22:43
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