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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:It wouldn’t be fraudulent. I’m not going to lie to my card company. If they tell me to pound sand because of TOS or whatever then I’ll look into alternatives. You have no grounds to chargeback though...you got exactly what was promised out of the transaction. Your money went to the project creator.
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Jun 29, 2019 03:26
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jivjov posted:Kickstarter isn't a store; you very specifically and explicitly did not enter into a transaction of exchanging your money for goods or services; you pledged some money to fund a project, with a hopeful reward at the end of it. Kickstarter's terms do specify that project creators have a legal obligation to fulfil rewards, though; it's just that Kickstarter takes no responsibility for actually making sure that happens, so if the creator already spent all the money and didn't finish the project, it's gonna be kinda hard to collect anything from them, obligation or no. In particular, look at section 4 of the Terms of Use: quote:Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. So there is a contract between a backer and the project creator, in theory, if you can enforce it. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 03:29
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nesbit37 posted:Golden Bell has a bad rep from a bunch of projects. I don't know of any they have participated in that went off without either drama or legit issues. If anyone finds one post it up. What's annoying is that the Unbroken campaign had zero mention of Golden Bell Studios until the final day or so, when they hopped on board. By then, I had already backed and wasn't paying attention. That update is one for the ages though. Their shipper had a mental breakdown, their artist couldn't fulfill the online sketches due to a hand tumor, and they released a youtube music album to show that that is the true main piece of the product we have purchased, the boardgame itself is incidental in the packages that are sent via media mail. Edit: They also threatened libel against anyone speaking against them, said they're being treated like a youtuber that killed themselves and if they did it it would be on us, and if we continue to complain they might just stop fulfillment and quit. (My label is printed, still waiting shipment)
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Jun 29, 2019 03:44
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I don't know if this helps or hurts, but I had one backer issue a chargeback against me around january (my campaign finished in October with anticipated delivery beginning in may). No contact from the person, just a charge back. I told kickstarter as much and that everything was on track, chargeback went through anyway. As a creator, this was really annoying since that money was spent.
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Jun 29, 2019 04:43
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I mean, the loving guy hasn’t even finalized the pledge manager yet and the Kickstarter ended in October. Good to know it’s possible and hopefully that didn’t screw you too hard.
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Jun 29, 2019 06:39
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There’s legal precedent for Kickstarter backers to take a creator to court through a class action lawsuit and winning, I think it was that Chthulu monopoly game. And the ToS of Kickstarter, as shown before, does state that creators are required to fulfil their obligations.
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Jun 29, 2019 12:05
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jivjov posted:Kickstarter isn't a store; you very specifically and explicitly did not enter into a transaction of exchanging your money for goods or services; you pledged some money to fund a project, with a hopeful reward at the end of it. Unless you're in the EU and the creator/company is also in the EU, where consumer protection legislation treats it as a pre-order, and you're fully entitled to a refund for non-delivery/change of direction of the project, etc.
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Jun 29, 2019 12:30
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PST posted:Unless you're in the EU and the creator/company is also in the EU, where consumer protection legislation treats it as a pre-order, and you're fully entitled to a refund for non-delivery/change of direction of the project, etc. Huh...that's handy. I guess I'm just used to the US where pretty much everything is caveat emptor at all times
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Jun 29, 2019 12:54
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jivjov posted:Huh...that's handy. I guess I'm just used to the US where pretty much everything is caveat emptor at all times Yeah over here any physical product you order online, you have 2 weeks after receiving it (4 weeks with Amazon and some companies) to send it back for a full refund. Obviously here in the UK if we brexit, the tories will try and strip all that pesky 'consumer' nonsense away, as they didn't want it in the first place, but at the moment and for years now we've had great consumer facing legislation and rights. You're actually 'safer' buying something online that you can't see, than something in a store.
