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My recollection is that Christian talks to the elder about having sex with Maja and is presented with the drug shortly afterward. He is told it will “open him up” to new experiences, which he interprets as sex with Maja because she’s trying to catch his attention from the background. E: And, yeah, broadly agree with the sentiment on the last page.
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Jul 9, 2019 20:14
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Xealot posted:Also, did I miss this from the last few pages, or is it news?
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Jul 9, 2019 20:17
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Most of the things in the movie were foreshadowed well. But the thing that took me by surprise most was Dani and Christian had been dating for four years. They didn't act that way as a couple at all (obviously intentional and contrasted with the couple who had been together about the same amount and was getting married), but even during the opening Dani is worrying to her friend about burdening Christian and chasing him away for being too needy. I assumed it was because he was a new boyfriend at that point.
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Jul 9, 2019 20:17
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So for those of you that think Christian is responsible for his infidelity due to accepting the drink, how do you feel about Dani’s responsibility in choosing that he dies? Because they both drank the drugs under basically the same circumstances. And to be clear. I don’t think Christian is a sympathetic character and It’s not surprising that no one minded seeing him go. He’s a dick. I just think it’s weird how monstrous people make him out to be when he really wasn’t.
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Jul 9, 2019 20:54
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Christian is very average. But in the context of the story, if the point of the cult is community and feeling held or not alone in your tragedy, he's a monster. He's just not a monster in American culture. They literally dress him as a beast and call him a beast or a monster and set him on fire for this. Dani suffers by herself, as quiet as possible, excusing herself to the bathroom 3 times in his presence. The whole suffering in silence thing is the point, I think. Whereas the cult makes a pageantry of suffering, a celebration and community out of it.
Donovan Trip fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 20:57
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veni veni veni posted:Did you see the conversation with the elder as Christian expressing interest in hooking up with her? Did you feel he wasn’t under pressure to drink the kool aid? Did you think he was in his right mind in that entire scenario? Was it even something he could have escaped? If so we have very different takes on it. To the first point, yes absolutely. He could have easily just said “my girlfriend is here and I’m not interested, but thanks.” He didn’t do a single thing to even hint that he wasn’t interested. Sure there was pressure to drink the drink but he’s a grown man and if he can’t tell a little girl no then I don’t know what to say. And they had no reason to believe they were in danger at that point so in his mind I’m sure he thought he could easily escape if he wanted to.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:00
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veni veni veni posted:So for those of you that think Christian is responsible for his infidelity due to accepting the drink, how do you feel about Dani’s responsibility in choosing that he dies? Because they both drank the drugs under basically the same circumstances. The drugs are there to reveal these characters as they really are. Christian is at heart a liar and a cheat, Dani is at heart a death cultist.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:03
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:The drugs are there to reveal these characters as they really are. Christian is at heart a liar and a cheat, Dani is at heart a death cultist. veni veni veni posted:So for those of you that think Christian is responsible for his infidelity due to accepting the drink, how do you feel about Dani’s responsibility in choosing that he dies? Because they both drank the drugs under basically the same circumstances. It would be the same circumstances if before Dani was offered drugs someone sat her down in private and said “hey we have approved that Christian will be paralyzed, stuffed into a bear carcass, and burned alive.” Without that happening it’s silly to compare them.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:11
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Donovan Trip posted:Christian is very average. But in the context of the story, if the point of the cult is community and feeling held or not alone in your tragedy, he's a monster. He's just not a monster in American culture. They literally dress him as a beast and call him a beast or a monster and set him on fire for this. The one constant I keep seeing with people discussing this movie is them trying to rationalize what each character did to deserve to die. Other than Mark and Josh doing explicitly forbidden things that is no indication that any of them died for reasons other than being needed for a sacrifice. Other villagers were willing to die for the sacrifice, it’s not a punishment. Even in the case of Mark and Josh I think they might have just asked them to leave if it wasn’t human sacrifice festival season.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:24
