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X-O posted:So maybe I just missed it somewhere. And perhaps it's just right there in plain sight on the image below and I'm dumb, but what do the dashed line portions ofn the timelines represent? If it was just in IX and X that'd be one thing, but the fact that it's also dotted in V when she's in a coma suggests that the dotted lines actually represent periods of time that Moira doesn't have any memory of at the moment. So she can't remember being in the coma, she lost everything from the Apocalypse War for whatever as yet unknown reason, and she doesn't know the future beyond the current issues because she hasn't lived them yet.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:30
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I’m wondering if it’ll be Sinister or the machines that will have figured out what Moira’s deal is, and found a way to make her into a Trojan Horse. This is like some fifth dimensional chess.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:37
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Open Marriage Night posted:I’m wondering if it’ll be Sinister or the machines that will have figured out what Moira’s deal is, and found a way to make her into a Trojan Horse. This is like some fifth dimensional chess.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:39
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Fritzler posted:I noticed that, but its in Moria's life 2. It's a clearly different timeline and that could be literal or not as well. Not enough to say anything. Rogue considers Mystique her mother (even though there's no biological link) - maybe in this timeline, Pyro had that sort of relationship with Mystique and Destiny instead?
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Aug 8, 2019 23:03
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FilthyImp posted:A memetic Moira who exists in alternate timelives to spread a virus or ill ideology is extremely twisted and cool. I forget if it mentions exactly when she died during the Apocalypse War, but Nimrod the lesser and his crew have already been shown to be able to get into mutants heads one way or another. Hell, the future part of Powers of X #1 could have been from a previous life since Moira alludes to those characters at the circus with Charles.
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Aug 8, 2019 23:49
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Transistor Rhythm posted:“Octopusheim” as Jay and Miles call it. It’s one of my favorite weird little nonsensical silver age things. It just pops up out of the sea one day and Magneto’s like “huh, guess I’ll make it my home.” It made as much sense as anything else from his pre-Claremont era, which was:
And that's where Magneto was when Claremont got the X-Men franchise. He's obviously a very different character now, but prior to Claremont Magneto was basically a dude who loved islands and kept stumbling into alien weird alien technology and Atlantis and the Savage Land and etc. Why wouldn't he just wash up on a weird rear end ancient island and take it over? Skwirl posted:Claremont's tenure on the X-Men was during the Bronze age. Giant Size X-Men is largely considered one of the markers on the switch from Silver to Bronze. 1970 Denny O'Neill/Neal Adams de-camp Batman The "relevant" Green Lantern/Green Arrow series starts Jack Kirby leaves Marvel for DC Mort Weisinger steps down as Superman editor, hands it off to Julius Schwartz 1971 Marvel publishes the anti-drug Spider-Man issues without the Comics Code's approval Comics Code is revised and people start scrambling to do darker/horror stories again DC tries to de-camp Superman, Kirby on Jimmy Olsen, Kanigher doing "relevant" Lois Lane stories, main Superman books get Neal Adams covers, reduces Superman's powers, Lois and Clark go to work for a TV station First appearances of Swamp Thing, Man-Thing John Stewart, Morbius, Ra's al Ghul, [Marvel's version of] Conan 1972 Stan Lee steps down as EiC and become Publisher of Marvel Comics, Roy Thomas takes over as EiC First appearances of Ghost Rider, Adam Warlock, Luke Cage, [Marvel's version of] Dracula, Jonah Hex, Kamandi 1973 The Night Gwen Stacy Died Joker goes from being wacky to being a murderer again First appearances of Thanos, Howard the Duck, Daimon Hellstrom, Shang-Chi, Killraven 1974 First appearances of Wolverine, Punisher, Foolkiller, Deathlok, OMAC, Harvey Bullock Giant Size X-Men #1 isn't until May of 1975.
