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Snowman_McK posted:I don't think this is the intended reading. I just think, like huge chunks of this lovely franchise, they didn't think about the implications and 'exporting our problems away from us' has been the standard modus operandi of the developed world for a couple of centuries. Alternative theory: You don't actually think that.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:47
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I mean, his two forays into Africa on one he had to be mind controlled into hulking out, and in Wakanda he couldn't even manage at all. Maybe the secret code all along was that he just gets really angry around white people.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:52
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Brother Entropy posted:well for one it's a take that has to ignore that banner never hulks out in those megacities, only when he keeps getting dragged back to this avengers bs. if we believe banner when he says that he's 'always angry' it stands to reason that helping those 'poor brown people' also helps him channel that anger to more productive goals than just smashing everything around him He hulks out in Rio because some random dudes punch him. That happens a few minutes before the black ops team finds him. TK-42-1 posted:It couldn’t possibly be trying to get away from the western world and simultaneously do good in poor communities while still having access to what he wants. No sir. Must be racism. again why in a city where there are millions of people and a dozen kilometeres between you and empty space?
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Jun 4, 2019 01:52
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TK-42-1 posted:It couldn’t possibly be trying to get away from the western world and simultaneously do good in poor communities while still having access to what he wants. No sir. Must be racism.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:03
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There are places that aren't the western world where he could help poor communities that are not slums with 100 thousand people right in the middle of a city of 12 million. The odd part is that they specify that he's in Rochina, which has a population of 100 thousand with extremly high population density and is right in the middle of Rio. You can tell they sort of realised this and, when he Hulks out, they just smash cut to him suddenly in a quiet forest, ignoring how the gently caress he did that.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:07
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The vast majority of the problem with this discussion is that there's a lot of ascribing ill intent in every possible way and also a lot of demanding implausible amounts of Realism in a fictional story and then berating the characters for not being Realistic enough as if that was the intent of the story. It's Cinemasins level discussion that feels like it's more interesting in playing Gotcha than anything else. Like it can be fun to overthink a film but that doesn't change the fact that going 'well think about the message they're sending!!" loses a lot when you need five different steps to reach that message and at least one of them is "this fictional story about comic book characters puts a higher priority on drama over realistic character behavior."
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Jun 4, 2019 02:10
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Snowman_McK posted:There are places that aren't the western world where he could help poor communities that are not slums with 100 thousand people right in the middle of a city of 12 million. Did you know that sometimes characters in movies do things and go places for the aesthetics of the film rather than any more meaningful reason than what is presented to you on screen about their character really makes you think
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Jun 4, 2019 02:12
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ImpAtom posted:Like it can be fun to overthink a film but that doesn't change the fact that going 'well think about the message they're sending!!" loses a lot when you need five different steps to reach that message 'a living superweapon is hiding in a giant city' is actually only one step. Two if you count suffixing that with 'and that's kind of hosed up' this isn't over reading it, this is just noticing the situation that they wrote, which runs counter to every other take where Banner actually isolates himself in small town America (the tv series) the jungle (the end of Ang Lee's film) or the Canadian wilderness (the movie that starts with him in a city district with a population density of 70,000/square kilometre) JBP posted:Did you know that sometimes characters in movies do things and go places for the aesthetics of the film rather than any more meaningful reason than what is presented to you on screen about their character really makes you think Now remind me to turn my brain off.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:14
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Snowman_McK posted:Now remind me to turn my brain off. I'm asking you to turn it on. The locations do what they need to in a sense that they are - Far from western authorities he wishes to avoid Proximate to technology or resources In need of banner's skills, he can do good guy things for people using his knowledge (which is a power essentially) Places somewhat familiar to the audience so the slowest walker still gets it The locations are not - Selected to maximise potential brown death
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Jun 4, 2019 02:17
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JBP posted:I'm asking you to turn it on. I really hate to quote myself but... Snowman_McK posted:There are places that aren't the western world where he could help poor communities that are not slums with 100 thousand people right in the middle of a city of 12 million. I mean, the resources he needs are a computer and internet access. Does he have a centrifuge or something as well? Do you think those are especially easy to get in Rochina?
