Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

thotsky posted:

And then he lied about it, which I guess is meant to be creepy as they established in the episode that Data is incapable of hurting a human, but that's pretty dumb conceit I am pretty sure they dropped in later episodes. I don't think Data would be capable of being a star fleet officer if he couldn't harm other sentient beings; space battles and all.

You're misremembering. The episode sets up that he's capable of hurting people in direct self-defense or defense of others. When he tried to kill the collector though, the guy wasn't actually providing a direct threat. Data tried to kill the collector out of a broader sense of justice. That's the big Is Data becoming a human moment of the episode.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 13:13

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# ? May 23, 2024 05:38

thotsky: Jun 7, 2005; hot to trot

You're probably right, but I still don't think that makes any sense. Federation officers are expected to use force to achieve political goals as well.

Don't they play up Datas pokerface and ability to be coldly rational as an intimidating factor in some later episode? Or am I conflating his demeanor when dressing down Worf as his second in command? I remember him as a bit of a bad rear end when being in command.

thotsky fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 7, 2019

# ? Jul 7, 2019 14:47

Dog_Meat: May 19, 2013

Timeless Appeal posted:

You're misremembering. The episode sets up that he's capable of hurting people in direct self-defense or defense of others. When he tried to kill the collector though, the guy wasn't actually providing a direct threat. Data tried to kill the collector out of a broader sense of justice. That's the big Is Data becoming a human moment of the episode.

I haven't seen the episode for years so forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he make the decision because the collector guy is going to keep this going on and on and just killed that woman? Doesn't he say "I cannot allow this to continue" before pulling the trigger?

# ? Jul 7, 2019 15:04

Mister Kingdom: Dec 14, 2005; And the tears that fall
On the city wall
Will fade away
With the rays of morning light

Dog_Meat posted:

I haven't seen the episode for years so forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he make the decision because the collector guy is going to keep this going on and on and just killed that woman? Doesn't he say "I cannot allow this to continue" before pulling the trigger?

Yep, even as Fajo taunts him about not being able to feel rage, he doubles down and is about to fire as the transporter beam takes him away.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 15:49

Orv: May 4, 2011

thotsky posted:

You're probably right, but I still don't think that makes any sense. Federation officers are expected to use force to achieve political goals as well.

Don't they play up Datas pokerface and ability to be coldly rational as an intimidating factor in some later episode? Or am I conflating his demeanor when dressing down Worf as his second in command? I remember him as a bit of a bad rear end when being in command.

I think there's a place you could come from where every time they show a different facet of Data - hard-nosed commander, just and needful, by the rules officer - basically any time he's not busy being a naive dope for jokes, it's really just him emulating learned behaviors like a particularly clever dog. Unfortunately while that's a really cool way to think about the episodes in which he does this and typically following episodes make that viewpoint anywhere from shaky to entirely incompatible.

Data thinks, therefor he is a plot device, basically.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 16:55

Sad King Billy: Jan 27, 2006; Thats three of ours innit...to one of yours. You know mate I really think we ought to even up the average!

Hipster_Doofus posted:

You're conflating "The Enemy" with "Face of the Enemy."

Funny thing I just discovered, though. The dying Romulan in sickbay who refused a transfusion from Worf because he "would rather die than pollute [his] blood with Klingon filth" was named Patahk. Did this episode predate the first use of petaQ or...? Was one inspired by the other?

No I'm not. I said my favourite Romulan, not my favourite Romulan from "The Enemy".

# ? Jul 7, 2019 16:58

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Just thought I'd float by and share this awesome loving take on the meaning of the drumhead.

Majesticeducation posted:

Are you being sarcastic? Picard's injunction about the freedom of speech seems pretty on point given "progressives" love of thought/speech suppression these days.

grumblingduke posted:

No. Because context matters.

The episode focuses on an individual facing prejudice and a trial on the sole basis of his ethnicity. It's about racism, and summary (in)justice.

Picard posted:
The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.

The "freedom" that Captain Picard is worried about there is not the freedom to insult people, or say whatever you like. It is the freedom not to be judged or treated differently because of someone else's prejudice. It's the freedom to ensure that everyone, no matter their species or ancestry, gets the full rights they deserve.

The scene in the original post is Worf saying "he's part Romulan, he doesn't deserve the same protections we do. We should presume he's guilty because we all know Romulans are evil. He refused to answer the questions, invoking his privilege against self-incrimination, therefore he's obviously hiding something and we should punish him for it."

