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The real awful mechanic in BotW, I think, is the subtractive defense from armor, which makes you invulnerable if you're geared up for most areas, and gets you oneshot if you aren't. A smoother scale on the damage dealt by enemies relative to armor would be much better. It's a relatively minor mechanic, so it doesn't have a big impact on the game, but it's really quite bad.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:07
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I wasn't talking about the details of the cooking system, which is an entirely different conversation that I couldn't care less about having. I was responding to the guy that said you shouldn't be allowed to freely eat in the pause menu.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:07
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Walrus Pete posted:I wasn't talking about the details of the cooking system, which is an entirely different conversation that I couldn't care less about having. I was responding to the guy that said you shouldn't be allowed to freely eat in the pause menu. So was I, the last sentence was just an aside.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:09
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Zoran posted:So was I, the last sentence was just an aside. Okay, then I've said what I want to say. Nobody's forcing you to trivialize the combat with food and it's a good thing that the system is there for people who aren't as good at video games as you and me.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:10
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Shoving twenty apples into Link's face owned.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:14
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Cicero posted:Eating is too strong in BotW, having the game be challenging shouldn't require that the player dumb themselves down. The whole point of games is to overcome challenges, if the game is trivial for non-stupid players unless they've intentionally gimped themselves then that's a failure of game design. The smart way to play should still be a fun and challenging way to play. If you were good at BotW you wouldn't need to be shoving food down your gullet constantly. From your post stating your refusal to not eat constantly, it can be assumed that you did eat constantly. From this, we can deduce that you were taking damage often and would not have survived if you could not eat constantly. Therefore, we can conclude that you're bad at the game and the mechanic was put in specifically for people like you. Good job getting mad at the game because you're bad at it.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:21
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Walrus Pete posted:Okay, then I've said what I want to say. Nobody's forcing you to trivialize the combat with food and it's a good thing that the system is there for people who aren't as good at video games as you and me. That's fine, you can make that calculation in this case. But I disagreed with what seemed to be you saying that if a mechanic in a game is optional, then it definitely doesn’t hurt the gameplay design, and if you both use it and find it unsatisfying then that’s your fault. I’m saying that it's possible for such things to affect the alternatives: the methods that ought to be more interesting and more challenging become less engaging and less rewarding. This is always a judgment call. It’s objectively way easier to kill the enemies in this game with your weapons than it is to set up crazy kills using the physics system, which dramatically reduces the extrinsic value of mastering the physics, but I think that’s perfectly all right.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:27
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There's nothing wrong with different difficulty levels or assist modes to help people who are less good at games. That's a totally different thing from "if you want the game to be hard just invent your own challenge". If you give a wizard guy a fireball spell that lets you own every single guy in the game by mashing it, telling people "yeah if you want a challenge just only use it occasionally" is perfectly fine individual advice if that's how the game is, but game design should be such that a reasonably intelligent player is still challenged by it, and has to continue improve and think of new ways to beat the game, not hammer on the same thing over and over. Like, that's literally how nearly every previous Zelda worked: you could have things that healed you a ton, and instantly, BUT you were very limited by bottles. If Link to the Past gave the player four hundred bottles instead instead of four, that would be bad. With BotW they kept healing being instant but let you carry around way more stuff because of the emphasis on freedom and because now there's a ton of variety in edible things to carry around. BotW is still a masterclass game, but it'd be improved by a saner food system, that treated food more like how, say, running or bomb throwing is treated.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:29
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"It's weird that this game lets your character attack at infinite speed, kind of trivializes the game that you can just hold down attack and kill everything so easily. Why not give the attack animation a duration and cooldown like any other game, so that you have to use combos and stuff to win?" ITT: "Well if YOU needed to mash attack, obviously that's because you're so terrible at the game, obviously real gamers use timed combos that do much less dps than that to get a real challenge. Pretty funny that you complained about something made for you.  "
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Jun 29, 2019 16:34
