|
Verranicus posted:Has all the bullshit wrt Ooblets come from the dude or has the lady running the show also been posting "gently caress you, got epic" poo poo.
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 02:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 21:10 |
|
|
The lady made the whole game, she only made one comment on discord but so far it's only been that dude. I really feel bad for her, she used to do graphic design at a soulless publisher and quit her job so she could make the game of her dreams.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 02:33
|
|
|
Ka0 posted:The lady made the whole game, she only made one comment on discord but so far it's only been that dude. I really feel bad for her, she used to do graphic design at a soulless publisher and quit her job so she could make the game of her dreams. If most of this is coming from the lovely dude then yeah that blows
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 02:38
|
|
|
Ka0 posted:The lady made the whole game, she only made one comment on discord but so far it's only been that dude. I really feel bad for her, she used to do graphic design at a soulless publisher and quit her job so she could make the game of her dreams. yeah, the art designs are really loving cute. Verranicus posted:If most of this is coming from the lovely dude then yeah that blows it almost always is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 02:49
|
|
|
Rebecca is definitely being lovely about it as well (“I don’t understand why any game store should have a shopping cart,” “nobody who’s upset about this would have bought our game anyways”) but she’s wrapping it up in cutesy language so people aren’t reporting on it as much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 02:55
|
|
|
Didn't she also double down on the "Well no one owes you a game" poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 03:11
|
|
|
tbf she hasn't gotten super defensive about using memes that insult autistic people unlike the dude
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 03:21
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:Rebecca is definitely being lovely about it as well (“I don’t understand why any game store should have a shopping cart,” “nobody who’s upset about this would have bought our game anyways”) but she’s wrapping it up in cutesy language so people aren’t reporting on it as much. Honestly the way they act all twee is almost worse than the lovely attitude. My wife was interested in the game til she saw how they acted after Epic bought them, and now she's lost interest because even if the game is cute as heck to her she knows that the people behind it are pricks so the cuteness isn't genuine which makes it, like.. wrong feeling.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 03:34
|
|
|
So other than the 70/30 payout split (I guess), what exactly has Steam done to earn a collective shunning from the games press as well the vocal complaining from smaller developers compared to other online stores? General complaints outside of this newfound revenue complaint all seem to fall into a general assumption their game and efforts should be successful and sustainable? Again, if you killed all capitalism overnight sure but I don't think that will solve the problem of nobody caring about your particular art even if it's free. The Steam storefront can be poisoned by trash, but no more than any other digital storefront which has reached significant enough mass- just look at the critic darling itch.io and its nightmare of a storefront. When I'm looking for a specific product it's never really an issue and considering the refund policy the typical customer is almost always covered if they buy a turd, way better than anything the consoles offer. I mean, if cluttered bad storefronts are an issue then most pundits haven't looked at Origin recently where they actively hide prices and bury cheaper versions of a game. The complaints about review bombing and target forum harassment I can get, but seems like such an insignificant part of a given game's failure in the grant scheme of things. The bizarre side-eye the games press continues to give Steam and Valve, see Kotaku/Giant Bomb/Gamespot et all, while using the "it's just one more launcher" to support Epic just comes off as scuzzy. I enjoyed the outrage over having to use a Bethesda.net service to sign into that new Wolfenstein game as something odious in a recent GB podcast when the mandatory Epic launcher piece tends to be back ended into the conversation every time. Ironic considering I remember the outrage in 2007--2010 over Valve (as well as the console stores) not letting enough "poor suffering indies" onto their storefront. Now I guess we need curators because too many people are here, but said curation can only subscribe to the Bay Area/Downtown Manhattan/very online pundit's specific tastes. I downloaded the Epic launcher originally when they gave away Shadow Complex a dog's age ago, but uninstalled and cancelled my account when it had several attempted logins- something which has never happened with any other storefront I've used online. I distrusted it from that and the holier-than-thou talk from Epic's end generally turned me off from using it. It's odd, I don't really care about using Origin/UPlay or even the goddamned Bethesda.net service (which I probably should be) as they at least take part in making the game somehow. I even wasted my previous hours going through Maniaplanet logins back in the day before Nadeo accidentally killed their own game. Steam, for all it's issues, just works from my end as third party storefront, especially since their gifting and code purchasing features are the best in the business. Origin, Uplay, etc are a goddamned nightmare to use for gifting in the past although thankfully they're at least getting there. The G2A loophole abuse of that feature is lovely, sure, but again I'd rather see a more open and useful storefront like steam any day.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