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Jun 29, 2019 13:03
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PST posted:Yeah over here any physical product you order online, you have 2 weeks after receiving it (4 weeks with Amazon and some companies) to send it back for a full refund. Obviously here in the UK if we brexit, the tories will try and strip all that pesky 'consumer' nonsense away, as they didn't want it in the first place, but at the moment and for years now we've had great consumer facing legislation and rights. You're actually 'safer' buying something online that you can't see, than something in a store. The silver lining is that we won't have time to worry about consumer rights as we struggle for food and sufficient clean water
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Jun 29, 2019 13:08
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Thuryl posted:Kickstarter's terms do specify that project creators have a legal obligation to fulfil rewards, though; it's just that Kickstarter takes no responsibility for actually making sure that happens, so if the creator already spent all the money and didn't finish the project, it's gonna be kinda hard to collect anything from them, obligation or no. Tekopo posted:There’s legal precedent for Kickstarter backers to take a creator to court through a class action lawsuit and winning, I think it was that Chthulu monopoly game. And the ToS of Kickstarter, as shown before, does state that creators are required to fulfil their obligations. So functionally speaking Kickstarter is a store, just one with pretty sparse enforcement mechanisms. Good to know.
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Jun 29, 2019 15:55
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I am an Unbroken backer and I read that update having no clue who da fuq Golden Bell was, but drat, no wonder people hate them. I feel sorry for the designer, they are ruining his brand.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:03
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Ravendas posted:What's annoying is that the Unbroken campaign had zero mention of Golden Bell Studios until the final day or so, when they hopped on board. By then, I had already backed and wasn't paying attention. By that point it was too late for most people. You're not allowed to withdraw a pledge in the last 24 hours if it would defund the project. On the subject of unfulfilled Kickstarters: it's been reported that Lee Garvin, creator of Tales From the Floating Vagabond, died yesterday. It now seems certain that the new edition, which is Skarka-levels of overdue, will never appear.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:14
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Jedit posted:By that point it was too late for most people. You're not allowed to withdraw a pledge in the last 24 hours if it would defund the project. Another funny (horrible) drama bomb was that the Golden Bell guy Marc posted in BGG (under the official Golden Bell account) throwing around how he graduated top in his class at one of the most prestigious business universities in America, so don't question him. It's like, shut the gently caress up dude. EDIT: Love it when KS creators call their backers assholes and hope that people spit in their food. You know, standard company PR. 
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Jun 29, 2019 17:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:So functionally speaking Kickstarter is a store, just one with pretty sparse enforcement mechanisms.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:01
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Further Unbroken / Golden Bell Studios weirdness:  https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2229426/got-unbroken-today-shipped-fedex-box-was-1390lbs-t Some person that was critical of them in the comments got a special package from GBS, with a long rambling letter. It's a bunch of games and stuffed animals and stuff, legit decent things... to a person that was critical of them? I haven't risen to that level yet sadly.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:34
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Wait, what? Is Golden Bell Studios actually a company or like one weird guy? Because this is all sounding like "one weird person way out of their depth" stuff.
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Jun 30, 2019 03:04
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Antivehicular posted:Wait, what? Is Golden Bell Studios actually a company or like one weird guy? Because this is all sounding like "one weird person way out of their depth" stuff. From my experience trying to negotiate a contract with them? ‘One Weird Guy’ sounds about right.
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Jun 30, 2019 07:02
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He's now searching critical backer's names and both threatening them with libel suits and to contact their employers to complain about them being mean.