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Zoran posted:That's fine, you can make that calculation in this case. But I disagreed with what seemed to be you saying that if a mechanic in a game is optional, then it definitely doesn’t hurt the gameplay design, and if you both use it and find it unsatisfying then that’s your fault. I’m saying that it's possible for such things to affect the alternatives: the methods that ought to be more interesting and more challenging become less engaging and less rewarding. I'm not trying to say that it's always the case, but I think it is much more often than not. Cicero posted:If you give a wizard guy a fireball spell that lets you own every single guy in the game by mashing it, telling people "yeah if you want a challenge just only use it occasionally" is perfectly fine individual advice if that's how the game is, but game design should be such that a reasonably intelligent player is still challenged by it, and has to continue improve and think of new ways to beat the game, not hammer on the same thing over and over. Cicero posted:"It's weird that this game lets your character attack at infinite speed, kind of trivializes the game that you can just hold down attack and kill everything so easily. Why not give the attack animation a duration and cooldown like any other game, so that you have to use combos and stuff to win?" I find it telling that every time I see an example of this kind of thing, it's an extremely hyperbolic scenario that has never actually happened. And with the BotW example in particular, it's perfectly capable of providing a challenge. All you have to do is play it the way you want it to be played. Choosing to limit how you use the food in BotW is not fundamentally different from having a "less powerful healing" option available in a menu.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:38
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One of the things I appreciated about Paper Mario is how you couldn't just carry 99 full restores/mega elixirs around with you because it constrained your inventory a lot more. It meant it felt like you had to be more careful, and even plan out which items you'd take into a fight more. Same thing with Secret of Mana, you had to be more thoughtful with healing items there compared to the Final Fantasies of the day.Walrus Pete posted:I find it telling that every time I see an example of this kind of thing, it's an extremely hyperbolic scenario that has never actually happened. BotW is a much less extreme example because it does take busy work to build up a ton of food, so that constrains how much people abuse the mechanic. Which is why it's still a really excellent game, and it didn't get in the way of my enjoyment too much, I just think it would be a modest improvement, just like doing something else with durability would be modest improvement.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:48
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Cicero posted:Have you never heard of reductio ad absurdum? It's just showing that the principle is ridiculous by using it with an extreme example. Of course nobody would design a game with infinite attack speed and just expect players to restrain themselves, that's the whole point. It's just another flavor of disingenuous slippery-slope arguments that shift the focus away from what's actually being discussed. Anything taken to such absurd extremes is obviously going to be terrible, so what?
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Jun 29, 2019 16:55
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Walrus Pete posted:It's just another flavor of disingenuous slippery-slope arguments that shift the focus away from what's actually being discussed. Anything taken to such absurd extremes is obviously going to be terrible, so what? Because the alternative, "player decides difficulty themselves moment to moment" is generally viewed as awkward and bad, except for maybe sandbox games that are more toys than games. And yeah, BotW is sandboxy for a Zelda game, which is why the power of food doesn't hurt it as much as it would in a more standard Zelda game, but I still think the combat would be improved if it was treated with more built-in limitations, like how running or power moves are. edit: though "these moves are too powerful and trivialize the game" is a real thing that gets complained about for some games sometimes. I've even seen it for BotW (and not just food). Cicero fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 17:04
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Walrus Pete posted:I find it telling that every time I see an example of this kind of thing, it's an extremely hyperbolic scenario that has never actually happened. And with the BotW example in particular, it's perfectly capable of providing a challenge. All you have to do is play it the way you want it to be played. Choosing to limit how you use the food in BotW is not fundamentally different from having a "less powerful healing" option available in a menu. Or just limit yourself by not...upgrading your armors and ignoring a chunk of the gameplay? Upgrading the gear and the subtractive defense it grants is the main reason why the game isn't a challenge. The food is just a cherry ontop of that.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:06
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jisforjosh posted:Or just limit yourself by not...upgrading your armors and ignoring a chunk of the gameplay? Upgrading the gear and the subtractive defense it grants is the main reason why the game isn't a challenge. The food is just a cherry ontop of that.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:07
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I didn't know the "you cheated not only the game, but yourself" person was a goon.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:09
