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Metapod posted:its harder to get out of clan disciplines that's why getting the discipline from the predator type is very good and cool instead of 3rd dot in a clan discipline assuming you want to make a nontraditional character That's not necessarily true, and the way it's harder is the cool in-character way that provides for bigger in-game challenges and roleplaying opportunities. Conversely, it's always less expensive than boosting your mainline powers to new heights. How come nontraditional characters end up behind on XP than traditional characters? Wouldn't you want to reward rather than punish people for branching out in unusual ways?
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Aug 1, 2019 02:25
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| # ? May 12, 2024 15:55 |
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does v5 use the classic lore where the sabbat kills like a million people every year in open-air blood festivals? does it have bloodlines i can invent?
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Aug 1, 2019 02:26
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The sabbats back baby!
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Aug 1, 2019 02:31
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Ferrinus posted:That's not necessarily true, and the way it's harder is the cool in-character way that provides for bigger in-game challenges and roleplaying opportunities. Conversely, it's always less expensive than boosting your mainline powers to new heights. How come nontraditional characters end up behind on XP than traditional characters? Wouldn't you want to reward rather than punish people for branching out in unusual ways? you are a vampire that is naturally gifted at 3 abilities so it is easier for you learn but you see this other vampire do this sick rear end ability so you want to learn it but since it does not come naturally to you it requires more work to master
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Aug 1, 2019 02:32
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Ferrinus posted:That's not necessarily true, and the way it's harder is the cool in-character way that provides for bigger in-game challenges and roleplaying opportunities. Conversely, it's always less expensive than boosting your mainline powers to new heights. How come nontraditional characters end up behind on XP than traditional characters? Wouldn't you want to reward rather than punish people for branching out in unusual ways? I've read all your posts and don't quite understand what specifically the hangup is. You said the fix would be easy, what is it?
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Aug 1, 2019 02:33
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Also you have a bad ST if they hand out out of clan disciplines too easily This is something feeding types help you get around making character creation more diverse Oberst fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 02:34
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GNU Order posted:I've read all your posts and don't quite understand what specifically the hangup is. Off the top of my head, that predator type gives you X amount of XP toward Disciplines, of which you must spend as much of as you can. Easier solutions are probably things like, 'it always gives you a third dot in a Discipline of which you already had two dots' or something to that effect. In other words, something that maintains parity. I mean, nobody is saying these things destroy games or whatever, but WW games have used point-based character generation and scaling XP based character development for time immemorial. That it causes characters to grow at different rates is in arguable and believed me, this exact argument has been rehashed to death since the first edition of the game. From a design perspective it is absolutely better not to mix dot-based gen with multiplier-based development and it is not balanced because of how out of clans work because that presupposes you're buying an out of clan dot, which is just a different kind of advantage without a balancing XP factor. Is it a huge deal? Nope! It's totally a mark in the game's favor that it doesn't do this as much as other WW lines, actually. But it's a valid problem. Just remember these are all separate arguments: "Does this ruin the game"/"Is this good design"/"Is the game fun"/"Is this mechanic fun"/"How do we fix it"/"Should we fix it" and traditionally the problem that splits groups I've been a part of is some people start arguing one of the questions against someone else who thinks the question is something totally different and everybody leaves unhappy.
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Aug 1, 2019 02:50
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are there any mosquito vampires?
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Aug 1, 2019 02:53
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The xp costs dont matter Predator types make the game more diverse Oberst fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 02:55
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juggalo baby coffin posted:are there any mosquito vampires? And can mosquitos self-ghoul by drinking your blood
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Aug 1, 2019 02:56
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Metapod posted:you are a vampire that is naturally gifted at 3 abilities so it is easier for you learn but you see this other vampire do this sick rear end ability so you want to learn it but since it does not come naturally to you it requires more work to master I think you literally don't understand what we're talking about. This isn't about the fact that in-clan costs New Rating x5 and out-of-clan costs New Rating x7. The XP cost of a Discipline is proportionate to its new rating. Buying the first dot is much cheaper than buying the third dot. So, if you get a free +1 dot to a discipline of your choice, turning a 2 into a 3 gives you way more effective XP than turning a 0 into a 1 -- even if that 1 is out-of-clan, and the 3 is in clan. We're talking about 15 free XP compared to 7 free XP. (also compared to 10 free XP if you go from 2-1 into 2-2, also compared to 5 free xp if for some reason you take a 1 in your third clan discipline) Attribute and skill assignment is carefully sorted into "arrays" rather than being done dot-by-dot, so that specialists and generalists end up with the same effective XP count. But predator types break this system, for no real reason. GNU Order posted:I've read all your posts and don't quite understand what specifically the hangup is. Either Predator Type just gives you 15 xp to spend only on the indicated disciplines, or Predator Type always gives you the first dot of an out-of-clan power (or the first dot of a power period, and if it's in-clan you get a 2xp rebate), and can't be used to buy a 3, or make all Discipline dots cost the same flat amount, or something else.
