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I'm sure the Chinese have already shown Russia the F-35 designs and they had a good laugh together.
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Jun 8, 2019 19:05
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In a brilliant move the US allowed China to acquire classified American technology, setting back China's aerospace industry by several decades.
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Jun 8, 2019 19:43
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YoursTruly posted:This might be a dumb question, but why is the US military so bothered by Turkey purchasing the S-400? Because reducing your rivals' market for high tech weapons exports is good.
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Jun 8, 2019 20:04
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OhFunny posted:I'm sure the Chinese have already shown Russia the F-35 designs and they had a good laugh together. There's still a difference between seeing the design, which you're probably right about, vs having powerful sensors monitoring the thing's capabilities in flight and figuring out countermeasures.
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Jun 8, 2019 21:12
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Sinteres posted:One thing that surprises me is that the regime never really seemed to develop a large core of battle hardened elite troops that could fill the gap left behind when Hezbollah (and, I assume, at least significant numbers of the Shia militia fighters from Iraq) withdrew given that the war has gone on for nearly a decade and they've had plenty of time to develop internal capabilities. Obviously the Tiger Forces were supposed to be those guys, but I haven't seen much at all about them in the recent back and forth offensives, and my understanding as of a year or two ago is that the label was always as much a propaganda tool as a real thing. Like they legitimately were the best the regime had to offer, and performed well against the rebels and ISIS, but as an actual existing group they were smaller than people would have guessed. Even as a small group only used situationally though, they seem to be more or less absent in the news at this point. Consider how much every competent Iraqi unit was completely gutted in terms of combat effectiveness/manpower just retaking the first city from ISIS. That street fighting urban battle poo poo with huge casualties and burnout the regime engaged in over and over and over and over again. The other factors are surely part of it, but that is definitely the big one. Assad was throwing anyone who seemed fighting strength into the meat grinder non-stop for half of a decade.
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Jun 8, 2019 21:42
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Helsing posted:In a brilliant move the US allowed China to acquire classified American technology, setting back China's aerospace industry by several decades. The project is deserving of the jokes and all but its not like rival powers will be unable to make sense of the tech, learn to counter it, and then replicate it in some formats that aren't the avatar of expensive lovely compromises.
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Jun 8, 2019 21:51
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The F15, one of the most successful programmes ever, started it's life with severe engine problems and an ejection design so bad that an Israeli air force pilot preferred to try and land it with one wing rather than eject. And on more relevance to this thread,the guardian has an article about how the regime is confiscating or destroying the property of essentially Sunni refugees. So yeah that dam is going to be great for regime supporters and for homeless non supporters in Jordanian camps with nothing to return to.
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Jun 8, 2019 22:34
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Saying that the majority of the Syrian population are de facto "regime supporters" just because they live in government controlled areas and using that as a justification for acts of collective punishment - i.e. arguing that they don't deserve to have functioning utilities - is really gross and it's sad how normalized that attitude is among the regular posters within this thread.
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Jun 8, 2019 22:50
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Helsing posted:Saying that the majority of the Syrian population are de facto "regime supporters" just because they live in government controlled areas and using that as a justification for acts of collective punishment - i.e. arguing that they don't deserve to have functioning utilities - is really gross and it's sad how normalized that attitude is among the regular posters within this thread. but most of the regular posters think it is good utilities are being restored?