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Aug 9, 2019 00:49
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I always considered my own personal choice for start of the Bronze Age to be the nearly simultaneous switch from wacky one-off bullshit stories in Batman and Superman comics to the model more closely resembling Marvel's
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Aug 9, 2019 01:21
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Stray thoughts (this is a lot, so sorry?): An undercurrent of all this seems to be the rivalry between Moira and the Brotherhood, specifically Destiny. Their scene at the end of Moira III's life is the turning point for everything Moira does afterward and Moira would certainly be within her rights to be scared of Destiny and what she knew. Going back in X-Men history, they actually have a lot of crossover. Moira X has been working and pushing Xavier all this time. The X-Men exist most certainly due to her helping sow the seeds of the dream in young Xavier's mind. The X-Men, of course, are in constant battle with the Brotherhood - a group that often contains those who might be aware of Moira's true nature: Mystique, Destiny, Pyro, Avalanche, and Blob, as seen on the cover of House of X #2. Destiny, of course, died in X-Men #255 as a member of Freedom Force. She was killed off-panel ostensibly by Legion. This death happened at the hands of Xavier's son... on Muir Island. In X-Men Forever Legion tells a time-jumping Mystique that he killed Destiny because she showed him visions of the Age of Apocalypse, but David Haller is, if anything, an unreliable narrator. Could Legion have been manipulated by Moira X to take out her enemy? Destiny actually saw her death coming and did nothing to stop it. What did she know then that would keep her leverage over Moira X? Moira's (apparently Shiar golem) doppelganger is killed in the Dream's End storyline, in X-Men #108. She dies from injuries she also curiously received off-panel: from Mystique attacking the Muir Island facility. It's not shown exactly what causes fake-Moira's death, though I think we can assume that 1) Moira X knew it was coming and 2) Mystique might have been led by Destiny to do so. Destiny would have at least trusted some semblance of what she knew with her lover. The death of Moira III happens because she develops a cure for the mutant gene, which attracts the Brotherhood. Did Moira-golem's work with the Legacy Virus make Mystique think of what Destiny might have told her: "watch out for Moira MacTaggert when it comes to genetic manipulation." Destiny is briefly revived during Necrosha. She is captured by Selene but escapes... to Muir Island. Was she there to check on Moira? There she helps the X-Men battle against Proteus, the Omega-level son of Moira X, and interacts with Blindfold, who is possibly her great granddaughter. Destiny perishes when Selene's plan is foiled, but Blindfold would later go on to be intertwined with Legion - the lines of Destiny and Xavier cross here, too. Proteus's appearance here is weird. He's revived from death as well and working for Selene. Proteus only exists in Moira X's timeline. Did she make him, an unfathomably powerful Omega mutant, on purpose? Is she still going by Apocalypse's motto? Did she purposely create "the fittest?" Destiny and the Moira golem are both seen post-death in Chaos War, where Moira-golem works with the dead X-Men and is actually possessed by Destiny's ghost into doing so. Their interaction is weird - I don't have these issues and can only pick up from summaries - but did Destiny not know this Moira was a golem? Was she trying to find out? Moira playing multi-reincarnational chess against Destiny and the Brotherhood isn't so far out of the picture. In the Apocalypse timeline of Moira IX - that is, possibly, the timeline that continues into Powers of X - the Horsemen here kind of resemble some Brotherhood members. There's one with a Mysterio-helmet and skulls on her belt and one that is obviously wielding fire (that seems to come from a hand-held device in a later panel). If Mystique and Pyro are kept as Horsemen here, is Moira keeping her enemies closer? To go further: In our timeline, Pyro is infected by the Legacy Virus sometime prior to X-Men Unlimited #2. Moira had deep knowledge of the virus - her golem's death is even due to her figuring out a "cure" to the virus. He also dies in the Dream's End event. He's physically removed from Moira, but dies near-simultaneously. Could Moira X have something to do with this? Avalanche only gets on panel of Moira III's life, but he's obviously another longtime member of the team. Though Avalanche reforms at one point and works with the X-Men, he is killed pretty dramatically in Uncanny Avengers #1. He is, of course, being mind-controlled by Red Onslaught - who had Xavier's brain. Is Xavier a co-conspirator in Moira X's plots against the Brotherhood? Blob is seen on the cover but has no appearance in this issue that I can see. However, Xavier and Moira X meet in House of X #1 at a carnival which is where Blob was working prior to his recruitment to the Brotherhood. It's a tenuous thing, but it's there. Mystique is, of course, a lot. She was probably harder to pin down for Moira X due to the nature of her powers. By the time of Krakoa, Mystique is working with Xavier. If Moira X is still around (surely she is) and behind the scenes, she might be keeping her enemies closer yet again - especially if Mystique is privy to at least some knowledge of Moira's true potential. Here's my last stray thought: in the Age of Apocalypse, Destiny enters the M'Kraan Crystal. In X-Men: Omega, AOA Destiny goes with Illyana and Bishop to reverse the timeline and stop Legion from killing Xavier. The three of them go because Illyana and Destiny no longer have a counterpart in the 616 reality. During this time, using her precognitive abilities, Destiny sees the whole of the 616 reality and that's... just kind of the end of her story. Could AOA Destiny, like X-Man, Holocaust, Sugar Man, and Dark Beast before her, have used the M'Kraan Crystal to come to the Marvel Universe proper? Hickman obviously has love for the AOA and even an alternate Destiny could be a threat to Moira X. I did this deep dive because Hickman obviously has read a ton of X-Men and has love for their history. How much of this has influenced what's coming? Sorry if this was rambling, it's not much. I guess my idea here is we might be looking at the unbridled influence of a possibly sinister (Sinister???) Moira X, who is locked in multi-lifetime battle with Destiny and the Brotherhood.