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Jun 30, 2019 07:31
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Antivehicular posted:Wait, what? Is Golden Bell Studios actually a company or like one weird guy? Because this is all sounding like "one weird person way out of their depth" stuff. It's a company of six people or so living in the same house, I guess? And even though their full time thing for the last while was delivering these games, they say that this part of their business isn't even noteworthy, they make tons of money elsewhere... like selling stuffed animals and doing art for Disney? Or something? I have no idea. They freely share the kickstarter account in their company/commune, and when someone replies back to them, they go 'how dare you, that is a woman at the keyboard over here'. Oh, ok. Stop account sharing, stop being dickheads to your backers, stop threatening libel, stop mailing non-media mail as media mail, stop doxxing... my package has been at 'label printed' for eight days now, when supposedly American shipping was supposed to be wrapped up two weeks ago.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:32
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I used my DTRPG coupon to get the printed copy of Retrocausality, it finally arrived end of last week and it's cool and good
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Jul 1, 2019 12:11
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JazzFlight posted:Another funny (horrible) drama bomb was that the Golden Bell guy Marc posted in BGG (under the official Golden Bell account) throwing around how he graduated top in his class at one of the most prestigious business universities in America, so don't question him. It's like, shut the gently caress up dude. Yeah, they for sure need to keep him away from the keyboard until this clusterfuck is resolved. He really shouldn't be involved with the public face of the company at all at this point, they need a community manager or someone who's at the very least better at handling criticism and responding to complaints. As far as I know he's been the main person responsible for provoking all the comment drama. He is just a walking middle finger pointed at everyone right now and is obviously suffering from crazy stress and doesn't know what to do with it. I'm sure Artem is watching all of this thinking "what the hell have I gotten myself into?" Chubbs fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 14:29
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...did I just read that they're building a moon rocket? Like, how loving unhinged can you be?
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Jul 1, 2019 14:39
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Zurui posted:...did I just read that they're building a moon rocket? Like, how loving unhinged can you be? ...is what I would have posted before seeing the giant care package? that one guy on BGG got. Now I'd say I hope Marc just logs off for a week and hopefully winds the company up after managing to deliver things, and the various rights go back to the designers. Just stop posting. Please.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:41
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90s Cringe Rock posted:I'm pretty sure that's a joke to own the trolls, but GB does not seem like a healthy company with healthy employees. They actually haven't posted in 24 hours. It might be because they got blocked or muted or banned or something due to people reporting the doxxing to kickstarter. I'd say "Check for a thread on bgg from them!" but they're banned on BGG. Which is very normal for a publisher.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:52
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I don't think Golden Bell is going away anytime soon, from kickstarter or otherwise. According to their facebook page, they have recently acquired gaming (and plush) licenses for Spongebob Squarepants and Superbad. They also still spam kickstarter campaigns trying to get them to sign them as their fulfillment partner. There are still regular posts in the kickstarter publishing help groups with new creators saying they received an email from some company called Golden Bell with shipping rates that seem too good to be true, and seeing if anyone has dealt with them before (people have and it has always been terrible). edit: man, I forgot how bad they were. I went and looked up some old discussions about them in one of the publisher groups and here is a short thread recap: Publisher posts this email they received from Golden Bell asking if they were legit (post included their logo) "First off I’d like to say WOW! We’ve been scouring the internet for some great games to partner up with, and this caught our eye immediately. We loved your campaign and honestly just every aspect of it. We would love to meet with you about discussing a publishing and distribution deal for your product. We think that the property has major potential and we all would have a mutually beneficial partnership if we can proceed. To date we are currently distributing Award-Winning and Best-Selling games, comic books, novels, and children’s books! Please let me know when you’re available to chat and we can set up either a Skype Call, Phone Call, or just communicate VIA E-Mail at your convenience. We all look forward to hearing