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Jun 8, 2019 22:55
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Helsing posted:Saying that the majority of the Syrian population are de facto "regime supporters" just because they live in government controlled areas and using that as a justification for acts of collective punishment - i.e. arguing that they don't deserve to have functioning utilities - is really gross and it's sad how normalized that attitude is among the regular posters within this thread. People complain about a bunch of dead civilians from bombardment of civilian population centers and you come in here with this bullshit. You're a joke
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Jun 8, 2019 23:44
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Squalid posted:but most of the regular posters think it is good utilities are being restored? Well then they are remaining very tight lipped about that opinion while a loud and prominent minority of posters angrily pushes back against the idea that Syria's largest dam going back online could be anything except a humanitarian disaster. Herstory Begins Now posted:People complain about a bunch of dead civilians from bombardment of civilian population centers and you come in here with this bullshit. You're a joke Well, first of all I believe the complaint about about the demolition of homes in formerly rebel held areas that have been retaken by the government, not aerial bombardments. Secondly, I don't care how outraged you want to get, that post as written is equating any non-Sunni and non-displaced Syrian as a "regime supporter" and implying that therefore any improvement quality of life for Syrians will only be going to the implicitly bad Syrians who don't deserve such things. That's hardly a neutral expression of concern about civilians.
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Jun 9, 2019 00:01
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Helsing posted:that post as written is equating any non-Sunni and non-displaced Syrian as a "regime supporter" and implying that therefore any improvement quality of life for Syrians will only be going to the implicitly bad Syrians who don't deserve such things Which post? Don't know about other readers but I would love to be able to assess your interpretation of whatever it is you are responding to. As written your own post seems to come out of nowhere and have no bearing on the discussion occurring between it and your previous post in the same page.
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Jun 9, 2019 00:06
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Helsing posted:Well then they are remaining very tight lipped about that opinion while a loud and prominent minority of posters angrily pushes back against the idea that Syria's largest dam going back online could be anything except a humanitarian disaster. If you have beef wit Volkerball just say so man. Don’t do this straw man bullshit and point fingers at ill defined concepts like “thread regulars” that won’t fight back. Any reasonable definition of thread regulars included you too I might add. I consider the rhetorical technique of denouncing the thread’s opinions to be one of supreme cowardice, since it frees one of the responsibility of addressing specific points and plays to feelings of identity or solidarity rather than reason.
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Jun 9, 2019 00:16
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Re Turkey: Sultan Bey is anxious about the economy doing a whoopsy, which is why he keeps up with Russia. The USA is equally hated and revered, so if the economy goes to poo poo, the only way to keep his position is to have US actively gently caress up Turkey. The population has been primed for at least two years with "foreign forces wage economic war against us". All that's necessary is for Trump to do a thing. Then, it's no longer anyones fault but USA/NSA/Israel. And who promises strength against such onslaught? The geriatric CHP? The "Kurdish party"? Or the AKP who did their best to keep progress going and certaintly did so, until "foreign forces" intervened. This is a parachute strategy.
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Jun 9, 2019 02:02
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Consider how much every competent Iraqi unit was completely gutted in terms of combat effectiveness/manpower just retaking the first city from ISIS. That street fighting urban battle poo poo with huge casualties and burnout the regime engaged in over and over and over and over again. On a related topic, does anyone know how Hezbollah is doing these days? They fought hard, and died hard in Syria for a bunch of years. This can yield a battle-hardened force full of veterans, or a force gutted by attrition. Plus a lot of the fighting was guerilla style which is notoriously hard on armed forces.
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Jun 9, 2019 02:14
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Count Roland posted:On a related topic, does anyone know how Hezbollah is doing these days? They fought hard, and died hard in Syria for a bunch of years. This can yield a battle-hardened force full of veterans, or a force gutted by attrition. Plus a lot of the fighting was guerilla style which is notoriously hard on armed forces. I feel like I've seen articles that cite both sides of that as reasons why Hezbollah and Israel are unlikely to fight any time soon: Hezbollah wants time to rebuild its strength, apparently did have manpower issues for a while there at least, and its reputation took a blow both in Lebanon and abroad, so they don't want the risk of provoking a conflict right away, but Israel is wary of jumping into a new war with a group that just had a ton of battlefield experience, fought alongside Russian advisors, and which probably managed to smuggle a fair amount of equipment back to Lebanon despite Israel's bombing raids. Israel attacking them is the one thing that might repair Hezbollah's reputation in the region too, though even that might not move the needle now that the Gulf States and Egypt are closer than ever to Israel.