Picard's response is to say no, that's wrong. Everyone should enjoy the same fundamental rights, no matter their ancestry, no matter what the context. Rights matter.

He's absolutely not saying that anyone should be free to say anything they like, no matter how insulting or hurtful.

Picard posted:
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied � chains us all irrevocably.

That's the quote that racists seem to love; the "first speech censured" and "first thought forbidden" part. But that's not relevant to the bulk of the episode, that's just a handy quote he used to undermine the inquisitor. His point there is that by denying Tarses his rights (simply because of his Romulan ancestry), that is the first link in the chain of denying everyone their rights.

As a diplomat and anthropologist, of course Captain Picard is going to understand that some speech can be harmful, and that there must be limits on freedom of speech (he even invokes some in other episodes, around secrecy). However he's also in a very different position to us; he's in a society where most people seem to have evolved to the point where there aren't as many prejudicial or offensive words (although racism still exists, as noted in this episode, and Worf, Data etc. all face prejudice for who they are).

MajesticEducation posted:
given "progressives" love of thought/speech suppression these days.

Is it thought suppression to explain to people why they are wrong, and discourage them? I'm pretty certain Captain Picard would be all for standing up to bigotry, and calling out people who hold or express beliefs that are flawed.

Let's go back to the context.

Just after that line about chains, Admiral Satie interrupts him:

Satie posted:
How dare you! You who consort with Romulans, invoke my father's name to support your traitorous arguments? It is an offense to everything I hold dear! And to hear those words used to subvert the United Federation of Planets! My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You dirty his name when you speak it! He loved the Federation! But you, captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are! I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard!

Now sure, to some this sounds like "evil SJW rantings." But that misses the first line. "You who consort with Romulans." There's nothing remotely SJWish about that paragraph (which makes sense, given that Captain Picard is 100% a SJW).

Admiral Satie is racist.

She is "offended" because Captain Picard has called her out on it. She has this idealised version of her father, that she thinks should apply to her because she has the same name (note that it isn't "he stands for integrity and principle" but "his name stands for integrity and principle"). She believes that she must be right because her father was right. "He loved the Federation" ... with the implication "and therefore so must I because I'm his daughter and have the same name." She is right and therefore Captain Picard is wrong because of who she is, not because of her arguments.

Because her arguments are fundamentally flawed, right from the first line.

Captain Picard is standing up for someone with Romulan ancestry. In her mind, that is "traitorous." Because she is racist. And the more she gets called out for it, the more angry she gets, the more defensive, and the more desperate to throw anything she can back at him. She calls him "traitorous", "dirty" and "corrupt", all for suggesting that maybe someone with foreign ancestry should be treated humanely. This is a classic case of projection.

Look at the language she uses; it's almost straight out of the alt-right handbook; calling people who disagree with you a traitor or corrupt. Insulting, claiming "offence" at being called out for their bigotry. Projecting their own attempts to undermine basic constitutional principles onto those trying to protect them.

So yeah, sure. If you take that one line out of context, and apply it (roughly) to a caricature of some people today (although not anyone close to any sort of political power) you can get a cheap shot off at people you disagree with.

But that's being an Admiral Satie, not a Captain Picard. Admiral Satie heard those words, but didn't understand them. She couldn't fit them into the right context, because she was blinded by her own prejudices and failings.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 17:48

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

This is your semi-annual reminder to install the SJW to skeleton addon in chrome.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 18:34

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Dog_Meat posted:

I haven't seen the episode for years so forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he make the decision because the collector guy is going to keep this going on and on and just killed that woman? Doesn't he say "I cannot allow this to continue" before pulling the trigger?

Yeah, but I kind of took it as Data growing because of a sort of challenge to his programming. Data's stated morality is that he can directly defend the life of others and is not really capable of needlessly hurting others. But here he is being faced with someone who poses no immediate danger but will surely hurt others if continued to live. I'd argue that it's an emerging sense of justice.

I think it's similar to how Data makes the decision to risk Picard's life to save the exocomps out of a moral obligation for them to have an advocate.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 20:26

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Arglebargle III posted:

This is your semi-annual reminder to install the SJW to skeleton addon in chrome.

Tell me more

# ? Jul 7, 2019 20:26

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

You've got to love Netflix's episode descriptions for Deep Space Nine. Whoever wrote them obviously watched nothing but the cold open before the credits, and summarized only THAT. It's gotten to be something of a fun game for the ones I don't recognize by title, trying to figure out what the hell episode this is just from the description.

