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ulvir posted:at least one of those two were 100% definitely and absolutely confirmed anti-semite and nazi though, let's be real
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 18:44 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 02:06 |
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can you imagine how annoying this thread would be if Hitler would've wrote short fiction instead of painting?
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 19:20 |
Lil Mama Im Sorry posted:can you imagine how annoying this thread would be if Hitler would've wrote short fiction instead of painting? Have you read China Mieville's Last Days in New Paris? Of course not, this is the real lit thread, but your post is pretty on the nose for that book. Let's discuss!
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 20:31 |
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Mishima wasn't a fascist in the normal sense of the word, as far as anyone knows he didn't hold any beliefs about racial superiority or anything, the uniforms just gave him a boner.
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 20:44 |
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Don’t mention the coup
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 20:59 |
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Don’t mention the coup The coup was clearly staged to result in death, he probably didn't think it would actually work, which is why so much preparation went into the suicide. In any case even his explicit motivations for the coup were more complicated than that, he saw the postwar ideology of "passive, victimised Japanese people" as a ploy by the Americans to treat Japan as their colony, and the language of the coup was mostly directed against that. Real Japanese fascism exists but it's invariably strongly sinophobic or talks about killing all zainichi Koreans and things like that. I've read a lot of Mishima, including some of the untranslated "theory" stuff and it never strikes that tone, as far as I'm aware. The worst it gets is when he says things like how the inherent unity of Japanese culture prevents things like racial frictions from occurring and that the US is a false model for examining that sort of thing in the context of Japan. Japanese fascists also generally do not like Mishima and don't talk about him. Contemporary Japanese fascists are also usually pro-American.
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 21:26 |
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Tim Burns Effect posted:are we doing "fascists write good" again? Yes, just like racists and sexists, fascists can and have written classics.
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 21:29 |
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why does myshkin keep talking about that execution it's really winding up my anxiety
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 22:20 |
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Bilirubin posted:Have you read China Mieville's Last Days in New Paris? I've only read October, which was a great wikipedia article.
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 23:01 |
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possibly the single worst prose you'll ever see comes from by-the-book liberals doing introductions for fascists "In fact, when not sounding like the best literature professor you will ever have, Pound could almost pass for a modern-day blogger." "In attacking the clay icons of the literary establishment of his day Pound was even snarky, long before the word existed" "He’s got the piratical bravado of an outlaw hacker" i don't want to find quotes from the celine, but i remember the guy rhapsodising for half a page of footnotes about the unmistakable genius of celine including a fake name in a list of real people. trying to send him a copy of rabelais
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 23:17 |
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Shibawanko posted:The coup was clearly staged to result in death, he probably didn't think it would actually work, which is why so much preparation went into the suicide. In any case even his explicit motivations for the coup were more complicated than that, he saw the postwar ideology of "passive, victimised Japanese people" as a ploy by the Americans to treat Japan as their colony, and the language of the coup was mostly directed against that. Yeah, that suicide was a hot way to die, especially for someone with a Saint Sebastian fetish, I agree completely on the entire sexual undertones being more important than nationalism front. BTW the Paul Schrader film is super cool and Philip Glass composed the soundtrack. I really like Mishima’s writing and I think the film really does him justice, especially Ken Ogata’s titular performance.
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# ? Jun 24, 2019 23:23 |
Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Yeah, that suicide was a hot way to die, especially for someone with a Saint Sebastian fetish, I agree completely on the entire sexual undertones being more important than nationalism front. BTW the Paul Schrader film is super cool and Philip Glass composed the soundtrack. I really like Mishima’s writing and I think the film really does him justice, especially Ken Ogata’s titular performance. Did the film spend quality time on the botched beheading?
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 00:29 |
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ezra pound did nothing wrong
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 01:03 |
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Yeah, that suicide was a hot way to die, especially for someone with a Saint Sebastian fetish, I agree completely on the entire sexual undertones being more important than nationalism front. BTW the Paul Schrader film is super cool and Philip Glass composed the soundtrack. I really like Mishima’s writing and I think the film really does him justice, especially Ken Ogata’s titular performance. the movie loving rules
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 01:06 |
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rest his guts posted:e: holy gently caress. I guess Mishima also why'd this guy edit out all his posts lol
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 01:42 |
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fascism doesn't need a racial component, though racial thought fits it pretty well. what it does need is a sort of modernistic hyper-romantic view of an in-group and its heroic, violent destiny which one must say that mishima had
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 01:46 |
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V. Illych L. posted:fascism doesn't need a racial component, though racial thought fits it pretty well. what it does need is a sort of modernistic hyper-romantic view of an in-group and its heroic, violent destiny I think that there's a meaningful difference between reactionary art and reactionary politics. The fascism that forms governments and murders people is not the same fascism as that of Mishima. It was just a fantasy he had, and I think he was perfectly aware that it had a lot more to do with sexy uniformed men's asses and self loathing than with something as vulgar as actually taking power. This is I think also why Stalin was very lenient to even pro-White artists and let them do their thing. Art needs a reactionary component to really be art.