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Aug 9, 2019 01:25
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Why would Destiny and Moira X be opposed at this point?
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Aug 9, 2019 02:12
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Fangz posted:Why would Destiny and Moira X be opposed at this point? On general principle I'd at least have a poo poo ton of animosity towards the person who killed me and specifically wanted it to be as painful as possible, knowing I'd remember the pain. But unless Hickman resurrects Destiny (entirely possible) they aren't directly at odds and Xavier is working with Mystique atm and it's at least implied the Moira at least came up with part of this plan. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 02:47
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Fangz posted:Why would Destiny and Moira X be opposed at this point? Destiny says it herself in House of X #2. "I am much older than you. My powers will have manifested full of the knowledge of what we have done." This implies that the Destiny of every timeline knows what happens in the preceding timelines. "If you -- once again -- try to do this evil work against our people, like today, I will see the potential outcome of it and find you. Again. And if you try to kill me before I kill you... I will see my end coming and prevent it." Destiny threatens Moira. Then this line: "You see, Moira, we are joined together now, you and I. You will know that I am out there, waiting for this version of you. And you, knowing that you have a choice: Change or die. Help your people, or I will annihilate you in all your lives to come." Destiny X knew. She always knew. Why would she be opposed to Moira X? I don't know that whatever Moira is doing in the modern day is all that great. The last thing she did was become an heir to Apocalypse.
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Aug 9, 2019 02:51
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Little Mac posted:Destiny says it herself in House of X #2. I think she doesn't remember though, she only forsees it if it's Moira herself enacting the scheme that kills her I thought. She's not like Moira, just a precog. That's why throwing in with other powers works.
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Aug 9, 2019 03:40
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Nevvy Z posted:I think she doesn't remember though, she only forsees it if it's Moira herself enacting the scheme that kills her I thought. She's not like Moira, just a precog. That's why throwing in with other powers works. Yeah, I think this is it. She may know Moira is trying something due to her precog powers and that may come with the knowledge that Moira is living in a reincarnated life, but it doesn't mean Destiny knows what happened to herself in other timelines.
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Aug 9, 2019 04:44
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Little Mac posted:Destiny says it herself in House of X #2. Recall that Destiny can't really "see" Moira, either; she can only sense the effects Moira is having on the timeline. She will sense it if Moira is pulling her "I found a cure for the X-gene" bullshit again, not because she'll see Moira doing it, but because she'll see that cure being passed out and go "oh Moira's back on her bullshit again, let's wipe her out." Having said that, to all appearances - based on the history of Moira MacTaggart prior to HoX #2 - she is helping her people. She's done a lot of work to help mutants; hell, she did all the groundwork for the cure to the Legacy Virus, for instance, didn't she? So there was no reason for Destiny to think Moira was back on her bullshit again... and whatever her current scheme is that we're seeing unfold in HoX, it may have been set into motion years ago, but it hasn't started bearing fruit until now... when Destiny's dead.
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Aug 9, 2019 05:20
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What has Destiny ever really accomplished? The Brotherhood didn’t have the best track record.
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Aug 9, 2019 05:37
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Open Marriage Night posted:What has Destiny ever really accomplished? The Brotherhood didn’t have the best track record. It's been awhile since I read the Claremont stuff, but in general she was a pretty piss-poor precog, but Moira being invisible to her directly and Moira knowing that might explain it in retrospect.
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Aug 9, 2019 07:04
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destiny could see the effects of moira's actions in the future, and also moira publicly declared that she had found a cure for mutants. that's how and why the brotherhood found moira to begin with. also, she could apparently still perceive moira with her powers despite saying that she wasn't able to see her, but destiny's blind anyway and that's very confusing. otherwise, how could she know what moira's power was, much less the details of her future lives in other timelines? poo poo, moira herself didn't know at that point. it's clear how moira's power works, but it's completely unclear now just how destiny's works instead.