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Jun 4, 2019 02:18
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nvm You have your usual hyper-negative reading
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Jun 4, 2019 02:19
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So...like...outskirts of the city, for instance, rather than two minutes away from two of the most visited tourist spots in the world? Again, they specify Rochina for whatever reason, which is right next to Christ the Redeemer and Ipanema beach. There are less conspicuous places...like, basically anywhere else in Brazil, for instance.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:20
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Snowman_McK posted:'a living superweapon is hiding in a giant city' is actually only one step. Two if you count suffixing that with 'and that's kind of hosed up' I see so your argument is that it's okay for The Hulk to be in places with some people but there's a specific number of people who make it unacceptable? What number of people is that, I'm curious? You seem to be arguing "WHAT IF HE HULKS OUT" but you're okay if he hulks out in other places?
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Jun 4, 2019 02:21
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ImpAtom posted:I see so your argument is that it's okay for The Hulk to be in places with some people but there's a specific number of people who make it unacceptable? What number of people is that, I'm curious? No, obviously it's not okay if he hulks out in other places. But in the centre of a city of 12 million people is about the worst place he possibly could. There is no empty space that isn't full of people in any goddamn direction. For someone looking to hide out, it's a loving terrible choice, for someone looking to minimise the risk he is fuly aware that he poses, it's the worst choice. Also, I'm not sure you can really say I'm overreading thinks or overthinking them when the first answer was 'he's hiding in a massive city near two heavily tourist spots so people don't find him' or 'he needs to hide in a brazilian favela so that he has access to advanced medical equipment, which is obviously something that's easier to get in a brazilian favela.' Those are two massive reaches. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 02:25
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Snowman_McK posted:No, obviously it's not okay if he hulks out in other places. But in the centre of a city of 12 million people is about the worst place he possibly could. There is no empty space that isn't full of people in any goddamn direction. For someone looking to hide out, it's a loving terrible choice, for someone looking to minimise the risk he is fuly aware that he poses, it's the worst choice. The thing you ignore is that in your other examples he also Hulks out. There's also a perfect valid reason to pick a crowded place. (Multiple people have given them to you, and hiding out as one dude among millions is much easier than hiding out as one dude in a small out of the way place.) There is also still the fact that you are hyper-focused on Tactical Realism when that is genuinely not what the vast majority of films focus on nor are they expected to and if you're intent on going for the negative reading it becomes genuinely tiresome not because you're 'using your brain' but because you're using your brain to focus on, as I mentioned, Cinemasins style stuff. It's extra tedious because in the case of every conversation about this stuff, the focus is entirely on something you're trying to prove is Objectively Bad and you don't hold any other fiction up to the same standards. (Something easily proven by clicking on Post History and showing you're not actually interested in discussing this same level of thing for films you enjoy or even for non-film things you enjoy.) It's pretty hard to buy that you have Genuine Actual Concerns and not that you're trying to nitpick something you dislike to Prove Why It's Bad when you can look at the rest of your post history and ~mysteriously~ you have directly contradictory opinions.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:45
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Noticing the literal events of the film and contrasting them with the fundamental nature of the character isn't really nitpicking. The thing is, 'the aesthetics and flavour of a Brazilian favela add to the film, implications be damned' is a perfectly adequate defence of the choice. My point was entirely 'they didn't think this through' and this is true of shitloads of stuff in the MCU because they're all made quickly on a conveyer belt by mercenaries. If they have an ideology, it's a bland neo-liberal comfort with late stage capitalism, in which 'we'll export our problems to the third world' is pretty standard You've got you and a few others tying yourselves in knots trying to prove that a white english speaking American doctor would be really inconspicuous in a Brazilian favela, a place he needs to be to have access to medical equipment. I'm not the one overthinking things or trying to hammer them into a particular shape that they don't fit.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:54
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Snowman_McK posted:Noticing the literal events of the film and contrasting them with the fundamental nature of the character isn't really nitpicking. The thing is, 'the aesthetics and flavour of a Brazilian favela add to the film, implications be damned' is a perfectly adequate defence of the choice. My point was entirely 'they didn't think this through' and this is true of shitloads of stuff in the MCU because they're all made quickly on a conveyer belt by mercenaries. If they have an ideology, it's a bland neo-liberal comfort with late stage capitalism, in which 'we'll export our problems to the third world' is pretty standard Ah yes, once again retreating to the Internet Buzzwords in an attempt to appear intelligent and thoughtful without actually living the things you claim to. (Again easily provable by looking at your post history.) Because by whining about neo-liberalism you don't actually have to apply the same thought processes to other things you enjoy.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:59
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ImpAtom posted:Ah yes, once again retreating to the Internet Buzzwords in an attempt to appear intelligent and thoughtful without actually living the things you claim to. (Again easily provable by looking at your post history.) Because by whining about neo-liberalism you don't actually have to apply the same thought processes to other things you enjoy. Like what? Also, did you just call 'late stage capitalism' a buzzword?