back from you! Thanks in advance, Marc Goldner Founder & C.E.O. https://www.goldenbellstudios.com" One publisher actually contacted Golden Bell to see what their deal was, and this is what they found out, along with a blurb from the contract they sent: " I had some conversations last year with this guy. Yes his contract is not only to take your game for 5% of PROFIT but they keep the rights indefinitely. Also they then take over your company too. ADDENDUM AND ACQUISITION A. COMPANY will handle taxes for the WORKS. COMPANY has sole exclusive final edits and approval on WORKS. B. COMPANY will cover expenses for conventions and tradeshows, but will be reimbursed upon the show’s completion. C. COMPANY hereby acquires Vile Genius Games, LLC. and have full control as an executor, to handle taxes, to define ownership, to deal directly with the USPTO and USCO as listed in 1A of this Agreement. Vile Genius Games, LLC. will formally be considered a sub corporation of COMPANY that is exclusively handled and managed by COMPANY. D. COMPANY has the ability to create a new to be determined corporation, LLC. or any other such entity for any given reason. This new corporation has the ability to house the WORKS, the rights of the WORKS and equity of WORKS. 3. SAMPLES AND COMPLETION OF WORKS AND FUTURE WORKS A. The beginning and samples of the WORKS have been provided by CREATORS to COMPANY as seen attached below. B. It is contemplated that the WORKS will be completed by the CREATORS. Each of the WORKS will have a set timeline attached to it such as ie. “Tales from the Tavern” to be completed by February 17, 2017; Other works will be discussed as far as deadlines for each of the above WORKS cited. C. CREATORS shall submit to COMPANY all sequels to the WORKS or other works using characters that appear in the WORKS and any other unrelated characters. COMPANY will take due diligence to copyright all said WORKS with the same percentages and profit splits as discussed above for future works relating to the WORKS above. If COMPANY acquires the NEW WORK, the provisions of this Agreement shall apply to the NEW WORKS. D. The CREATORS agrees to give the COMPANY a 217-Day option on the CREATORS’ future works including but not limited to games, movies, books, technology, etc on the same terms as this agreement , which option period shall begin on the day the completed manuscript for such work is received by the publisher or 1-Year after the publication of the WORKS covered by the entirety of this agreement." Someone else decides to protect other game creators and starts spreading this post around: "I wanted to post onto the smaller groups I know about a company sending messages about signing games. The messages are coming through Kickstarter and a lot of people are reporting getting this messsage: TLDR: This company is giving out horrible contracts and you should just ignore it as spam. "First off I’d like to say WOW! We’ve been scouring the internet for some great games to partner up with, and this caught our eye immediately. We loved your campaign and honestly just every aspect of it. We would love to meet with you about discussing a publishing and distribution deal for your product. We think that the property has major potential and we all would have a mutually beneficial partnership if we can proceed. To date we are currently distributing Award-Winning and Best-Selling games, comic books, novels, and children’s books! Please let me know when you’re available to chat and we can set up either a Skype Call, Phone Call, or just communicate VIA E-Mail at your convenience. We all look forward to hearing back from you! Thanks in advance, Marc Goldner Founder & C.E.O. https://www.goldenbellstudios.com" While most of you might find this appealing to get published and with the numbers they are talking about it might seem really appealing. However when you look deeper into their contract things become very problematic for designers. I was approached in October by this company to purchasing the publishing rights to Tales from the Taverns. Several things had me a bit concerned from the start. 1. He would never talk about a percentage or money at all. 2. He talked about going into mass market but was unclear of his distribution lines. 3. They have not done many board game conventions. 4. They have no presence in any of the various table top games on social media. After talking with him let me make clear what we discussed and what I agreed to in order for them to publish Tales from the Taverns: 1. 250-300 copies of the game for free. 2. Up to 2500 of the game can be purchased at cost for the game plus any shipping. 3. I was looking for 15k advance and 5% royalties on channel. 4. A kill clause if the game is not published for 3 years. The only thing negotiable was the advance. What I got back was nothing in which we discussed. 1. 5% of NET profit of the game. 15% net profit on all other merchandise, movie, book, or tv show deal. 2. 100 copies of the game free. 3. copies could be bought at 50% of MSRP 4.They went from trying to get just Tales from the Taverns to getting every single game we publish. 5.As I read further down the line I also gave up any future game I was designing. 