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Aug 1, 2019 03:03
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The Predator Type and Discipline argument is dumb. This is a stupid game built to play with your friends not some excel spreadsheet for your boss.
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Aug 1, 2019 03:15
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Ferrinus posted:I think you literally don't understand what we're talking about. This isn't about the fact that in-clan costs New Rating x5 and out-of-clan costs New Rating x7. the predator type gives you more than 1 dot though theres a whole bunch of character traits it gives so you can have a sweet unique character that presents new challenges for you to solve i dont really understand why getting 1 dot in a discipline is bad thing
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Aug 1, 2019 03:16
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Metapod posted:the predator type gives you more than 1 dot though theres a whole bunch of character traits it gives so you can have a sweet unique character that presents new challenges for you to solve i dont really understand why getting 1 dot in a discipline is bad thing Do you understand why attribute and skill dots are parceled out in arrays rather than everyone getting the same number of dots?
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Aug 1, 2019 03:17
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Ferrinus posted:Do you understand why attribute and skill dots are parceled out in arrays rather than everyone getting the same number of dots? yes ive read the rulebook
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Aug 1, 2019 03:18
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Metapod posted:yes ive read the rulebook I said "why", not "that". Do you understand WHY the game uses arrays, and why the arrays have the exact distributions they do?
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Aug 1, 2019 03:23
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What's the go to book to get into Mage?
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Aug 1, 2019 03:23
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Wiccan Wasteland posted:What's the go to book to get into Mage? The Mage thread is that way, friend
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Aug 1, 2019 03:24
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Wiccan Wasteland posted:What's the go to book to get into Mage? Guide to the Technocracy
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Aug 1, 2019 03:24
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Ferrinus posted:I said "why", not "that". Do you understand WHY the game uses arrays, and why the arrays have the exact distributions they do? Metapod posted:yes ive read the rulebook
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Aug 1, 2019 03:24
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Could you explain why it's a good idea?
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Aug 1, 2019 03:30
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Ferrinus posted:Could you explain why it's a good idea? yeah but i'd prefer to stay on topic on how predator types are awesome
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Aug 1, 2019 03:34
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Metapod posted:yeah but i'd prefer to stay on topic on how predator types are awesome I don't think you can, because it would force you to confront the obvious and easily-rectified design flaw with predator types, which are otherwise a good addition to the game.
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Aug 1, 2019 03:37
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lmfao the design flaw of being able to create an interesting character where your choice matters for the entire story because it gives you merits flaws and a dot you can put in a discipline you may or may not know. Oh no not the terrible dynamic character creation option
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Aug 1, 2019 03:43
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Wiccan Wasteland posted:What's the go to book to get into Mage? Metapod posted:lmfao the design flaw of being able to create an interesting character where your choice matters for the entire story because it gives you merits flaws and a dot you can put in a discipline you may or may not know. Oh no not the terrible dynamic character creation option
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Aug 1, 2019 03:43
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Arguing with Ferrinus is like wrestling a tree. You can do it, but he's not going to budge, you're going to get tired, and in the end nothing will be accomplished by it.
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Aug 1, 2019 03:47
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Metapod posted:lmfao the design flaw of being able to create an interesting character where your choice matters for the entire story because it gives you merits flaws and a dot you can put in a discipline you may or may not know. Oh no not the terrible dynamic character creation option You seem to genuinely do not understand what my complaint is. Do you think you could summarize what you think I'm saying in your own words so that I can figure out what's confusing you?
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Aug 1, 2019 03:52
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I think you are arguing predator types are flawed because you have ability to make a suboptimal character based on dot levels while ignoring that not all dot levels are equal and the game is more than making the optimal character
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Aug 1, 2019 04:03
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MollyMetroid posted:Arguing with Ferrinus is like wrestling a tree. You can do it, but he's not going to budge, you're going to get tired, and in the end nothing will be accomplished by it. and also the tree is right
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Aug 1, 2019 04:11
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MollyMetroid posted:Arguing with Ferrinus is like wrestling a tree. You can do it, but he's not going to budge, you're going to get tired, and in the end nothing will be accomplished by it. Also he's completely correct here.
