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tino posted:You can't change the culture and way of life by labor/forced education camps. And the CCP know that because they had done it before in the 60s to the "Rightist". Most of the ruling CCP cadres are sons of those oppressed rightist, including Xi Jinping. Whatever they are trying to do with the vocational camp, the goal is not " changing their culture." I think the goal is closer to the Japanese American internment camp. Stop. Just stop. You don't even understand either of these scenarios. The goal of the Japanese Internment Camps was not re-education. Nor torture. It was just "Japanese are who we are fighting, so they are all traitors. Lock them up". It was also wrong and inhumane. The CCP is torturing people, forcing them to do things counter to their religion, and in many cases causing these people's death. Stop trying to insinuate otherwise. THAT is ethnic cleansing. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 02:23
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CommieGIR posted:Stop. Just stop. You don't even understand either of these scenarios. What are we arguing on an internet discussion forum or you just want to shout me down?
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Aug 9, 2019 02:23
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tino posted:What are we arguing on an internet discussion forum or you just want to shout me down? Because you are not even arguing based on fact. You are making this poo poo up as you go. Both your claims about the CCPs Concentration Camps and what they are doing are entirely false. I posted links for you to conveniently browse. And then you compared that to the Japanese Internment Camps, with no evidence to support such a claim. The only comparison is: Both are camps, and both are for holding people. But what is happening in those camps is completely different. quote:Tursun said she and other inmates were forced to take unknown medication, including pills that made them faint and a white liquid that caused bleeding in some women and loss of menstruation in others. Tursun said nine women from her cell died during her three months there. One day, Tursun recalled, she was led into a room and placed in a high chair, and her legs and arms were locked in place. "The authorities put a helmet-like thing on my head, and each time I was electrocuted, my whole body would shake violently and I would feel the pain in my veins," Tursun said in a statement read by a translator. "I don’t remember the rest. White foam came out of my mouth, and I began to lose consciousness," Tursun said. "The last word I heard them saying is that you being an Uighur is a crime." She was eventually released so that she could take her children to Egypt, but she was ordered to return to China. Once in Cairo, Tursun contacted U.S. authorities and, in September, came to the United States and settled in Virginia. No, that doesn't sound like them being force to change their culture at all now, does it. quote:Mihrigul Tursun, an Uyghur woman detained in China, after escaping one of these camps, described details of torture and beatings. Educated in Egypt, Tursun had traveled to China in 2015 to spend time with her family and was immediately detained and separated from her infant children. When Tursun was released three months later, one of the triplets had died and the other two had developed health problems. Tursun said the children had been operated on. She was arrested for a second time about two years later. Several months later, she was detained a third time and spent three months in a cramped, suffocating prison cell with 60 other women, having to sleep in turns, use the toilet in front of security cameras and sing songs praising China’s Communist Party. Neither does that. Nope, not trying to force you to abandon your culture through outright torture. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 02:25
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CommieGIR posted:Because you are not even arguing based on fact. You are making this poo poo up as you go. Both your claims about the CCPs Concentration Camps and what they are doing are entirely false. I posted links for you to conveniently browse. quote:And then you compare that to the Japanese Internment Camps, with no evidence to support such a claim. I was only speculating the the goal and purpose of the camp, it's an opinion.
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Aug 9, 2019 02:30
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tino posted:What exact I claimed was false? Before you go on, nobody has loving facts about these camp. Everything is speculation from satellite images and anecdotal stories from people who went to the camp and got released. "Don't believe that Jewish guy, its not all you've heard about those Nazi Camps" If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might be a concentration camp for forcing an entire culture to change their views through the use of torture. You have no proof to the contrary either, you are not even trying to present any evidence to counter these claims, only offering your opinion. tino posted:I was only speculating the the goal and purpose of the camp, it's an opinion. Bullshit. You are straight up discounting the experiences of people that countries sent envoys to free. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/04/05/are-historic-mosques-in-xinjiang-being-destroyed/  These guys look like they are having such a great time. Surely not being forced to listen to re-education material in a concentration camp. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 02:32
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tino posted:I m not going to tell you how to use a word, but you dont get to define a word either. Language is alive and slowly changing all the time. We all get to define words, and I will not dilute the meaning of important words to score political points. I have seen people use the UN definition of genocide to describe the immigration policy of my country. If you accept a very loose definition of genocide and that real consent is impossible under capitalism that is literally true.