6.Kept reading I would have to give them a 217 day option to pass on any other game I made. 7. No advanced funds 8.The final straw was that my company got taken over by Golden Bell studios. After explaining rather heatedly that the only thing on the table was Tales from the Taverns and that we never discussed selling the company or our other product lines and I was sure as hell not going to give him 217 days to right to refuse on my future games. I then countered with the same as above but stated I was willing to lower my price on the advance. At that point he was questioning why I needed the advance. That of course is none of his business why I needed the funds. As Marc said that Goldenbell does not do advances I told him I wanted a percentage of the KS money then or pay me my advance off of the Kickstarter funds. Either way if I did not receive an advance of at least $10k the deal was not going to go through. The follow up contract still contained the same percentages, still attempted to purchase the company, the provisions of first right to refusal was still in place, and the kickstarter funds were capped at $2,500. I told him that his royalties were far below industry standards and there was no way I was going to move forward. BUT if he wanted to fully purchase Tales from the Taverns with no royalties due it would be $50,000 to do so. (I made this number high on purpose.) Mind you all of this was being negotiated just before I was to relaunch Tales. This negotiating actually made us launch late as there was no way I am going to sign such a horrible contract. There are a few reasons why this deal is horrible. (I also want to thank you for hanging in here for this long. Royalties based on NET profits are a really really realllllly bad idea. It is very easy to show that there were no profits from the game because the company can say it went into other things like advertising and what not. A famous case like this is David Prose in Return of the Jedi. http://www.slashfilm.com/lucasfilm-tells-darth-vader.../ Since this is an entertainment company with an entertainment contract this is a huge red flag and no one should do it. While it is true that advances are extremely rare in this industry now days, you can get them if you are a well known designer, normally you get between 4-8% of the channel the game is sold in average being about 5%. James Mathe has a good breakdown of this on his site: http://www.jamesmathe.com/alien-first-contract/ Obviously selling your company like this is also ridiculous. The option to give first right of refusal should not be a part of a contract. Rather not one you should sign. The reason is that 217 day window can really tie up a game and gives someone else the time to design something similar. All around this deal is really really really bad. While it might seem appealing to some, the reality is you are almost paying them to publish your game for you. In closing sometimes it is best to simply wait for the right publisher to come around then to sell to a company like this." Golden Bell finds the facebook post and sends the OP this (and the OPs reply): ""Dear James, This post contains our unauthorized use of our Intellectual Property. Not only does it include our logo but it also contains clauses to our contract which are confidential and completely illegal to be posted online. I request that you take the post down as almost every comment from Mark Seirens is a blatant lie. Thank you." I told him that's not going to happen." nesbit37 fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 15:58
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Hah, it’s all coming back to me now. The ridiculous royalties, the acquiring of every single game I had already made, the incredibly excessive first refusal period - even acquiring rights to the likeness of the ‘characters’ for an RPG with no signature characters??? - are all things they were trying to pull over 3 years ago. Thankfully I had a friendly Warthur to look over the contract and tell me it was absolute dreck.
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Jul 2, 2019 12:21
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Flavivirus posted:Hah, it’s all coming back to me now. The ridiculous royalties, the acquiring of every single game I had already made, the incredibly excessive first refusal period - even acquiring rights to the likeness of the ‘characters’ for an RPG with no signature characters??? - are all things they were trying to pull over 3 years ago. Thankfully I had a friendly Warthur to look over the contract and tell me it was absolute dreck. What's really scary about this is that even people who should know better will just assume things are as expected on contracts or that they have no option to negotiate or even just not take the deal.
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Jul 2, 2019 15:32
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The Aberrant Kickstarter is live. I'd say I'm more interested to see what they do with the powers here than in Scion.
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Jul 2, 2019 23:51
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That Old Tree posted:The Aberrant Kickstarter is live. I'm on the fence (mostly because the Aysle KS for TORG Eternity just went live and I saw it first) but it is nice that some of them seem to be wearing superhero costumes. Also I doubt we'll get a 'You're Not The Avengers' sidebar which still irritates me to think about even as I know somebody always brings it up when Aberrant is mentioned. (In this case me.)