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Aug 1, 2019 04:15
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Metapod posted:I think you are arguing predator types are flawed because you have ability to make a suboptimal character based on dot levels while ignoring that not all dot levels are equal and the game is more than making the optimal character This isn't really a matter of "suboptimal". A Gangrel who buys Claws of the Wild but also has Strength 1 and Brawl 0 is suboptimal by most standards, and I'm not complaining that the game allows you to make them. This is specifically about two players who have characters with equal stat spreads and yet who have different amounts of XP to spend, because they bought the same (or equivalent) traits in the wrong order. I think it's fine if the traits that one player buys with XP end up "suboptimal" compared to the traits some other player buys with XP, especially if the first player is just allowed to take it back and spend that XP elsewhere once they tell the ST they're dissatisfied. But one player straight-up having more XP to spend, or it being unclear how many XP to refund someone because the exact same array is worth different amounts of XP depending on the historical accidents involved in acquiring that array, is bad in a way totally unrelated to some clan being OP or some power being suboptimal. This used to be a problem with ability dot distribution, but V5 fixed it. Back in older editions of vampire, people who sound exactly like you do now would swear up and down that there was nothing, nothing wrong at all, with getting 11 dots to put into a category whether you did 5/5/1 or 3/2/2/2/2. But, it got fixed, which is one of the reasons that V5 is better than, say, VtM Revised or V20.
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Aug 1, 2019 04:20
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Ferrinus posted:Go on. Okay, so. The example in the book is terrible. Some of the people on the WoD5 Discord spoke with Karim on Facebook to get further clarification, based on how the text reads separate from the example. Their FAQ is here, with more tidbits from Karim: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hmck6JnWhYZCkhcwphL5sUIoAvrpi9_wlsm0u3OIDJU/edit Basically, combat resolves as follows: Characters can either try to damage each other, or the defender can attempt to dodge the attack(s) or do both things. All attacks happen at the same time, not 'I attack on my initiative and James attempts to hurt me back, then James attacks me on his initiative and I attempt to hurt him back'. You do your contest of your combat pool vs. someone else's combat pool, and that's the combat action for you and that person. - In a 1v1, you roll your attack vs. their attack (or your attack vs. their dodge, or the reverse if they're attacking you), no splitting. Winner does their margin + weapon damage in damage; on a tie, both do a margin of 1 + weapon damage. - In a Xv1, you have three options: -- Attack back against everyone attacking you/declare against multiple targets (this is implied, not spelled out, and is further spelled out by the Arms of Ahriman rules in CbN), at which point you split your pool. So for three guys attacking you, or you attacking three guys, you would divide your pool 3 ways if you wanted to try to hit them all back, and they all roll with their full pools vs your split. (IE: Each enemy has a pool of 6, and you have a pool of 9; you divide your pool to have 3 dice against each). Splitting isn't an optimal attack method unless you're up against low end 'mooks' with low pools, like when the ST would use the Simple Antagonists rules. -- Dodge all of them. You roll your dodge pool against their attack pool, with a deprecating defense penalty. (IE: You roll defense vs. full attack, defense -1 vs. full attack, defense -2 against full attack). -- Attack one person back, then dodge. So you do option A (attack vs. attack) against one, then dodge -1/dodge -2/etc. as per option B. To illustrate: ** DETAILED COMBAT EXAMPLES USING SIMPLE COMBAT AS CONFIRMED ACCURATE BY KARIM** Scenario A: T is attacked by A, B and C. T wants to try to damage them all back. T has an attack pool of 8. T chooses to split 2/3/3 against A/B/C. A, B and C all use their full attack pool. The person with the highest margin does damage, or on a tie it's a margin of 1 + any weapon damage. Scenario B: T wants to dodge A, B and C. T has a dodge pool of 6. A rolls attack against T's dodge pool with no penalty. B rolls attack against T's dodge pool -1 (5 dice) C rolls attack against T's dodge pool -2 (4 dice) Scenario C: T is attacked by A, B and C. T wants to damage C (as the weakest link) and dodge A and B. Karim clarified that you DO switch pools when you do this, despite the example not showing that. T has an attack pool of 8 and a dodge pool of 6. T and C roll their attacks against each other per Scenario A. A rolls attack against T's dodge pool -1 (5 dice) per Scenario B B rolls attack against T's dodge pool -2 (4 dice) per Scenario B For Ranged combat, it's a little different: If two targets are shooting at each other, they both roll a contested ATTR+Firearms to do damage to each other, as there is cover assumed (think of it like the movies where guy leans out from behind something, lets off some shots and leans back in). If a target is actively dodging, it's ATTR+Firearms vs Dex+Athletics, with modifications for cover as described on pg. 125 If a target has no access to cover at all, and isn't trying to dodge, then it's a roll vs. Difficulty 2 (2 successes needed), with the margin damage done as normal. You'd apply any of the above to Ranged combat when it's appropriate (three guys firing at one guy, for example). Does that illustrate it a bit better for you? If not, let me know and I can post some more detailed examples. In theory, it still looks like a lot of rolls, but it's not as slow as you'd think, even if you're doing something like dodging against multiple opponents, with the removal of 'roll to soak, roll for damage'. I can get through an entire combat with four PCs and up to about five or six NPCs in about 45 minutes if everyone is on the ball (and that's rolling out the whole conflict, not even using 'three and out' or other ways to use the narrative and combat in concert) versus needing much more time in Revised (or much LESS time if someone had a high Celerity and just busted every enemy with an extra action). MoonKnight fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 04:23