LackinPants! posted:So other than the 70/30 payout split (I guess), what exactly has Steam done to earn a collective shunning from the games press as well the vocal complaining from smaller developers compared to other online stores? Giant Bomb specifically you can see it building through the years (they've mentioned a few times that they used to use Steam's new releases tab a lot to find out what games to cover and one of the content producers would basically explode over the amount of stuff there was to wade through) and I also think a lot of those outfits are bothered by Valve/Steam's complete failure (or rather, refusal) to police Steam effectively of political games that have an abhorrent message. Basically take the same reasons people are pissed off about Twitter failing/refusing to do anything about the same problem.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 05:09
|
|
|
what moderation steam does have is also generally opaque and inconsistent
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 05:19
|
|
|
LackinPants! posted:I downloaded the Epic launcher originally when they gave away Shadow Complex a dog's age ago, but uninstalled and cancelled my account when it had several attempted logins- something which has never happened with any other storefront I've used online. whoa you too? brah. exact same experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 05:45
|
|
|
Pylons posted:Giant Bomb specifically you can see it building through the years (they've mentioned a few times that they used to use Steam's new releases tab a lot to find out what games to cover and one of the content producers would basically explode over the amount of stuff there was to wade through) and I also think a lot of those outfits are bothered by Valve/Steam's complete failure (or rather, refusal) to police Steam effectively of political games that have an abhorrent message. Basically take the same reasons people are pissed off about Twitter failing/refusing to do anything about the same problem. However, just like twitter, none of those people can actually come up with a solution for the problem other than "don't allow others to publish stuff I don't like". It's a different ball game when the shoe is on the other foot. I've always been kind of curious how many developers/publishers try to get their game on say GamersGate (which I think doesn't really have a strong content curation policy, people just don't even attempt to get on their store) or GoG and get rejected. Or even EGS for that matter, look at all the great games that aren't on EGS, even recent releases. There have to be some who'd be happy to sell on the platform as a non-exclusive and even pay a small fee for whatever certification process there is, but are they not even trying? Trying and getting rejected? And rejected because EGS doesn't want too many non-exclusives in their store? Rejected because they don't meet Epic's content curation standard?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 05:53
|
|
|
Steam has a genuinely bad community around it because of Valve’s refusal to moderate, to the point that I think Atomwaffen still has an active, unbanned Steam group. Rape simulators and hate crime games find their way in occasionally. If I can put on my *sniff* pure ideology hat here, it’s most likely because the gaming community is an endless battle between neoliberalism and libertarian with an implicit refusal to ever recognize how similar those two standpoints are. So when Steam’s processes allow Hatred, or Rape Day, or that one right-wing Brazilian game about murdering homosexuals on the service, the neoliberals accuse Valve of being the problem when really all they’re doing is being perfect agents of capitalism. Neoliberals love to act like capitalism is great as long as you get rid of the bad actors, and instead of just admitting capitalism is stunting games, they cast Valve as the next bad actor that must be eliminated - or at least “reformed” through competition. No idea illustrates this better than the one that a “curated storefront” would solve indie devs’ problems, which creates the EGS scenario where the biggest and most prominent indie devs* get golden tickets from a billionaire and the prole devs can’t even get on the store. Nobody wants to admit is that the issue is that the number of indie devs and games that they’ve made has hit complete oversaturation and nobody has the time to play even all of the really truly great indie games out there, because they don’t want to confront the terrifying reality that that is a problem that cannot be fixed and will only go away through a classist, elitist “meritocracy.” *Brief reminder that Ooblets had a publishing deal they seemingly willingly abandoned (Double Fine was bought by Microsoft but still has two other games they’re finishing their publishing deals with) and has been in three E3 conferences (2018 Xbox, 2019 Xbox, 2019 PC Gamer.) Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Aug 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 05:58