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Jul 3, 2019 03:55
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I don't know if the lawsuit against Golden Bell from Chiykowski and Wiseman about their Kickstarter 'Be a Turtle' and a separate boardgame 'turtles riding airships' has come up here before, but i'd say if they have emails confirming just some of the allegations there, then GB and Goldner are going to get royally hosed at trial: https://ia803008.us.archive.org/21/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.511754/gov.uscourts.nysd.511754.1.0.pdf quote:Defendant Goldner threatened Plaintiff with legal action unless Plaintiff fired his then attorney, Isaac Fine. Furthermore, Defendant Goldner threatened Plaintiff to hold the copies of the books hostage and refused to pay Plaintiff any royalties and deliver Plaintiff’s complementary copies of the book until Plaintiff fired his attorney. quote:On the same day, November 16, 2018,in yet another attempt to further coerce Plaintiff and misappropriate his future works, Defendants filed an application before the United States Patent and Trademark Office attempting to fraudulently obtain registration for Plaintiff’s mark “Rock Paper Cynic.” “Rock Paper Cynic”is not only Plaintiff’s well recognized pen name and digital pseudonym since at least October 31, 2008, but also his intellectual property which was not part of the Collaborative Agreement.Defendants fraudulently submitted as specimens of use snapshots of plaintiff’s website showing goods displayed on plaintiff’s online store. The use of plaintiff’s website images not only was done to defraud the USPTO and without plaintiff’s permission, but also infringed on plaintiff’s copyrights PST fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 12:45
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Dawgstar posted:I'm on the fence (mostly because the Aysle KS for TORG Eternity just went live and I saw it first) but it is nice that some of them seem to be wearing superhero costumes. Also I doubt we'll get a 'You're Not The Avengers' sidebar which still irritates me to think about even as I know somebody always brings it up when Aberrant is mentioned. (In this case me.) To be fair a lot of the people in costumes are the same folks who wore them in 1st ed! It's just that Aberrant wanted to pretend really hard that this wasn't because they were superheroes, those outfits were special materials so they wouldn't be naked when using their powers, it was just practical.
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Jul 3, 2019 13:23
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My Unbroken copy is still sitting at: Pre-Shipment Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item Jun 22, 2019 at 1:15 am Once that thing moves, I can finally comment in the section a bit more harshly. It's ridiculous that they're basically holding the games/campaign hostage while gaslighting backers and threatening libel and such. Maybe get a post-delivery refund like some others have gotten, to prevent them from posting in the comments. Now I know to check on the final day of a kickstarter to see if GBS swooped in to take over. And I won't back anything by Artem because he's signed all future releases away to them.
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Jul 3, 2019 14:55
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The Kickstarter for Smartphone Inc 2nd edition is going live in a couple of days. Pledge will be $60 for the game.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:55
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This game I backed, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, is being delayed to Jan 2020. Which is nuts considering the backer period was Oct 2017 and the originally projected date was Dec 2018. I wonder if this will end up being my first Kickstarter bust.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:32
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Henker posted:This game I backed, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, is being delayed to Jan 2020. Which is nuts considering the backer period was Oct 2017 and the originally projected date was Dec 2018. I wonder if this will end up being my first Kickstarter bust. Hold out hope if the production updates still look good. I thought for sure Middara was going to be a bust, but they delivered in spades even after some heinous delays.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:47
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unseenlibrarian posted:To be fair a lot of the people in costumes are the same folks who wore them in 1st ed! It's just that Aberrant wanted to pretend really hard that this wasn't because they were superheroes, those outfits were special materials so they wouldn't be naked when using their powers, it was just practical. I mean, it's true, Team Tomorrow was basically 'the Avengers but massive dicks' but it's nice they throttled back.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:29
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Henker posted:This game I backed, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, is being delayed to Jan 2020. Which is nuts considering the backer period was Oct 2017 and the originally projected date was Dec 2018. I wonder if this will end up being my first Kickstarter bust.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:15
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Henker posted:This game I backed, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, is being delayed to Jan 2020. Which is nuts considering the backer period was Oct 2017 and the originally projected date was Dec 2018. I wonder if this will end up being my first Kickstarter bust. In that it's created by a division of Greater Than Games, I'd be shocked if it didn't deliver at all.
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Jul 4, 2019 05:12
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Isle of Cats looks like a fun and interesting game https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tcokgame/the-isle-of-cats    It also looks very cute. I want to play the game where you competitively rescue cats from an island before an evil man arrives to loot the island, even though you're also looting the island and the cats could probably stay away from dumb mean plunder guy on their own
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