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Jun 4, 2019 02:59
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Snowman_McK posted:Like what? No. I called you using it a buzzword. It's a real genuine issue but you only care about it enough to throw it out when discussing movies. And seriously? The majority of your posts are about comic book movies and action films (which are churned out by hired directors to make money, no matter how much you like to pretend otherwise) or UFC, which is a massively violence real-world sport which leaves its participants badly injured on regular occasions and is treated (much like football) as something to 'aspire' to despite the fact that it's violence for the sake of making rich people richer at the cost of others. But no, I'm sure you ~genuinely care~ about Late Stage Capitalism which is why you're so upset that Warner Bros didn't make more money off a Superman film because people were mean, because you care about the damage of late-stage capitalism.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:06
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ImpAtom posted:No. I called you using it a buzzword. It's a real genuine issue but you only care about it enough to throw it out when discussing movies. So...presumably, you do care about this genuine issue, but you're also blithe to the MCU espousing its central tenets and will actually bend over backwards to defend its depiction of those tenets and indeed attack people who critcise them...is that a high ground in your mind? I mean, we were discussing the text of the film, not the process that created it, which is hosed, like the creation of all mass media, and dependent on exploitation, like the creation of mass media. It's hosed all the way down, but that's not much of a defence of the Incredible Hulk, which is bland, forgettable film with some hosed up implications.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:11
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Snowman_McK posted:Hanging out in the middle of the largest cities on earth, filled with tens of millions of people, when you're a living weapon of mass destruction who can barely control what you do, seems a lot shittier. He can control it, just not when in the presence of the mind gem + explosions. edit: Sorry I thought you were talking about when he was in India in Avengers 1
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Jun 4, 2019 03:13
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Away all Goats posted:He can control it, just not when in the presence of the mind gem + explosions. or a bald middle aged man punching him in the stomach twice.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:14
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Snowman_McK posted:So...presumably, you do care about this genuine issue, but you're also blithe to the MCU espousing its central tenets and will actually bend over backwards to defend its depiction of those tenets and indeed attack people who critcise them...is that a high ground in your mind? Nope. I'm freely willing to admit that the MCU (and indeed *most fiction*) is hugely lovely and espouses terrible things. It sucks, I'd like it to change, and I go out of my way to support things that don't. I also don't pretend like the things I'm enjoying are somehow different. Like, look, I love Superheroes. I grew up reading comics. I think they are genuinely fun and enjoy. I also am willing to say that the very concept of Superheroes is lovely. Almost every single superhero supports some degree of genuinely awful poo poo. It is innate to the concept and there's no avoiding it, no matter how much you try. Superheroes by their nature glorify vigilante violence and because they are stuck so deep in 40s-era mindsets usually means that well-off American men and women are the ones enacting the violence on 'undesireables.' They stigmatize mental illness and treat it as a bad thing. They popularize the idea of 'othering' up to and including the ever popular 'non-humans are actually basically the same as animals' mindset. I can go on and on and on about how crappy superheroes as a concept are and I won't pretend they're not. Likewise I enjoy video games and holy poo poo most of them are genuinely awful and hosed up. I'm not going to pretend like they're not. But if I want to discuss the aspects I like of video games, I have to acknowledge that after a certain point harping on about it just turns everything negative and renders all conversations adversarial. This doesn't mean the topic never can be broached but at very least it gets pretty hypocritical if it only gets broached about things I personally don't enjoy. Discussing the subject matter is one thing but when the discussion only happens with a desire to be negative about things I dislike, that isn't trying to discuss the issues, it's trying to Objectively Prove Why Things I Dislike Is Bad. If you wanted to discuss these things genuinely then I don't think there'd be an issue, but it doesn't feel like you do or that you're being super confrontational about a specific thing you dislike. (And it's fine to dislike the MCU films!) but when it just comes down to Cinemasinsing (and I'm sorry to keep using that term but I can't think of a better was to encapsulate the lovely trend) then it isn't really a discussing, it's just trying to point out that most movies espouse really lovely things when you analyze then to a certain level.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:24