Actual examples, just from the first two seasons:

"Traveling in a Runabout, Kira and Bashir pick up a distress signal from a disabled Kolibad ship."
"Sisko, Kira and Dax investigate readings of unusually high thoron emissions coming from the plasma field in their area of space."
"When a ramshackle alien vessel is detected making its way through the wormhole, the ship's four passengers are transported to Deep Space Nine."

Oh yeah, THAT episode. That's a great one.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 20:44

BioEnchanted: Aug 9, 2011; He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

I liked the episode with Beverley Crusher getting trapped in the Warp Bubble. That one was cool. Just her breakdown as she grows more and more isolated.

"Computer, have I always been the only crew member aboard the Enterprise?"
"Yes, Dr"
"Computer, what is the Enterprise's mission?"
"To explore the furthest reaches of the galaxy"
"Do I have the expertise to perform this mission alone?"
"No Dr."
"Then why am I the only crew member?..."

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:37

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

BioEnchanted posted:

I liked the episode with Beverley Crusher getting trapped in the Warp Bubble. That one was cool. Just her breakdown as she grows more and more isolated.

"Computer, have I always been the only crew member aboard the Enterprise?"
"Yes, Dr"
"Computer, what is the Enterprise's mission?"
"To explore the furthest reaches of the galaxy"
"Do I have the expertise to perform this mission alone?"
"No Dr."
"Then why am I the only crew member?..."

*computer stalls for an answer*

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:41

Kibbles n Shits: Apr 8, 2006; burgerpug.png; Fun Shoe

Well.. if the universe is roughly the size of the enterprise and she's the only person living in it, I'd say that makes her more than qualified...

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:43

Pakled: Aug 6, 2011; WE ARE SMART

Powered Descent posted:

You've got to love Netflix's episode descriptions for Deep Space Nine. Whoever wrote them obviously watched nothing but the cold open before the credits, and summarized only THAT. It's gotten to be something of a fun game for the ones I don't recognize by title, trying to figure out what the hell episode this is just from the description.

Actual examples, just from the first two seasons:

"Traveling in a Runabout, Kira and Bashir pick up a distress signal from a disabled Kolibad ship."

"Sisko, Kira and Dax investigate readings of unusually high thoron emissions coming from the plasma field in their area of space."

"When a ramshackle alien vessel is detected making its way through the wormhole, the ship's four passengers are transported to Deep Space Nine."

Oh yeah, THAT episode. That's a great one.

Another one from Season 2:

"On the fourth anniversary of his wife's death, Sisko takes a melancholy late-night stroll along the Promenade."

Love me an episode that's entirely Sisko brooding about his dead wife

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:49

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Pakled posted:

Another one from Season 2:

"On the fourth anniversary of his wife's death, Sisko takes a melancholy late-night stroll along the Promenade."

Love me an episode that's entirely Sisko brooding about his dead wife

Brooks could probably have sold me on a whole episode of that tbh

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:57

Blade_of_tyshalle: Jul 12, 2009; If you think that, along the way, you're not going to fail... you're blind.

There's no one I've ever met, no matter how successful they are, who hasn't said they had their failures along the way.

Pakled posted:

Love me an episode that's entirely Sisko brooding about his dead wife

INT. PROMENADE - NIGHT SISKO perches on a gargoyle overlooking Quark's. His beard flaps moodily in the wind. Below, citizens mill about, oblivious to the cancerous rot of injustice staining their lives. SISKO Jennifer... this galaxy is insensate darkness without your light, and I am but a pilgrim in that hideous night.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 21:59

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Powered Descent posted:

You've got to love Netflix's episode descriptions for Deep Space Nine. Whoever wrote them obviously watched nothing but the cold open before the credits, and summarized only THAT. It's gotten to be something of a fun game for the ones I don't recognize by title, trying to figure out what the hell episode this is just from the description.

Actual examples, just from the first two seasons:

"Traveling in a Runabout, Kira and Bashir pick up a distress signal from a disabled Kolibad ship."

"Sisko, Kira and Dax investigate readings of unusually high thoron emissions coming from the plasma field in their area of space."

"When a ramshackle alien vessel is detected making its way through the wormhole, the ship's four passengers are transported to Deep Space Nine."