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:Steam has a genuinely bad community around it because of Valve’s refusal to moderate, to the point that I think Atomwaffen still has an active, unbanned Steam group. Rape simulators and hate crime games find their way in occasionally. I don't think Rape Day or that Brazillian game ever got released on Steam. Although Rape Day is an interesting case, there is another game on Steam called Slave Sword which is an RPG Maker porn game where you play a person whose entire job is to be enslaved and raped. As far as I'm aware there was never any notable push to get that removed so that's fine but Rape Day wasn't. Or in Hatred case, which is still on Steam, how is that really any difference than say Division 2? Despite Massive Entertainments "official" stance, everyone pretty much agrees that's a political game with a disturbing message and it's all about killing people but I would imagine you'd not find anywhere near the number of people who say it should never be released on a platform while saying Hatred should be banned from the store.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 06:09
|
|
|
nessin posted:I've always been kind of curious how many developers/publishers try to get their game on say [...] GoG and get rejected. im spartacus
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 06:31
|
|
|
I bet that game we made decades ago about the console war (rts with wiimotes vs 360 controlers that randomly heated and blew up) would get accepted on Steam.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 07:26
|
|
|
The mental gymnastics done by people defending Epic while also shunning steam are astounding and not based in any kind of reality. If you're trying to find a reason the press don't care, it's because theyre almost all Americans so don't suffer through any of the payment/region issues, and get their games for free so don't actually care about if things are a good deal for the people who actually buy games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 08:17
|
|
|
Epic hasn't really made the 88-12 model work in spite of having a giant pile of Fortnite cash that they're prepared to burn. Steam's split is looking increasingly reasonable to me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 09:33
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Epic hasn't really made the 88-12 model work in spite of having a giant pile of Fortnite cash that they're prepared to burn. Steam's split is looking increasingly reasonable to me. It kind of is working. Market share is slowly raising for Epic, and if they can ever get a firm footing, their platform will make more money for developers. (they'll have to open their doors to more devs, though). I hate paying 30% to Apple, through who my company sells games, and it's really not reasonable. 30% is such a massive number for not much value added at all. Not to say I am an Epic fan, because I am not. And they're doing a lot wrong. But the 88-12 thing would be amazing if it could catch on as an industry metric.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 09:57
|
|
|
Funso Banjo posted:It kind of is working. Market share is slowly raising for Epic, and if they can ever get a firm footing, their platform will make more money for developers. (they'll have to open their doors to more devs, though). I’ll give you a big tip: that extra money is not going to developers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 10:32
|
|
|
BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:I’ll give you a big tip: that extra money is not going to developers. Nah, it'll go to developers until Epic has enough of the suckers in its grubby claws. Then suddenly, shockingly, they'll also be subject to Epic's utter lack of morals. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 10:35
|
|
|
It's not working if every major release has to be bought with exclusivity contracts and they have to pay smaller devs for the first x sales. After they launched the store with a few big indie games and their first deals, they have mainly been interested in sniping highly anticipated games that were about to release on Steam within a year or less, and so far nothing indicates they're willing or able to make it without that crutch (I think Borderlands 3 might be one of very few exceptions because Randy has a personal issue with Steam/GabeN). Steam can charge what they're charging (big titles only pay a 25% or 20% cut anyway) and keep quiet about it because the vast majority of big releases are still coming to Steam (or directly to publisher-exclusive platforms to begin with). EGS defenders always say "30% is not justified" and "no one needs the Steam features" or "Steam features are toxic and bad anyway", but beyond features that don't seem essential to you as a dev but your customers might prefer, basics like forums for troubleshooting or covering payment processing and currency conversion fees in smaller markets has value that's conveniently overlooked by US posters and media, while EGS is all too happy to dump additional fees on the consumer the moment it turns out you would eat a loss with only a 12% cut. But I guess you can claim their business model is "working" while Ubisoft exploits EGS by having the best of three worlds. They're selling pre-orders on Steam for hype/preorder numbers for investors, then get all their third party sales through EGS so they get 88% instead of their 70-80% on Steam, and still guide those who want to cut out the middlemen and those fed up with EGS to Uplay where they make 100% anyway. That sounds healthy (well to Ubisoft it probably is).
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:14
|
|
|
Yeah, GOG also tried to do 12% briefly, but with their "worldwide price, no bullshit" thing they have going it was clear real quick that wouldn't work out for them even remotely, since they pay for regional discrepancies out of their own share, and people not in US/EU buy a shitton of games too, unsurprisingly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:25
|
|
|
It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train. Steam's strategy seems to be "hope our massive locked-in userbase can bully/harass developers into not going elsewhere" rather than "talk for even a drat split second about a better revenue share deal".