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I feel like "just don't engage with half of the game's mechanics" isn't a great way to design or balance things.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:11
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never thought id see the sekiro argument in the zelda thread
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Jun 29, 2019 17:11
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I still wonder how some people are apparently utterly incapable of not playing in the most optimal way possible, using every mechanic to their full extent and then complain that a game is too easy because they did everything in their power to win. Like, having ways to make things easier is a good thing because for the non broke-brained players they probably won't even realise the most optimal way to break the game and only stumble on things here and there as they play. Like, I doubt new players instantly know where to rush off to get themselves a billion max-hp food items, and even when they stumble across them they probably only notice them whenever they sit down at a cooking pot hours later, go "oh, neat" make some and then continue exploring. And to be honest, sometimes having a "cheat" option can be nice to have around. Not everyone wants to play a game at their full A-game every day, sometimes you just wanna hit some buttons, explore a big world and get lost a bit with minimum frustration. And for those days it can be nice to just have a bunch of quick healing items that let you tank anything you come across. Fake edit: Sorry if I come across a bit bitter. I just got some bad experience with the same type of arguments for other games where people complain that having even just the smallest way of making things easier for the player than what is considered to be the "intended" or "correct" way of playing is just bad game design and not the devs adding a little help for people who need it. And those are always the kind that for some reason just cannot help themselves to use those and apparently need someone to delete it for them, otherwise they just can't stop hitting those "make it easier" buttons.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:12
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if u want to play a really good game that lets u attack a thousand times a second, pause the game and fill yourself with healing food, and has instant-kill spells, check out bloodstained ritual of the night
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Jun 29, 2019 17:13
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It's amazing how much better goons know than the silly game designers always trying to "tune" game balance, lol don't they know the players can just do that themselves??
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Jun 29, 2019 17:13
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scary ghost dog posted:if u want to play a really good game that lets u attack a thousand times a second, pause the game and fill yourself with healing food, and has instant-kill spells, check out bloodstained ritual of the night 
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Jun 29, 2019 17:14
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Cicero posted:It's amazing how much better goons know than the silly game designers always trying to "tune" game balance, lol don't they know the players can just do that themselves?? breath of the wild has one of the most empowering and fair difficulty curves ive ever played, partly because of the ability to eat as much food as u need, which only saves your life if u dont die instantly
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Jun 29, 2019 17:16
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RBA Starblade posted:I feel like "just don't engage with half of the game's mechanics" isn't a great way to design or balance things. Agreed. Also, there is a mental itch that gets scratched by doing your level best to exploit the intended game mechanics to their fullest, and to excel at the challenge put before you. It is definitely less satisfying to self-limit This is probably not true for everyone, but figuring out how to get gud is part of the fun for many people and telling them to intentionally get bad in an arbitrary way is going to leave them feeling less than enthusiastic about the gameplay
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Jun 29, 2019 17:16
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The Bloop posted:Agreed. maybe the combat isnt really a big focus in breath of the wild like it is in sekiro.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:18
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scary ghost dog posted:breath of the wild has one of the most empowering and fair difficulty curves ive ever played, partly because of the ability to eat as much food as u need, which only saves your life if u dont die instantly scary ghost dog posted:maybe the combat isnt really a big focus in breath of the wild like it is in sekiro. Cicero fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 17:19
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Cicero posted:"It's weird that this game lets your character attack at infinite speed, kind of trivializes the game that you can just hold down attack and kill everything so easily. Why not give the attack animation a duration and cooldown like any other game, so that you have to use combos and stuff to win?" You're still getting hit dude. Don't get hit. If you were any good at dodging and parrying you'd never even notice the food mechanic.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:22
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I dunno man maybe you haven’t realized you’ve outgrown Nintendo games. It’s not the game, it’s you. Meanwhile I’m still enjoying the fact that I can jump in and explore for an hour or so just seeing scenery and even though I have probably put over 300 hours easily into it I still haven’t discovered all of the big rock dudes. 🤷🏻♂️