Oh yeah, THAT episode. That's a great one.

actually theyre good

# ? Jul 7, 2019 22:03

Zesty: Jan 17, 2012; The Great Twist

BioEnchanted posted:

I liked the episode with Beverley Crusher getting trapped in the Warp Bubble. That one was cool. Just her breakdown as she grows more and more isolated.

"Computer, have I always been the only crew member aboard the Enterprise?"
"Yes, Dr"
"Computer, what is the Enterprise's mission?"
"To explore the furthest reaches of the galaxy"
"Do I have the expertise to perform this mission alone?"
"No Dr."
"Then why am I the only crew member?..."

You watching TNG fresh? That's exciting. Do continue to share your experience.

Powered Descent posted:

You've got to love Netflix's episode descriptions for Deep Space Nine. Whoever wrote them obviously watched nothing but the cold open before the credits, and summarized only THAT. It's gotten to be something of a fun game for the ones I don't recognize by title, trying to figure out what the hell episode this is just from the description.

Actual examples, just from the first two seasons:

"Traveling in a Runabout, Kira and Bashir pick up a distress signal from a disabled Kolibad ship."

"Sisko, Kira and Dax investigate readings of unusually high thoron emissions coming from the plasma field in their area of space."

"When a ramshackle alien vessel is detected making its way through the wormhole, the ship's four passengers are transported to Deep Space Nine."

Oh yeah, THAT episode. That's a great one.

I know they're silly, but I only use episode descriptions if I'm unsure if I had watched an episode recently and those are a half-decent spoiler-free way of doing so.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 22:48

Tears In A Vial: Jan 13, 2008

on the greatest gen they used to read both the netflix and amazon ones for the episode they were about to watch, and although the netflix ones were lovely, the amazon ones would just spoil episode twists in them. I felt bad for the hosts when they had the DS9 episode Defiant spoiled for them before they watched it. You definitely wanna go into that one blind.

# ? Jul 7, 2019 23:26

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Trek trivia people: which TOS movie had a smooth production?

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:04

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Trek trivia people: which TOS movie had a smooth production?

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:15

Hipster_Doofus: Dec 20, 2003; Lovin' every minute of it.

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Trek trivia people: which TOS movie had a smooth production?

*whirrrbrrrrbleepbleep*

"Fault detected. Please restate the question."

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:18

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Trek trivia people: which TOS movie had a smooth production?

Probably 5, it's a solid 4 on the Bristol stool chart.

Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jul 8, 2019

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:22

Hipster_Doofus: Dec 20, 2003; Lovin' every minute of it.

lol

The closest thing to a correct answer.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:26

Farmer Crack-Ass: Jan 2, 2001; this is me posting irl

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Trek trivia people: which TOS movie had a smooth production?

Initial script difficulties aside, I suspect Wrath of Khan probably had the smoothest production.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:34

Peyote Panda: Mar 10, 2019

Timeless Appeal posted:

You're misremembering. The episode sets up that he's capable of hurting people in direct self-defense or defense of others. When he tried to kill the collector though, the guy wasn't actually providing a direct threat. Data tried to kill the collector out of a broader sense of justice. That's the big Is Data becoming a human moment of the episode.

Data also makes a point of going to Fajo's cell to tell hm in person that the collection he's been building for a lifetime is being given back to the original owners: "You have lost everything you value." Data continues to deny he has any feelings, but there's no reason for him to go and give Fajo the good news face-to-face other than getting to see his reaction.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:38

Kibbles n Shits: Apr 8, 2006; burgerpug.png; Fun Shoe

I have often observed humans engaging in what is known as "rubbing it in".

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:42

Thom12255: Feb 23, 2013; WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY

Tears In A Vial posted:

on the greatest gen they used to read both the netflix and amazon ones for the episode they were about to watch, and although the netflix ones were lovely, the amazon ones would just spoil episode twists in them. I felt bad for the hosts when they had the DS9 episode Defiant spoiled for them before they watched it. You definitely wanna go into that one blind.

Wait, those guys have never watched DS9 before? I thought it was a re-review of all of it lol.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:55

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

One of them watched it all when broadcast and remembers basically nothing, the other dropped out very early on in the broadcast run and also knows nothing. Seems like they're aware of broad strokes like the Dominion being a thing but not details.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:56

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Initial script difficulties aside, I suspect Wrath of Khan probably had the smoothest production.