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Jun 9, 2019 04:24
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According to The Intercept, Heshmat Alavi, an activist who has been writing for Forbes, The Hill, but also The Daily Caller and The Federalist, is actually an account run by an MEK group in Albania. They seem to be basing this on several named sources, including Hassan Heyrani, a high-ranking MEK defector (isn't that a weird term to use for someone who used to be a member of a non-governmental group?); and Sara Zahiri, a researcher with sources in Iranian cybersecurity.
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 9, 2019 |
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Jun 9, 2019 16:43
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Edit: beaten
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Jun 9, 2019 16:50
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Which post? Don't know about other readers but I would love to be able to assess your interpretation of whatever it is you are responding to. As written your own post seems to come out of nowhere and have no bearing on the discussion occurring between it and your previous post in the same page. Honestly, rereading my post today it comes off as shrill so I won't try to claim its an example of great posting. Still, since you ask, I was thinking of the post immediately proceeding mine: Unimpressed posted:And on more relevance to this thread,the guardian has an article about how the regime is confiscating or destroying the property of essentially Sunni refugees. So yeah that dam is going to be great for regime supporters and for homeless non supporters in Jordanian camps with nothing to return to. I read this in the context of posters like Volkerball, Grape, Herstory Begins Now and Kaal all more or less endorsing Charles Lister's take on the dam, or at least pushing back on any criticism of Lister. The implied (or occasionally explicit) argument seems to be that it's better for Syria to be a failed state than for a definitive end to the war that sees Assad still in power.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:31
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Helsing posted:Honestly, rereading my post today it comes off as shrill so I won't try to claim its an example of great posting. Still, since you ask, I was thinking of the post immediately proceeding mine: I think their larger argument is that Syria under Assad is still a failed state, the dam will just help electrify some parts of it. We don't really live in a world where the alternatives are Successful Syria under Assad on the one hand and Forverwar Failed Syria on the other. Just think of how the place is going to look when the millions of refugees are kicked back to Syria because Assad's legitimacy makes it "safe".
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Jun 9, 2019 17:38
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Helsing i don't know why you needed to restart this conversation after it had already run its course but restoring electricity is obviously good. The idea that the YPG has a responsibility to wage forever war against Assad is weird and makes little sense.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:28
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Welcome to the weird world of Helsing's posting in defense of russian military actions using the weirdest non-sequiturs imaginable.
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Jun 9, 2019 19:11
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https://twitter.com/obretix/status/1137473432499699713
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Jun 9, 2019 19:27
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think their larger argument is that Syria under Assad is still a failed state, the dam will just help electrify some parts of it. We don't really live in a world where the alternatives are Successful Syria under Assad on the one hand and Forverwar Failed Syria on the other. Just think of how the place is going to look when the millions of refugees are kicked back to Syria because Assad's legitimacy makes it "safe". Yeah and that argument isn't wrong - the scars of the war will persist for generations. I doubt the government even wants most of those refugees to return - the tens of thousands of displaced Sunnis from opposition controlled areas, many of which the government is currently demolishing with bulldozers, certainly won't be encouraged to return. While people will be overwhelmingly better off with the fighting stopped there will still be winners and losers in the war's aftermath and for a lot of people that means the end of the war isn't the end of their suffering. That doesn't mean that the end of the war, or the return of something resembling normalcy for more and more of the country, is not a good thing. My frustration here is that I see a lot of the hallmarks of the disingenuous humanitarianism-via-bombs ideology that guys like Lister use to agitate for further military action. If you can convince people that the peace is no better than the war then sure, we might as well continue low scale interventions into places like Syria or Iraq indefinitely. The result, intended or not, is to normalize periodic attacks on Syrian infrastructure or government property and to give outside governments free reign to continue exacerbating the conflict and trying to steer it in favour of their local allies. Since I think more bombing is unlikely to accomplish anything other than making everyone in the region worse off, I think its important to pushback against people advocating that there's no way teh status quo in Syria could get worse, or, conversely, arguing that a functioning power grid in Syria would only actually benefit regime supporters (i.e. people who implicitly share the crimes of the Assad regime that hey support). Squalid posted:Helsing i don't know why you needed to restart this conversation after it had already run its course but restoring electricity is obviously good. The idea that the YPG has a responsibility to wage forever war against Assad is weird and makes little sense. Because these conversations about what kind of end game is actually desirable in Syria seem like an important and relevant topic, and I'm not sure what the harm is on a Sunday afternoon when there isn't much else being discussed anyway?