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ImpAtom posted:Nope. I'm freely willing to admit that the MCU (and indeed *most fiction*) is hugely lovely and espouses terrible things. It sucks, I'd like it to change, and I go out of my way to support things that don't. I also don't pretend like the things I'm enjoying are somehow different. ImpAtom posted:it's trying to Objectively Prove Why Things I Dislike Is Bad. ImpAtom posted:If you wanted to discuss these things genuinely then I don't think there'd be an issue, but it doesn't feel like you do or that you're being super confrontational about a specific thing you dislike. (And it's fine to dislike the MCU films!) but when it just comes down to Cinemasinsing (and I'm sorry to keep using that term but I can't think of a better was to encapsulate the lovely trend) then it isn't really a discussing, it's just trying to point out that most movies espouse really lovely things when you analyze then to a certain level. I don't think you know what Cinemasins does. They don't overthink things. They don't even think about them at all. They just notice a thing, say that out loud ("What, he's wearing a hat now?") and mark that up as a 'sin' until they have enough for a monetised video. I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. You don't disagree that the MCU is full of lovely things, you don't disagree (presumably) that that choice has some worrying implications, so...what have we been talking about? I mean, you've been trying to objectively prove that I don't actually care, which is a weird choice when you're also complaining about people not engaging in genuine discussion.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:31
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Snowman_McK posted:I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. You don't disagree that the MCU is full of lovely things, you don't disagree (presumably) that that choice has some worrying implications, so...what have we been talking about? Because you're not engaging in genuine discussion. You're being relentlessly negative in a very specific way. You seem to think you're not being as obvious as you are but your behavior is literally identical to the people who've been doing DC vs Marvel for decades now, and it's very obvious that is what you're doing here which is why you care about this subject matter only when it comes to the MCU. I gave it a genuine shot to see if you'd shift to actual discussion instead of "PROVE THIS SCENE ISN'T TERRIBLE" stuff but you won't, despite the fact in other threads you're perfectly comfortable accusing people of lying and being dishonest about other films when they do the exact same thing. So hey, I gave it a shot. v  v
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Jun 4, 2019 03:40
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ImpAtom posted:Because you're not engaging in genuine discussion. You're being relentlessly negative in a very specific way. You seem to think you're not being as obvious as you are but your behavior is literally identical to the people who've been doing DC vs Marvel for decades now, and it's very obvious that is what you're doing here which is why you care about this subject matter only when it comes to the MCU. I'm not being relentlessly negative. The only people I've argued with are people who were trying to prove the lovely implications of a lovely scene weren't there. I'm not trying to prove the scene or the film is bad. There's quite a lot to like about Incredible Hulk. LeTerrier gets a bit of flair in, and the scene where the commandoes corner him in the factory is a genuinely well shot and edited secen. Tim Roth is great, obviously, because he's Tim Roth. This whole discussion has come about because I pointed out a troubling implication of a scene, and a bunch of people rushed to try and prove it wasn't there, including you, who tried to shift the discussion to my post history, so don't push the 'i just want a real conversation' Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 03:43
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Snowman_McK posted:I'm not being relentlessly negative. The only people I've argued with are people who were trying to prove the lovely implications of a lovely scene weren't there. Actually that is exactly why I did that. Because shockingly people on the internet don't have real conversations sometimes, they're more interested in something else and looking at post histories is a good way to see that. I would like a real conversation. You don't seem interested, you just keep going back to "DEFEND THIS lovely SCENE" but if someone asked you the same about a movie you like you'd start calling them liars, saying they didn't watch the same films, or start nitpicking minutia. (And this isn't hypothetical because again, your post history!) And yes, I am shifting it to your post history because I don't believe you are arguing genuinely and so responding to your question (after multiple other people already have) is pointless because you're not asking it in good faith.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:50
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ImpAtom posted:And yes, I am shifting it to your post history because I don't believe you are arguing genuinely and so responding to your question (after multiple other people already have) is pointless because you're not asking it in good faith. Dude, the answer people provided to 'why is he hiding in a brazilian favela?' was 'he needs medical equipment' And you're saying i'm not arguing in good faith? It's not even a scene, dude. It's the offscreen decision a character makes. Those often make no sense (like the Ghostbusters becoming frauds between the first and second film, for instance) and this is just one of those. Because if they had a scene where Bruce Banner says 'I, a living superweapon who's also looking to stay off the grid, am going to stay in one of the largest cities in the world right next to two of the most visited tourist spots in the world, in a place where i don't look or sound like the locals' the audience would walk out. But, if you just cut to him there, the audience accepts it, because once something is off screen, you get a lot of leeway. Sergio Leone, for instance, was brilliant at this trick, to the point that nothing not in the frame even exists. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 03:54
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This is getting weird, probably stick to talking about the movies instead of perusing people's post histories to accuse them of posting in bad faith?