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 04:50 |
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VileLL posted:possibly the single worst prose you'll ever see comes from by-the-book liberals doing introductions for fascists Political elements aside, this is some sub-Pitchfork writing
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 08:48 |
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Shibawanko posted:I think that there's a meaningful difference between reactionary art and reactionary politics. The fascism that forms governments and murders people is not the same fascism as that of Mishima. It was just a fantasy he had, and I think he was perfectly aware that it had a lot more to do with sexy uniformed men's asses and self loathing than with something as vulgar as actually taking power. i think you're underestimating the centrality of the aesthetic to the fascist political programme - in the words of walter benjamin, it's the aestheticisation of politics which is precisely fascism's main project the beautiful death, for example, is a hugely recurring theme in spanish fascism. simply placing primacy on the beautiful society over something actually worth living in is the core of fascism - this is how they justified murdering all those people, because they contributed to the ugliness of material society run-off-the-mill reactionaries had existed for a really long time, but fascism genuinely seems to have been a 20th-century invention - it seems like a reaction to the lack of clear meaning and direction, and to the social disintegration observed in the interwar period fascism is basically politics as performance art, and it's hard for me to see mishima's doomed coup as anything but that
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 16:09 |
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V. Illych L. posted:i think you're underestimating the centrality of the aesthetic to the fascist political programme - in the words of walter benjamin, it's the aestheticisation of politics which is precisely fascism's main project I don't really disagree with anything you've said in principle, you're right that Mishima reacted against a lack of central meaning (this is pretty much spelled out at the end of Sea of Tranquility), and he intended the Emperor to be some sort of new central reference point for meaning against the ugliness of bourgeois culture. But, I just think that Mishima specifically was either very bad at setting up an actual, strong fascist movement, or deliberately did so in a self sabotaging way. The tatenokai was pretty ridiculous and, apart from the events of the coup, non-violent and unarmed. There were no planned murders, street fights or other things that you might expect from a fascist movement which actually aims to take power, it was basically a performance group of probably mostly closeted gay men. Fascism is the aestheticisation of politics in order to achieve a political goal. I think in Mishima's case he was more using an aestheticised politics for a purely aesthetic goal. Like I said, I don't know of many Japanese fascists who really take Mishima as their inspiration, since he would probably just tell them to go bodybuilding and then kill themselves. He also said a lot of things fascists typically don't like to hear, he was anti-business and thought the emperor should have taken responsibility for the war.
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 17:05 |
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But besides all that he's just an incredible writer and if he's wrong, I don't think I want to be right.
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 17:14 |
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oh yeah he's definitely one of the top novelists of his time, possibly all time, i just think he was a fascist lots of fascist organisations have been pretty poorly focussed to take power, because under stable conditions they're just not going to find much purchase - see the tiny neo-nazi groups in europe during the post-war consensus, for example - being ineffective at taking power, or not bothering tro actually try is not a sign that the group is not fascist
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 17:43 |
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Okay which Mishima book should I read first.
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 17:58 |
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yeah being completely dedicated to a death cult instead of political goals isn't exactly something that stops you being a fascist
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 18:04 |
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derp posted:Okay which Mishima book should I read first. temple of the golden pavilion
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 18:05 |
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derp posted:Okay which Mishima book should I read first. Confessions of a Mask was chronologically the first and it's the one most people read first but it's also a more limited book. The Sea of Fertility was the last one but it's huge and spans 4 parts, but it's probably the best thing he ever wrote. The Sailor who Fell From Grace with the Sea is a good short introduction, Temple of the Golden Pavilion and Thirst for Love are good choices too. Forbidden Colors, After the Banquet and Sound of Waves I all liked less, although they all still have good bits, but the first one has too many wooden characters and the latter two have less strong plotlines. But there are no bad Mishima novels.
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# ? Jun 25, 2019 18:10 |
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The Sailor who Fell From Grace with the Sea is great, I was blown away by the prose and the subtext was simple enough that even someone as dense as I am was able to follow it. Temple of the Golden Pavilion was kind of a letdown in comparison, I didn't find it nearly as engaging. Death in Midsummer is a good choice if you prefer short stories.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 11:58 |
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The Unholy Ghost posted:I'm almost through Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon, a book already cemented as my favorite novel of all time. This kind of complexity, absurdity and fantastic metaphorical imagery is my jam. I read up on the author and how he's so incredibly reclusive. Does anyone know for sure that he's not actually a group of people? It's kind of hard for me to believe that one person could write such an ingenious work and still be publishing such complex, relevant books even to this day (Bleeding Edge).
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 16:56 |
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just lolling about this post again
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 16:56 |
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What's so funny about it? If one person is good at writing surely it follows that multiple people would be better.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 16:58 |
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Luther Blisset was several people and not that good.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 18:05 |
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*reading the love scene between the protagonist and a little girl* only an extremely talented committee could've put this together
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 18:07 |
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"Stanislaw Lem" was a committee of Soviet propagandists writing novels together.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 18:48 |
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The CIA invented Don DeLillo to discredit Juche
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 19:00 |
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derp posted:What's so funny about it? If one person is good at writing surely it follows that multiple people would be better.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 19:30 |
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It's simple math. One skill plus one skill equals two skills. Imagine a very young but talented artist, and then add the experience of a very old man. Together, imagine what they could do! If only people weren't so isolated internally they could cooperate to create wonders.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 19:34 |
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how do we know james, joyce wasn t a committee of people named james, I mean how could one person write finnegans wake after, ulysses
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 20:16 |
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I did once find a married couple named James and Joyce whatever in a database. And a person called D'eath which is just a regular surname but always fun to see.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 20:32 |
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derp posted:It's simple math. One skill plus one skill equals two skills. Imagine a very young but talented artist, and then add the experience of a very old man. Together, imagine what they could do! If only people weren't so isolated internally they could cooperate to create wonders. Wait, isn't this just like how the sum of all literature is the greatest right now so we must be writing the biggest and bestest literature ever?
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 20:43 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 02:06 |
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Yes, exactly.
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# ? Jun 26, 2019 20:52 |