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tonedef131 posted:Nah, that was a symbolic gesture that they would have done no matter which one she chose. I'm not entirely sure of that. Ingemar (I think was his name?) clearly had a thing for Dani, just like his brother had a thing for the girl in the couple he brought. There was a tinge of vengeance to what happened, in my opinion. Ingmar passionately kisses Dani after she wins the may queen dance. Ingmar chose them, and its reasonable he suggested Christian for the beast sacrifice.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:26
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I think a crucial part of this movie that could be easily missed is the climax of the maypole scene, when Dani finds herself speaking swedish to the other dancers. This imo demonstrates a strong psychic link between the group that cant be misattributed to the drugs and along with the following scenes of the women echoing her despair kind of seals the beginning of her assimilation.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:33
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Donovan Trip posted:I'm not entirely sure of that. Ingemar (I think was his name?) clearly had a thing for Dani, just like his brother had a thing for the girl in the couple he brought. There was a tinge of vengeance to what happened, in my opinion. Ingmar passionately kisses Dani after she wins the may queen dance. Ingmar chose them, and its reasonable he suggested Christian for the beast sacrifice. Pelle definitely cared for her but I think your stretching it in saying he suggested Christian. He was the only outsider left so he was one of the choices by default. They already had the bear, someone was getting stuffed into it and burned as a surrogate of evil.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:39
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RCarr posted:To the first point, yes absolutely. He could have easily just said “my girlfriend is here and I’m not interested, but thanks.” He didn’t do a single thing to even hint that he wasn’t interested. Sure there was pressure to drink the drink but he’s a grown man and if he can’t tell a little girl no then I don’t know what to say. And they had no reason to believe they were in danger at that point so in his mind I’m sure he thought he could easily escape if he wanted to. Yeah, homeboy could've just poured out the glass in the grass, since until that point there was no inclination from the character that he felt in direct danger. He also could've not gaslit his girlfriend, or pressured her into taking drugs she didn't want to take, or acted aggressively when his behavior/decisions was brought into question, etc. Christian was an indecisive douchebag who didn't want to break up with a girl he clearly didn't care for in the off chance that he might've regretted it down the line, and then felt obligated to stick around after what happened to her family (y'know, the poo poo she'd been concerned about, that he blew off). His entire reason for staying in the relationship stemmed from his selfishness, and that selfishness permeated every decision his character made in the movie. Dani having to apologize for trying to discuss the Sweden trip was a huge red flag of emotional abuse and manipulation, and those red flags kept coming. The dude didn't deserve to get berenstain'd but it's tough for me to call him sympathetic. Ibexaz fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 21:44
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I do not know why but the "I did not remind him it was my birthday" stuck with me.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:54
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Christian dying is less a condemnation of his behavior and more about Dani's choices. If Dani had picked Torbjorn for the sacrifice, she would have chosen to accept that people leave relationships to pursue their own independent needs and desires. Instead she chooses to live in a society where that never happens and even death is used to serve the needs of a collective. I think you're supposed to be judging Dani's decision rather than judging whether Christian deserved to die on a moral level.
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Jul 9, 2019 21:59
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:I do not know why but the "I did not remind him it was my birthday" stuck with me. All of the birthday stuff was super subtle foreshadowing and has been very underdiscussed. For me “Don’t think like that, it’s almost your birthday” was the most devastating line in the movie.
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Jul 9, 2019 22:02
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pospysyl posted:Christian dying is less a condemnation of his behavior and more about Dani's choices. If Dani had picked Torbjorn for the sacrifice, she would have chosen to accept that people leave relationships to pursue their own independent needs and desires. Instead she chooses to live in a society where that never happens and even death is used to serve the needs of a collective. I think you're supposed to be judging Dani's decision rather than judging whether Christian deserved to die on a moral level. Yeah, I can agree with this. It's not a happy ending, more tragedy than comedy in my eyes, despite my theaters roarous laughter. I don't expect Ari Aster to ever give me a film where the protagonist makes the "right" choice. I think this movie spends so much time in that pending/post breakup miasma from the perspective of the abused partner that I didn't really expect Dani to make the "right" choice.