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Aug 9, 2019 04:24
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definition arguing is dumb, and ccp/uigher stuff itt is extremely dumbOhFunny posted:Pakistan has also banned the viewing of Indian films. most likely in response to this, but afaik banning another country's movies in a place with hostile relations with it may be common outside the first world indian movies ~a year from now are going to be wild
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Aug 9, 2019 06:22
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I wasn't paying attention. Does the removal of special status for Kashmir and Ladakh change the election procedure and the way to elect governor? You know in Northern Ireland, if the split local parties can not reach a shared ruling government it's directly ruled by the central government. Does Kashmir has special rules like that?
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Aug 9, 2019 10:22
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Genocide is the destruction of a people. It can go through the physical elimination of these people, but the large-scale, organized destruction of their culture, language, traditions, and way of life is also genocide. By the way, it seems the people from Ladakh are happy about being separated from Jammu & Kashmir. https://www.dailyo.in/lite/politics/article-370-revoked-ladakh-ladakh-free-of-kashmir-kashmir-bifurcated/story/1/31788.html quote:There were so many things which kept the people of Ladakh away from Kashmir.
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Aug 9, 2019 10:27
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tino posted:I wasn't paying attention. Does the removal of special status for Kashmir and Ladakh change the election procedure and the way to elect governor? You know in Northern Ireland, if the split local parties can not reach a shared ruling government it's directly ruled by the central government. Does Kashmir has special rules like that? Governors in India are appointed by the President. Union territories, which both Kashmir and Ladakh now are, because of the bill, have legislatures only if the central government says they do. Kashmir will have a legislature, Ladakh won't.
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Aug 9, 2019 12:31
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Is that because Ladakh only has ~300k people and thus (to them) doesn't need a legislature?
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Aug 9, 2019 12:42
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Grouchio posted:Is that because Ladakh only has ~300k people and thus (to them) doesn't need a legislature? Even tiny tiny Luxemburg (whom only exists for historical reasons) is almost 600k so yeah...
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Aug 9, 2019 12:56
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Grouchio posted:Is that because Ladakh only has ~300k people and thus (to them) doesn't need a legislature? Maybe? But Union Territories dont usually have a legislature. The only ones that do are Puducherry and Dehli (and they also have representation in India's legislature)
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Aug 9, 2019 13:00
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Epicurius posted:Governors in India are appointed by the President. Union territories, which both Kashmir and Ladakh now are, because of the bill, have legislatures only if the central government says they do. Kashmir will have a legislature, Ladakh won't. When you say Union Territory, is it something like DC (District of Columbia) in the US? And I am trying to parse your sentence. You mean now the western part (Kashmir) may or may not have a legislature depends on Modi? Or they are promised a legislature already?
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Aug 9, 2019 13:17
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tino posted:When you say Union Territory, is it something like DC (District of Columbia) in the US? US territories are probably a closer match. Union Territories are territories administered by the Union (that is to say, the central federal state) instead of being federated states. They can have their own legislature (like Puducherry, and now J&K) or they can not have one and then depend entirely on the decisions taken by the central state. The decision that was taken was that J&K would be Union Territory with a legislature, so it will have a legislature. It's not just a promise, it's its legal status. It is also supposed to return to full statehood eventually.
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Aug 9, 2019 13:33
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tino posted:When you say Union Territory, is it something like DC (District of Columbia) in the US? And I am trying to parse your sentence. You mean now the western part (Kashmir) may or may not have a legislature depends on Modi? Or they are promised a legislature already? The bill that takes away statehood and establishes Kashmir and Ladakh as Union Territories says that Kashmir is going to have a legislature and that Ladakh won't. That cant be changed without another law passing. As for Union Territories, they aren't states, and the relationship between them and the central government is different than that between the states and the central government. In this case, though, the bill says J&K will still have a legislature which will have jurisdiction except in matters of policing or security. This is sort of a unique situation, because no state has ever lost statehood before, and no Union Territory has ever been so large or populated.
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Aug 9, 2019 13:46
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MiddleOne posted:Even tiny tiny Luxemburg (whom only exists for historical reasons) is almost 600k so yeah... I don't think population is a good argument for not having local legislative representation. The territory of Nunavut in Canada has a total population of under 40,000 and a population density of 0.02 people per square kilometre and even it has a 22 member legislative assembly. Giving people effective local representation is generally a good thing.