Wrath of Khan had an incredibly messy pre-production (hence Meyer writing the script in twelve days), and it did go slightly over-budget despite Bob Sallin babysitting Meyer on-set every step of the way, but that and The Search for Spock (which was something like 13 months from script to screen) were both very smooth. The Voyage Home could be a contender but Harve Bennett and ILM were clashing a lot during post.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:57

Pakled: Aug 6, 2011; WE ARE SMART

Tears In A Vial posted:

on the greatest gen they used to read both the netflix and amazon ones for the episode they were about to watch, and although the netflix ones were lovely, the amazon ones would just spoil episode twists in them. I felt bad for the hosts when they had the DS9 episode Defiant spoiled for them before they watched it. You definitely wanna go into that one blind.

During like season 1 or 2 of their DS9 watch, they read a reader message that mentioned Jadzia getting killed and replaced with Ezri which seemed like kind of a dick move on part of the reader.

Thom12255 posted:

Wait, those guys have never watched DS9 before? I thought it was a re-review of all of it lol.

I think Adam had never seen it/only seen a scattered handful of early episodes and Ben had seen most/all of them, but he'd never rewatched them over and over like TNG so his memory was a bit fuzzy.

Pakled fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 8, 2019

# ? Jul 8, 2019 01:58

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

TMP- went ridiculously over budget, almost didn't make its premiere
WOK- all of the behind the scenes stuff with Spock's death being leaked and whether or not that death would be permanent
TSS- I'm not as familiar with this one's production history
TVH- Wasn't Shatner originally wanting to direct this one
FF- The script was in development hell for awhile, and the visual effects ended up being handed over to a studio that was not ready for this kind of project since ILM was not available
TUC- All the behind-the-scenes stuff between Nimoy, Meyer, etc.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 02:16

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

FlamingLiberal posted:

TMP- went ridiculously over budget, almost didn't make its premiere

Correct, Wise literally flew to the premiere with the final reel in his hands.

quote:

WOK- all of the behind the scenes stuff with Spock's death being leaked and whether or not that death would be permanent

Yes and no; the initial test screenings went poorly (I think Bennett or Meyer described them as "funeral"-like)

quote:

TSS- I'm not as familiar with this one's production history

The only big issue here was the dumbass design work done by ILM.

quote:

TVH- Wasn't Shatner originally wanting to direct this one

Nope, Paramount wanted Nimoy, and Shatner was already busy doing TJ Hooker on the side. The issue here was that they originally hired Meerson and Krikes to write the script with Bennett, for Eddie Murphy. Their script was tossed and they approached Nick Meyer to co-write it. Bennett and ILM wound up feuding.

quote:

FF- The script was in development hell for awhile, and the visual effects ended up being handed over to a studio that was not ready for this kind of project since ILM was not available

I have never bought the "ILM was not available" argument. They were moving their VistaFlex camera between studios during the production of Wrath of Khan and Back to the Future, they had the experience with that. And the budget was there. ILM was just loving done with Bennett.

quote:

TUC- All the behind-the-scenes stuff between Nimoy, Meyer, etc.

Plus the movie getting canceled at least once.

Timby fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jul 8, 2019

# ? Jul 8, 2019 03:12

Winifred Madgers: Feb 12, 2002

Final Frontier was also filmed during a writers' strike, wasn't it?

# ? Jul 8, 2019 03:44

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

You can tell the value of a smooth production cycle, of all of those, Search for Spock has a really firm backbone and just tons of authenticity and heft. I really think it's been overlooked as a standout film, and the culmination of what TOS stands for.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 04:00

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Definitely much more than some crap like Into Darkness, which was definitely the peak of unnecessary and unwelcome "foisted" male-gaze homoeroticism. That film doesn't have anything for anyone who isn't a man who wants to kiss Benedict Cumberbatch on the mouth.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 04:03

Farmer Crack-Ass: Jan 2, 2001; this is me posting irl

also it had perhaps the single biggest impact on Trek aesthetics of any movie. check out the hot designs that were introduced in The Search For Spock that persisted across the next two decades of Trek media, stretching into TNG and DS9:

# ? Jul 8, 2019 04:31

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

The Oberth should not exist.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 04:57

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# ? May 23, 2024 05:38

Kibbles n Shits: Apr 8, 2006; burgerpug.png; Fun Shoe

Surviving an assignment aboard an Oberth class vessel is the most underappreciated accomplishment one can make in their Starfleet career.

# ? Jul 8, 2019 05:07

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

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