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Jul 9, 2019 22:14
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The impression I got was that 9 people needed to be sacrificed. If some or most of those 9 could be outsiders, great. If not, 9 members of the cult would have to do. I think there’s an important distinction here between the grand machinations of the Hereditary cult and the adherences to tradition of the Midsommar cult. Like i don’t think that it was some big plan for Dani to be Mayqueen from the start, like girls dropping intentionally during the dancing or something. She just happened to win and they’re like ‘neat, this is a good omen’
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Jul 9, 2019 22:19
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tha_hotstepper posted:I think a crucial part of this movie that could be easily missed is the climax of the maypole scene, when Dani finds herself speaking swedish to the other dancers. This imo demonstrates a strong psychic link between the group that cant be misattributed to the drugs and along with the following scenes of the women echoing her despair kind of seals the beginning of her assimilation. This was an excellent scene. However, I've been hosed-up enough to think I'm holding a conversation in Russian when in fact I'm just speaking gibberish and being mocked by the person I'm talking to. But I didn't know that until a third party told me the next day. In other words, that scene is probably a delusion on Dani's part. But yeah it's a moment of emotional impact regardless.
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Jul 9, 2019 22:21
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Ibexaz posted:Yeah, I can agree with this. It's not a happy ending, more tragedy than comedy in my eyes, despite my theaters roarous laughter. I don't expect Ari Aster to ever give me a film where the protagonist makes the "right" choice. I think this movie spends so much time in that pending/post breakup miasma from the perspective of the abused partner that I didn't really expect Dani to make the "right" choice. i'm not confident there was a "right" choice, although you could argue that from a utilitarian standpoint, the choice she made was the least bad option.
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Jul 9, 2019 22:22
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Remembering your girlfriend of 4 years birthday is probably the easiest gimme to show you think about her at all. Like how hard is it to remember after four years one day out of the year
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Jul 9, 2019 22:27
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aster has been up-front about this film being a fairy tale and, like any fairy tale story, it uses fantastical acts of violence to punish bad behavior Snow White’s happy ending includes Snow White and her prince forcing the evil queen to dance herself to death. cindarella’s happy ending has the titular character’s doves peck out the eyes of her sisters. i interpreted the end of midsommar much the same way. it’s a happy ending because the monster is “punished” for its moral failings and the heroine is rewarded for quietly suffering through various tests. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 22:58
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QuoProQuid posted:aster has been up-front about this film being a fairy tale and, like any fairy tale story, it uses fantastical acts of violence to punish bad behavior I purposely didn’t read or watch anything about the film before seeing it, but this makes sense and I plan to see it again with this in mind.
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Jul 9, 2019 23:14
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QuoProQuid posted:aster has been up-front about this film being a fairy tale and, like any fairy tale story, it uses fantastical acts of violence to punish bad behavior I think the problem with taking this interpretation at face value is that Dani is also kind of a monster and half of the victims did nothing to deserve it Like, its a twisted story presented with fairy tale logic but I wouldn't go so far as to look at as actually sincere in that presentation
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Jul 9, 2019 23:17
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Dani is also kind of a monster How so?
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Jul 9, 2019 23:52
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https://shop.a24films.com/collections/featured/products/bear-in-a-cage
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Jul 10, 2019 00:06
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think the problem with taking this interpretation at face value is that Dani is also kind of a monster and half of the victims did nothing to deserve it I mean, in a very literal and legalistic sense, yes. Being skinned alive is not an appropriate punishment for pissing on a dead tree and being an abusive boyfriend doesn’t deserve immolation. But the film doesn’t encourage you to think about its events literally. It encourages you to think about them the same way the cult does, as mystical and allegorical. From this vantage Dani isn’t responsible because Christian has withdrawn himself from society’s protection through his impiety. You could probably make the argument that the film presents the viewer with a choice to accept the cult’s “twisted fairy tale logic” as the price of community or to accept the freedom of the outside world knowing, as Dany knows, that it is cold, disordered, and isolating. Dani ultimately takes the former approach, and for her the ending is a happy one, but the viewer might make another.