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Jun 9, 2019 20:08
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Cant wait for the next round of rebellion in syria. This time fueled by none other than Turkey and Russia
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Jun 9, 2019 20:10
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I see this type of thing posted frequently. I don’t really see a problem with it. These buildings and neighbourhoods are bombed out husks, and people shouldn’t be living in them. You don’t just throw some rebar and concrete at a collapsed building, you demolish it. Same goes for these besieged rocketed, barrel bombed neighbourhoods. The alternative is either leaving the ruins there, or getting rid of them, doesn’t seem evil or crazy to me. By all means take issue with how it got destroyed in the first place, but don’t act like this is another unique piece of savagery from the regime aimed at keeping people out forever.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:37
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Coldwar timewarp posted:I see this type of thing posted frequently. I don’t really see a problem with it. It's also pulling down non damaged housing because the regime has a goal to dispossess likely troublesome people and disperse them so that they cant concentrate in hotspots of resistance. As far as I understand the regime also intends to build new state controlled housing too, but I guess it will be done in such a way that it's easier to suppress, so tiny neighborhoods with nice clear firing lines?
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Jun 9, 2019 22:05
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Zudgemud posted:It's also pulling down non damaged housing because the regime has a goal to dispossess likely troublesome people and disperse them so that they cant concentrate in hotspots of resistance. As far as I understand the regime also intends to build new state controlled housing too, but I guess it will be done in such a way that it's easier to suppress, so tiny neighborhoods with nice clear firing lines? Wonder who's Assad's Huassmann.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:48
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Coldwar timewarp posted:I see this type of thing posted frequently. I don’t really see a problem with it. It's a lot more sinister than that.
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Jun 9, 2019 23:41
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Coldwar timewarp posted:I see this type of thing posted frequently. I don’t really see a problem with it. All the people who lived there are going to get "rehoused" in a mass grave.
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Jun 10, 2019 00:00
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Helsing posted:Yeah and that argument isn't wrong - the scars of the war will persist for generations. I doubt the government even wants most of those refugees to return - the tens of thousands of displaced Sunnis from opposition controlled areas, many of which the government is currently demolishing with bulldozers, certainly won't be encouraged to return. While people will be overwhelmingly better off with the fighting stopped there will still be winners and losers in the war's aftermath and for a lot of people that means the end of the war isn't the end of their suffering. That doesn't mean that the end of the war, or the return of something resembling normalcy for more and more of the country, is not a good thing. The view of downtown Damascus from the suburbs that were home to major protests against the regime, Oct. 2013.  The power grid only benefits people who support the regime by design. It is a tool of oppression, just as any tool is in the hands of an oppressor. You 100% would not be making this point in a case of Israel solidifying control in Gaza. If you didn't have these dastardly regime change ghouls to oppose you wouldn't have an ideology at all. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 07:44
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Volkerball posted:The view of downtown Damascus from the suburbs that were home to major protests against the regime, Oct. 2013. So you feel the same way about Idlib? It's run by Islamic extremists. Any aid or help is only going to benefit those supporting the extremists and likely be used as a tool to maintain their power too.