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Aug 9, 2019 08:47
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I haven't read an X book in years and I'm so glad I decided to pick this up. Edit: Nooooow I get why they said in director's cut issue #1 that it's pronounced as "Powers of Ten" CubanMissile fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 10:44
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Transistor Rhythm posted:. I am a 39 year old professional man reading this poo poo in his office because I can’t wait. Are you... me but a few months older??? Anyway, I'm a Claremont-era X-Nerd who has only passingly followed everything since the early 90s. The last regular floppy issues of ANY comics I've bought was the first few months of Fraction's not-great X-run. But Hickman on these books was too much to resist waiting for trade/Unlimited so I jumped and... Listen, what he does in HoX #2 is the single best retcon in comics history and probably the biggest idea in the X-Books since DOFP. I haven't been this excited about a stupid loving superhero book since I was like 10. Excited enough to talk about it with Goons. Barry Convex posted:I hope there's an explanation for why Moira seemingly had foreknowledge of the Genoshan genocide, Decimation, etc, at least from her fourth life, but didn't do anything to prevent them. Though based on that one text page in the first issue and the lack of acknowledgment of it in this issue, it feels like Hickman has chosen to ignore that Decimation ever happened, but we'll see This is a big thing for me. The Marvel Universe Multi-Verse basically says every timeline exists. So just because Moira dies and restarts herself, doesn't that mean that world she left is still there? She's basically making billions suffer in an attempt to get a "perfect" universe for mutants and humans. It's kinda hosed up. That said, I love in general that Hickman has finally added another voice to the Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse theories of mutant-human relations. And it's also especially cool that she is going to be significantly more knowledgeable about them. Anyway, this poo poo loving rules.
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Aug 9, 2019 15:09
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I'm right there with ya. I've read the Claremont run a few times but haven't really checked in on x books aside from brief moments over the years (Civil War, post secret, stuff like that). This is doing amazing things for kid me who grew up obsessed with xmen stuff.
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Aug 9, 2019 15:32
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I mean let's be real here the best retcon of all time was that Alfred raised Bruce Wayne instead of being hired after he was already Batman but I feel you man. This one is great too, maybe a Top 5 retcon by the time it's done.
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Aug 9, 2019 17:26
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danbanana posted:This is a big thing for me. The Marvel Universe Multi-Verse basically says every timeline exists. So just because Moira dies and restarts herself, doesn't that mean that world she left is still there? She's basically making billions suffer in an attempt to get a "perfect" universe for mutants and humans. It's kinda hosed up. That said, I love in general that Hickman has finally added another voice to the Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse theories of mutant-human relations. And it's also especially cool that she is going to be significantly more knowledgeable about them. I think you've got it wrong. The way the MCU multiverse works is that every decision, every what-if creates a new universe. So Moira unintentionally creating a new universe where sentinels wipes out everyone isn't morally worse than someone choosing a chocolate over a vanilla ice cream and that universe ending up with sentinels wiping out everyone. The difference here is that Moira's creating timelines that couldn't possibly have otherwise existed, like ones where Xavier has foreknowledge of everything. And if, as Moira seems to think, in general sentinels will arise and kill everybody, ensuring there's at least one universe in existence where that doesn't happen is a net positive.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:14
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I thought Pyro was just doing the British 'mum' thing.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:20
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Fangz posted:I think you've got it wrong. The way the MCU multiverse works is that every decision, every what-if creates a new universe. So Moira unintentionally creating a new universe where sentinels wipes out everyone isn't morally worse than someone choosing a chocolate over a vanilla ice cream and that universe ending up with sentinels wiping out everyone. The difference here is that Moira's creating timelines that couldn't possibly have otherwise existed, like ones where Xavier has foreknowledge of everything. And if, as Moira seems to think, in general sentinels will arise and kill everybody, ensuring there's at least one universe in existence where that doesn't happen is a net positive. Yeah, but... Assuming she knows how alt-realities work in the Marvel way, then purposely creating realities where she has no guarantee that her methods will work is going to cause up to 10x as much death and destruction than the one world she manages to keep peaceful. And in some cases, she's ACTIVELY choosing genocide. That's... not great! Simply: the most generally ethical thing she could have done is kill herself as a pre-teen after Destiny described how her powers work so that her death stopped creating new Hellworlds. Because there's no accounting you can do where getting it right is worth getting it wrong so many times. I guess there's also the question whether she KNOWS she's creating alternate worlds but... she HAS to have come to that conclusion, right? It'd be weird for her to think entire existences go away just because of her death. This is some Good Place-level morality that Hickman and Co. are tossing on us.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:29
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danbanana posted:Yeah, but... Well, it depends on how your comics utilitarian calculus works out, how much it counts as her fault and so on. She does have the reassurance that Destiny doesn't stop her at any point, though it depends on whether you think Destiny is a good judge of her choices or not. This why I think this more positions Moira and Destiny as co-conspirators than rivals. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 18:41
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Fangz posted:Well, it depends on how your comics utilitarian calculus works out, how much it counts as her fault and so on. She does have the reassurance that Destiny doesn't stop her at any point, though it depends on whether you think Destiny is a good judge of her choices or not. Honestly, just theories like the last one you proposed are making this the best loving series. I never even considered that...