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Most of the rules for these games are pretty bad. I imagine you could make a greatly simplified version of all of this stuff, even using the same core idea ("add your attribute+ability, roll that number of D10s") and it would be nothing but good for the game as a whole. The setting is its own Metapod posted:I think you are arguing predator types are flawed because you have ability to make a suboptimal character based on dot levels while ignoring that not all dot levels are equal and the game is more than making the optimal character The player in any individual case may not care, but why have the system be that way? Tradition? Religious value? Is it some kind of core conceit of the setting, somehow, the equivalent of "a beast I am lest a beast I become"? Nessus fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 04:28
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The difference of xp is like 5 if you decide to do 2/2 of your clan instead of 3/1 that's a pretty insignificant amount
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Aug 1, 2019 04:33
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MoonKnight posted:Does that illustrate it a bit better for you? If not, let me know and I can post some more detailed examples. In theory, it still looks like a lot of rolls, but it's not as slow as you'd think, even if you're doing something like dodging against multiple opponents, with the removal of 'roll to soak, roll for damage'. I can get through an entire combat with four PCs and up to about five or six NPCs in about 45 minutes if everyone is on the ball (and that's rolling out the whole conflict, not even using 'three and out' or other ways to use the narrative and combat in concert) versus needing much more time in Revised (or much LESS time if someone had a high Celerity and just busted every enemy with an extra action). Cool, that helps a lot. My other big complaint about V5 was with the combat system, but I guess I now know that it's with the explanation of the combat system - what you're describing looks good. A couple more questions: 1. It says that the general order of resolution is already-close combat, firearms attacks, and people entering close combat. Does that mean that something wonky happens if my character is charging yours and yours has a gun, but mine hasn't actually closed with yours as the round begins? Or do we just roll my Brawl vs. your Firearms? 2. There's that Celerity power that lets you attack so quickly no defense is possible. What happens if I use it to attack you, and you attack me normally back? Is it like, I deal damage to you as though you'd rolled no successes, and you deal damage to me based on your margin vs. my successes?
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Aug 1, 2019 04:33
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Metapod posted:The difference of xp is like 5 if you decide to do 2/2 of your clan instead of 3/1 that's a pretty insignificant amount The worst possible XP difference is actually 10, since +1 to your highest clan discipline is 15xp while the first dot in your third clan discipline is 5xp. This is, I will grant you, a much lower difference than the kind of huge differentials you could get in Revised or VtR 1e. ...or is it? Because you get, by default, 1xp per session, which is much less than the old standards. Even in the most benign case, we're talking one player being five sessions ahead of other, or maybe four sessions and a completed story. Either way, you seem to have reached the bargaining stage. Why shouldn't the difference be 0?
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Aug 1, 2019 04:37
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Metapod posted:The difference of xp is like 5 if you decide to do 2/2 of your clan instead of 3/1 that's a pretty insignificant amount Like the underlying issue here is that in a WoD game certain abilities and attributes are gonna be way more useful than others, often comically so.
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Aug 1, 2019 04:39
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I just watched Body Melt and it's the closest thing to a Freak Legion movie we'll ever get (or want.) Up until now, Halloween 3 had been my go-to Pentex explanation but this is somehow even more so.
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Aug 1, 2019 04:45
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now that we know that V5 is bad or whatever we can go back to talking about inventing different types of cool new vampire
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Aug 1, 2019 04:45
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juggalo baby coffin posted:now that we know that V5 is bad or whatever we can go back to talking about inventing different types of cool new vampire
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Aug 1, 2019 04:48
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