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Jun 10, 2019 09:52
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axelord posted:So you feel the same way about Idlib? It's run by Islamic extremists. Any aid or help is only going to benefit those supporting the extremists and likely be used as a tool to maintain their power too. Much like Gaza, Idlib isn't "controlled." The UN's special envoy to Syria estimated that there were 10,000 al-Qaeda linked militants in Idlib province. A province who's population has ballooned to nearly 3 million. Every street in Idlib has its own political culture. Some are rooted deeply with extremists, but others have elected local councils, civil society groups with influence, and have stood up against extremism. They face persecution, but logistically speaking, these sorts of groups have the cracks in the system they need to survive, and they do have local militias that fight on their behalf. It took like 6 years to kill Raed Fares, who has been the most prominent face of such movements since the beginning, and who always stood front and center. The movements he sparked still operate in the shadows. But it should be noted that it's places like Kafranbel, and the areas of operation of different civil society groups that get targeted the heaviest by both the Assad regime, and the extremists. The empowerment of either accomplishes the same thing with regards to them. The snuffing out of the only light in the country. The destruction of the last cradles of democracy and freedom in Syria.
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Jun 10, 2019 10:38
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Helsing posted:I read this in the context of posters like Volkerball, Grape, Herstory Begins Now and Kaal all more or less endorsing Charles Lister's take on the dam, or at least pushing back on any criticism of Lister. The implied (or occasionally explicit) argument seems to be that it's better for Syria to be a failed state than for a definitive end to the war that sees Assad still in power. I'm not going to attempt to speak for anyone else here, but I think that you're missing a lot of nuance here in trying to sweep together a bunch of different opinions. My take, in brief, is that it's foolish to try to parse this sort of stuff into unvarnished good or bad. A dam being reconstructed is good, that energy being used by a warlord to entrench a fairly evil ethnostate is bad. Some people getting power is good, some people being expressly denied power in order to compel them is bad. It's wise to accept that there aren't any actually good outcomes here. There's certainly nothing worth cheering on like you seem to be doing.
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Jun 10, 2019 14:50
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My entire position is 'warcrimes and violence against civilians are bad and should be called out and condemned regardless of who is doing them.' Helsing always just kramers into threads with some fresh weirdly pro-russian foreign policy/objective talking points that only minimally relate to any ongoing discussion. Dude did the same thing with the Eastern Europe threads, too
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Jun 11, 2019 00:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:My entire position is 'warcrimes and violence against civilians are bad and should be called out and condemned regardless of who is doing them.' Given that I don't think I've ever posted in the Eastern European thread you appear to have confused me with another poster.
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Jun 11, 2019 00:28
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If you say you didn't post there then perhaps not, idk what thread i remember you from then. Every time you have turned up in here it has been similarly out of left field.
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Jun 11, 2019 05:55
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Count Roland posted:On a related topic, does anyone know how Hezbollah is doing these days? They fought hard, and died hard in Syria for a bunch of years. This can yield a battle-hardened force full of veterans, or a force gutted by attrition. Plus a lot of the fighting was guerilla style which is notoriously hard on armed forces. They are reported to have major financial difficulties due to Iran sanctions, over stretching themselves in Syria and US going in hard on their international illegal activities (drugs, smuggling, money laundering etc). Word on the street is that their fighters are having delays in salary payments recent months.
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Jun 11, 2019 07:08
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idk if one sees assad's victory as inevitable at this point it doesn't seem as though it should be a negative that the assad regime can provide certain basic services, even if this means that they can also deny said services because they're pricks if one does not see assad's victory as inevitable i suppose that calculus changes, but it's not clear to me how not having electricity is a good thing, as even if that did weaken the assad regime they still seem to me to have overwhelming military might compared to the other factions that they could just replace such legitimacy with firepower
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Jun 11, 2019 07:11
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You also very rarely hear about YPG's denial of services to Assyrians, with the closure of Assyrian schools and reports currently of burning the farmland of those trading with the Syrian government or those refusing to sell land to Kurds. But we're supposed to assume that power being restored unevenly is inherently an evil plot to force loyalty and not just an issue with rolling out infrastructure.
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Jun 11, 2019 08:35
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