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Jun 4, 2019 03:57
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Snowman_McK posted:Dude, the answer people provided to 'why is he hiding in a brazilian favela?' was 'he needs medical equipment' Is that the only answer people gave? or is it just the only one you want to pretend people gave? I understand that pretending makes it easier for you to call Banner a racist, but I feel like you're selectively forgetting a lot to have this conversation, which is pretty indicative of arguing in bad faith.
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Jun 4, 2019 03:58
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Zodiac5000 posted:Is that the only answer people gave? or is it just the only one you want to pretend people gave? I understand that pretending makes it easier for you to call Banner a racist, but I feel like you're selectively forgetting a lot to have this conversation, which is pretty indicative of arguing in bad faith. No, people absolutely said other stuff. That's just the funniest one since it's the most obviously absurd one. The one about going incognito is also absurd, but less dramatically so. I'm rewatching it, and it's a really pretty movie. I can see why they picked the favela from a film making perspective. They put a lot of work into capturing the place's flavour and odd geometry. I don't know if you can owe that to it being pre-'Marvel house style' or not being fully an MCU film. Either way, flicking to random scenes yields some good shots, especially in their use of darkness. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 03:59
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ImpAtom posted:And yes, I am shifting it to your post history because I don't believe you are arguing genuinely and so responding to your question (after multiple other people already have) is pointless because you're not asking it in good faith. Extremely normal.
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Jun 4, 2019 04:44
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Zodiac5000 posted:Is that the only answer people gave? or is it just the only one you want to pretend people gave? I understand that pretending makes it easier for you to call Banner a racist, but I feel like you're selectively forgetting a lot to have this conversation, which is pretty indicative of arguing in bad faith. This is silly. Banner's no more of a racist than your typical first world capitalist. The exploitation of the third world marches to only one color. Green. What color is the Hulk again?
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Jun 4, 2019 05:08
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TK-42-1 posted:tbh Hemsworth is one of the bright things to come out of the mcu project. He’s so good. We all knew Evans and RDJ were good but ragnarok really brought out the talent. Jedit posted:Hemsworth is out of contract, but he has said that he'd love to do Asgardians of the Galaxy. Maybe Gunn will keep him in.  I'd imagine he would like him in considering the tone of current Thor at least comes close to the tone of the Guardians of the Galaxy.
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Jun 4, 2019 08:42
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Darth TNT posted:Agreed. I saw something about guardians 3 framed as story info that didn't mention him but who knows what bullshit it was.
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Jun 4, 2019 09:16
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Roth was good but otherwise Incredible Hulk was pretty bad in the same way most early 2000s comic book films were bad. It always surprises me to remember it's technically part of the MCU.
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Jun 4, 2019 10:10
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Darth TNT posted:Agreed. Dear god I can only hope! Hemsworth is a treasure. Snowman_McK posted:Noticing the literal events of the film and contrasting them with the fundamental nature of the character isn't really nitpicking. The thing is, 'the aesthetics and flavour of a Brazilian favela add to the film, implications be damned' is a perfectly adequate defence of the choice. My point was entirely 'they didn't think this through' and this is true of shitloads of stuff in the MCU because they're all made quickly on a conveyer belt by mercenaries. Jokes aside, this sentiment I can certainly get behind way more than the "Bruce is a racist" take, which for me would require much more in the way of on-screen evidence to support. By the by, noticing (and chatting about) literal events of the film was exactly what I was doing in the past several pages of AoU chat, and I had a similar amount of people up my rear end about it, so I can relate there.
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Jun 4, 2019 14:07
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Thor just looks right fat. They should keep that for sure.
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Jun 4, 2019 15:32
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Bruce was very excited for the World Cup and Rio Olympics so he went down a few years earlier to learn the language but he lost his passport so he couldn’t get back to America. he hulked out once when he was in Brazil prior to the events of the movie, when he learned he couldn’t get front row tickets to the World Cup final (as mentioned in GUIDEBOOK TO THE MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE - MARVEL’S INCREDIBLE HULK, available on Marvel Unlimited)
Bard Maddox fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 18:05
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Bard Maddox posted:Bruce was very excited for the World Cup and Rio Olympics so he went down a few years earlier to learn the language but he lost his passport so he couldn’t get back to America. he hulked out once when he was in Brazil prior to the events of the movie, when he learned he couldn’t get front row tickets to the World Cup final (as mentioned in GUIDEBOOK TO THE MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE - MARVEL’S INCREDIBLE HULK, available on Marvel Unlimited) I'm just going to pretend this is real, please do not disabuse me of this notion.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:44
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