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Aug 9, 2019 18:54
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Why is everyone using spoiler tags for something that came out days ago?
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Aug 9, 2019 19:32
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Yeah, using spoiler tags early on Wednesday is understandable but not on Friday.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:51
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I told you, I'm new here and just following protocol I saw. Anyway, the Xavier at the beginning of HoX is clearly actually Sinister. When its mentioned in PoX that there was a period of "leaderless" mutantdom, that's in reference to the last few years of the books when Xavier, Scott, Jean, and Logan were all dead. Someone (Beast? It's always loving Beast) made a deal with Sinister to start cloning. So the Jean, Logan, etc. you see in HoX are Sinister's clones. All of the Krakoa stuff is Sinister. Or at least that was my thought until the Moira Bomb hit.
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Aug 9, 2019 20:06
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I don't think it's Sinister. It fits with what we saw of Xavier the last time we saw him. He'd recently been pulled out of a long tortuous out of body struggle with the Shadow King and was stuffed into Fantomex's body. He was also acting like more of an rear end in a top hat than usual and the last time he showed up he was talking about the new dream he had.
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Aug 9, 2019 20:47
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I’m half expecting the twist to be that it’s Xavier, but the Xavier that was stuffed up into Fantomex’s body wasn’t the 616 Xavier. Maybe the Ultimate Xavier. Of course I’m also expecting the Powers of X timelines to be sourced from The Maker’s The World time dilation fuckery. So Hickman might just be faking me out at this point.
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Aug 9, 2019 21:13
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Is Xavier not an Omega level mutant? He wasn't on that list.
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Aug 9, 2019 22:14
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CubanMissile posted:Is Xavier not an Omega level mutant? He wasn't on that list. Under the new criteria he isn't, since Jean is a more powerful telepath and in a lot of depictions so is Emma.
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Aug 9, 2019 22:33
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While Xavier is no slouch in raw power I think he's always relied on technique. He's probably the best trained telepath on the planet, but that's usually a pretext for him getting Worfed by some ridiculously powerful psi.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:04
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Yeah the new definition of omega mutants means that you are only an omega if you are the best at whatever your ability is. There are many mutants with telepathy but only one can be an omega.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:07
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X-O posted:Yeah the new definition of omega mutants means that you are only an omega if you are the best at whatever your ability is. There are many mutants with telepathy but only one can be an omega. Mostly. He has both Quire and Jean as telepaths. That's the only overlap besides reality manipulation, but all the mutants listed for that are broken down by how they do (Quantum/Psionic/something else?)
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Aug 9, 2019 23:08
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Aphrodite posted:Mostly. He has both Quire and Jean as telepaths. https://io9.gizmodo.com/house-of-x-just-made-marvels-omega-level-mutants-intere-1836679454 i09's summary is how I interpreted it: it's not necessarily "the most powerful" but someone without a theoretical "upper limit." Quire and Jean both are uncapped in their telepathic power. Either Xavier isn't or, y'know, Xavier isn't actually around... In his Forge example, he specifically states that Forge's powers can theoretically be surpassed. This ties into something Hickman is more pronouncely stating than a lot of writers haven't before: in the mutant vs. human conflict, humans will only be able to compete via technology. The Sentinals are the obvious first step but they could make an AI that surpasses Forge's power. That's why Omegas are so important to mutantkind: they're the few people that humans can't replicate via technology.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:16
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I'm actually more miffed that Jean is specifically stated to have omega-class telepathy but not telekinesis, considering she's usually always had more focus on her TK.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:19
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Yeah but has Jean ever been able to use the focused totality of her telekinetic powers to make a knife?
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Aug 9, 2019 23:25
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah but has Jean ever been able to use the focused totality of her telekinetic powers to make a knife? ... while thinking and/or saying exactly that.
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Aug 9, 2019 23:28
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