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Jun 29, 2019 17:23
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Cicero posted:I'm fine with food still being really strong, I just don't think "if I have enough food I'm basically an unkillable God" is great game design in and of itself, and I think self-limiting is awkward because obviously you're expected to use food on some level, and deciding what's the right level to me feels like if I was deciding how high Mario could jump and intentionally jumping slightly lower than normal all the time to keep things fair honestly its a tiring argument that doesnt need to be made so i dont know why youre so set on explaining it. the mario analogy makes no sense, it would be more accurate to say its like never using a fire flower, which is actually a fun challenge
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Jun 29, 2019 17:24
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ItBreathes posted:You're still getting hit dude. Don't get hit. If you were any good at dodging and parrying you'd never even notice the food mechanic. big enough in the world
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Jun 29, 2019 17:24
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love the insane games goon style of post where they spend 50 essay length posts obsessively complaining about some minor detail then say “but the games is really good, i love it even”
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Jun 29, 2019 17:26
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Cicero posted:There isn't a Please stop.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:26
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scary ghost dog posted:honestly its a tiring argument that doesnt need to be made so i dont know why youre so set on explaining it. the mario analogy makes no sense, it would be more accurate to say its like never using a fire flower, which is actually a fun challenge
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Jun 29, 2019 17:27
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scary ghost dog posted:love the insane games goon style of post where they spend 50 essay length posts obsessively complaining about some minor detail then say “but the games is really good, i love it even”
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Jun 29, 2019 17:32
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Cicero posted:It's kind of like if you could collect a ton of fire flowers and they let you rocket boost like Azula so you could just bypass all the jump challenges, and you were expected to do this some of the time for a "normal" run, but not too often, and it's basically left up to you what the level of reasonableness is. I get that some players are totally fine with that though. didnt play super mario bros 3 i see
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Jun 29, 2019 17:33
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Cicero posted:Have you not noticed that this doesn't just happen to games, but basically anything? People nitpick what they love precisely because they love it, so the little things they don't love stand out all the more. I could tell you way more minor details that bother me about a game I love like Starcraft than one I'm meh about like Mario Party. most people dont lose their minds trying to explain it like lady macbeth
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Jun 29, 2019 17:35
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Cicero posted:There isn't a Did you even play master mode? Why don't you just ignore the shrines and armor options and fight Ganon on naked with 3 hearts? Its weird how obsessed you are about the food mechanic yet you can max out 4 star knight armor to trivialize most damage and thats not "cheating" as you put it. Is it also cheating to sneak in and loot Hyrule castle for the best weapons? What about wearing damage up armor? Adding 2 full stamina wheels so you can climb from sea level to Mt Lanryu in one go?
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Jun 29, 2019 17:37
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Actually, I'm convinced, but I think you're overlooking the core issue. Even if you do die, the constant autosaves ensure no progress is ever lost, allowing for unlimited attempts at full resources in any given scenario. And without autosaves players would save constantly producing the same result. Yes, it is ultimately the save system that makes BotW impossible to lose, removing all undesired consequences from player actions. To rectify this I propose BotW should have permadeath. And to stop players from memorizing the map it should be randomly generated each time. And tile based.And items should be randomly cursed, and need identified. For real though, even limited to 'just' four faries you were effectively unkillable in past Zeldas too, it's not unique to BotW.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:39
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scary ghost dog posted:didnt play super mario bros 3 i see I mean maybe there's a way to get infinite p-wings, but I don't think it was obvious, especially pre-internet And I like arguing on internet about my dumb nerd hobbies, no mind losing required
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Jun 29, 2019 17:43
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ItBreathes posted:To rectify this I propose BotW should have permadeath. And to stop players from memorizing the map it should be randomly generated each time. And tile based.And items should be randomly cursed, and need identified. quote:For real though, even limited to 'just' four faries you were effectively unkillable in past Zeldas too, it's not unique to BotW.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:47
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