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Jul 10, 2019 00:07
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Blast Fantasto posted:‘neat, this is a good omen’ The fish really is the clear example of how they treat tradition. They asked her to eat it, then told her too, then physically tried to make her. But like there is no scene of her tied to a chair with them forcing fish into her mouth. They will put their thumb on the scale to make things happen, but to a point and they really do let fate decide.
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Jul 10, 2019 00:18
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One thing I wonder about is that, if I'm not mistaken this ritual has not been performed for 90 years. So none of the cultists have ever done anything like this. Presumably they see people jump to their deaths every year (semi voluntarily) , but kidnapping outsiders and even using their own members for brutal human sacrifice is new territory. But everyone seems totally fine with it, giddy even. like it's just another yearly festival. You'd think once poo poo got real and people were being skinned and burned alive it might trigger some pretty big issues amongst the group once they witnessed how hosed up what they were doing was.
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Jul 10, 2019 00:31
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:How so? She accepts the murders of five people including 3 total innocents in exchange for having a place that accepts her
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Jul 10, 2019 00:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:She accepts the murders of five people including 3 total innocents in exchange for having a place that accepts her Could you explain your numberology here? For example, who were the 3 innocents?
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Jul 10, 2019 01:02
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Oh my god https://mobile.twitter.com/Gowatchamovie/status/1148677456393646080
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Jul 10, 2019 01:04
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Budgie Jumping posted:Could you explain your numberology here? For example, who were the 3 innocents? The other couple they meet didn’t really do anything wrong. Christian’s two friends did some stuff that was “wrong” by the rules of the cult but didn’t warrant being skinned or butchered. Christian did a whole lot of stuff that was wrong, but burning alive may or may not have been a bit extreme (jury’s still out)
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Jul 10, 2019 01:11
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This movie was beautiful to look at, but unfortunately my experience with it was heavily dampened by the most obnoxious people I had to deal with in a theater. Holy poo poo, shut up you vapid idiots. I'll try to see it again this weekend.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:12
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Budgie Jumping posted:Could you explain your numberology here? For example, who were the 3 innocents? The British couple and Josh
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Jul 10, 2019 01:19
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The Brits loudly told them to gently caress off, that they're crazy and sick. They disrespected the atestupa. Josh broke into their Temple to photograph their private works. From their point of view this is taboo.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:22
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I took the film to be a surreal slasher flick. The characters were just fodder to grind through. Even Josh turned into a greedy dumbass. The cult was basically setting them up to fall for their moral failures. It was probably mentioned, but the way the costume colors are used was cool. All the cultists wear white and the outsiders color. Josh wears a white t-shirt during the cliff jumpy part, showing his character is at least trying to intellectually understand the cult. Dani is first donned with white when the cultist woman gives her an apron.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:23
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:The other couple they meet didn’t really do anything wrong. By your morality (which is totally good and I share it), sure. But If I was a... one of those weird swedes, I would argue that Josh and the two brits acted in a way that threatened the continued existence of my community. That's a paddling. Mark pissed on the graves of me and everyone I know's grandparents. That's a paddling. gently caress those guys, their lives are forfeit. The skinning and the butchering and the vivisecting... well, I'm sure there's a cosmological justification for that. Insofar as Dani's concerned, I think this sense of morality took hold of her via cultural osmosis. I don't think she should be considered a monster.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:27
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I'm not really sure we should be applying cultural relativism to ritualistically torturing people to death Like this movie seems to be a weirdly good litmus test for whether or not someone's kind of unhinged
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Jul 10, 2019 01:31
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Budgie Jumping posted:By your morality (which is totally good and I share it), sure. But If I was a... one of those weird swedes, I would argue that Josh and the two brits acted in a way that threatened the continued existence of my community. That's a paddling. Mark pissed on the graves of me and everyone I know's grandparents. That's a paddling. gently caress those guys, their lives are forfeit. The skinning and the butchering and the vivisecting... well, I'm sure there's a cosmological justification for that. Right, but Mel was initially talking specifically about these crimes in relation to Dani’s reaction to them, not the rest of the cult’s, so I do think their point is valid. I do agree with you though that I have a hard time judging Dani for it after the wringer she’s put through over the course of the movie.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:31
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