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:29
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:Steam has a genuinely bad community around it because of Valve’s refusal to moderate, to the point that I think Atomwaffen still has an active, unbanned Steam group. Rape simulators and hate crime games find their way in occasionally. yeah pretty much. i do think its bad that valve basically lets their communities go to hell and get infested with bigots and weird psychos but part of me thinks outside the end stage capitalism part, alot of their inaction is because they are unsure of how you even solve this problem. the keeping the out and out hosed up games out is easy enough. but what do you do about the communities. they can people but you can just make another account. you can close the communities but 2 will pop up in its place under some german name. Steam is too big to act decisivly against nazis sadly. that being said, they are mostly a loud vocal minority. on ooblets. its still coming for xbone.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:42
|
|
|
danbo posted:It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:45
|
|
|
danbo posted:It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train. Literally all the Ooblets devs had to do was say “we’re going to EGS, for those of you who wanna wait, cool; if not see you soon.” That would still get some blowback but it wouldn’t become the massive cultural phenomenon it has. You don’t need to hire a PR guy for something as basic common sense as this. The 30% revenue share is completely fair and is employed by almost every digital store on the market, including the Windows Store and Google Play. Windows Store even announced a higher revenue share for developers would take place in January 2019, but that date has come and gone and they’ve quietly forgotten they ever said anything about it. If Epic has to pass on transaction fees for every payment method not standard in the US to the consumer, it’s not a sustainable split.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:45
|
|
|
danbo posted:It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train. How did you get a draft of Valve's strategy, because as far as I know, they've been almost entirely silent on the matter
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:53
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:Literally all the Ooblets devs had to do was say “we’re going to EGS, for those of you who wanna wait, cool; if not see you soon.” That would still get some blowback but it wouldn’t become the massive cultural phenomenon it has. You don’t need to hire a PR guy for something as basic common sense as this. don't worry, the greatest critic has come to their defense. https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/1158562186945429510 https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/1158577865266360320 https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/1158581221628076032 seriously. they should have just hired some PR intern who could have spun the poo poo better.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:54
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:Literally all the Ooblets devs had to do was say “we’re going to EGS, for those of you who wanna wait, cool; if not see you soon.” That would still get some blowback but it wouldn’t become the massive cultural phenomenon it has. You don’t need to hire a PR guy for something as basic common sense as this. I really think you do for something like this. PR people deal with blowback (which you agree is inevitable despite the message) without faltering and posting cringe, and know how to not overthink a message in the first place. That's literally their job. EGS could probably provide a temporary community manager, but they don't care too much theirselves (or perhaps there being a big kerfuffle is good for EGS). Also, I don't agree there. The Humble Widget provides a 95% revenue split. It handles payments and DRM-free downloads in a predictably slick fashion, and I don't ever recall paying special fees for being from the UK. This service has been operating for years upon years, it's clearly sustainable. The only missing piece is the storefront, and I don't think it's fair to say that commands an extra 25% when everyone knows storefronts suck rear end. (Game patch distribution too actually, I didn't consider that. Up to you whether that commands the 25%) Broken Cog posted:How did you get a draft of Valve's strategy, because as far as I know, they've been almost entirely silent on the matter Their strategy is to stay silent and hope their userbase does the legwork. I'm sorry, English isn't my first language, perhaps I didn't explain it too well? danbo fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Aug 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 11:58
|
|
|
danbo posted:It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train. agreed at least about the dev. i think the one dude is kinda of prick but as a whole they just needed a half decent PR person say their point. that being said, i am still gonna laugh at epic doubling down and making the situation worse because they want to make the perception one of "culture war" instead of buesness one and a bunch of journalists and critics being fine with that and the nazis getting involved than(though with 8chan dead maybe its less likely)
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:00
|
|
|
orcane posted:I'm sorry but making indie games doesn't immunize them from criticism for posting dumb things on the internet in the year 2019, even though some people on social media are aggressive assholes and trolls. There is this attitude running in some indie devs and modders, thinking they and what they made is some kind of gift of the gods to the world. It has been happening way longer than the current year, and usually results in hugely overblown drama and funny meltdowns.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:07
|
|
|
if jonathan mcintosh ever went unasked to bat for me i would burn everything, salt the earth, and move to the northeastern united states to live as an amish. i would churn butter all day or some poo poo
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:07
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:agreed at least about the dev. i think the one dude is kinda of prick but as a whole they just needed a half decent PR person say their point. that being said, i am still gonna laugh at epic doubling down and making the situation worse because they want to make the perception one of "culture war" instead of buesness one and a bunch of journalists and critics being fine with that and the nazis getting involved than(though with 8chan dead maybe its less likely) I had no idea anyone was running that angle, what a disgrace.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:07
|
|
|
danbo posted:I had no idea anyone was running that angle, what a disgrace. i am not trying to say "hur dur the lefties are ruining games" or some stupid right wing bullshit. i am saying that epic is trying to change of how this who stupid kerfuffle is viewed. instead of "some people are mad a company because they hosed up a PR move and then said kinda dumber stuff about going on our platform" they instead flip it to "entitled reactioanry gamers are attacking indie devs who are just trying to make a nice non violent game". that will get people defend them easier than "PR gently caress up".
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:14
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:if jonathan mcintosh ever went unasked to bat for me i would burn everything, salt the earth, and move to the northeastern united states to live as an amish. i would churn butter all day or some poo poo hell same.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:14
|
|
|
danbo posted:It's cool when incredibly small-time developers become the battleground and punching bag in the competition between these two massive storefronts. It's obvious these folk don't have the PR resources/skills to deal with this crap so I can't ever get behind the "well THIS developer is an rear end in a top hat!" train. You sound really cool.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:23
|
|
|
danbo posted:Steam's strategy seems to be "hope our massive locked-in userbase can bully/harass developers into not going elsewhere" rather than "talk for even a drat split second about a better revenue share deal". It seems clearer that the issue isn’t about revenue sharing (Discord beat Epic to it) but about Steam not picking winners.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 21:10 |
|
|
BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:You sound really cool. Please do not personally attack me. I am a man of piece
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2019 12:38
|
|