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Aug 9, 2019 20:19
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I can see Ladakh becoming a state if the 3 countries ever settle the border dispute in a distant future.
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Aug 9, 2019 20:27
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Cat Mattress posted:Genocide is the destruction of a people. It can go through the physical elimination of these people, but the large-scale, organized destruction of their culture, language, traditions, and way of life is also genocide. In that sense I think ethnic cleansing should focus more on the removal of a certain people from a certain space, by largely non lethal means. Like maybe even the difference between Nazi plans for Jews prior to the Eastern Front and after they had invaded Poland is the difference between Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide. They started by focusing on "Where can we remove the Jews to, to get them out of here?" before things got to the killing squads and camps and all that awfulness.
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Aug 11, 2019 00:28
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Grape posted:In that sense I think ethnic cleansing should focus more on the removal of a certain people from a certain space, by largely non lethal means. It's all part of the same process though. First it was making them leave voluntarily, then when that stopped working the sanctioned harassment started and when even that didn't work anymore it was work camps and mass murder. The end goal was always being rid of them.
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Aug 11, 2019 07:58
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Grape posted:In that sense I think ethnic cleansing should focus more on the removal of a certain people from a certain space, by largely non lethal means. Again, Ethnic Cleansing rarely, if ever, doesnt lead to genocide. They almost always go hand in hand.
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Aug 11, 2019 12:56
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MiddleOne posted:It's all part of the same process though. First it was making them leave voluntarily, then when that stopped working the sanctioned harassment started and when even that didn't work anymore it was work camps and mass murder. The mass murder really kicked into gear when they started conquering eastward and ended up with massive Jewish populations in those areas. At first it was more about ethnic cleansing, then became genocide.
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Aug 11, 2019 15:30
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CommieGIR posted:Again, Ethnic Cleansing rarely, if ever, doesnt lead to genocide. I don't think this is correct though, lots of the instances of ethnic cleansing are things coming from wars where huge population transfers occur of specific ethnic groups fleeing the violence that the other (ascendent) group is bringing with them. And stuff like forced marches of groups to hinterlands, like the Trail of Tears and those various things Stalin had done with Caucasus minorities. All of this is to say ethnic cleansing is still horrific trauma.
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Aug 11, 2019 15:34
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Grape posted:I don't think this is correct though, lots of the instances of ethnic cleansing are things coming from wars where huge population transfers occur of specific ethnic groups fleeing the violence that the other (ascendent) group is bringing with them. Except the Trail of Tears is accepted as being part of a pogrom, which in turn was genocidal. And again, its pretty rare for ethnic cleansing, even just through expulsion, to NOT have genocide as part of it. Nearly every case of "Ethnic Cleansing" that was classified of expulsion included mass executions, and the deaths along the road are counted towards to toll of Genocide. They are almost never exclusive. If a government specifically targets a group, either due to culture/religion (China, Armenia, etc.) or Skin Color/Culture (Native Americans/Africans/etc.), its incredibly unlikely any attempt is going to be made to SAFELY expel them. Almost always, the expulsion includes outright murder and mass executions. Ethnic Cleansing devalues a group of people over another, and there's little to stop mass murder from happening. After all, they are lesser, they are not wanted, why let them live. Regardless of how Ethnic Cleansing starts, it always results in Genocide eventually. The idea that expulsion, and the certain deaths to follow, should not count as genocide is laughable. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 15:56
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CommieGIR posted:Regardless of how Ethnic Cleansing starts, it always results in Genocide eventually. The idea that expulsion, and the certain deaths to follow, should not count as genocide is laughable. Why is certain death assured following expulsion though? Like on a death march into the Syrian desert like in the Armenian genocide yeah, but for lots of cases there's no certain death. But yes I agree that ethnic cleansing almost always involves death, in fact part of making a population flee and leave X Area is going to be the threat of death if they stay, implied or otherwise. But lots of the time it's "scare away the untermensch over the border and let those fuckers on the other side deal with them, we get all this sweet real estate for our tribe now!". Grape fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 16:48
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Grape posted:Why is certain death assured following expulsion though? Like on a death march into the Syrian desert like in the Armenian genocide yeah, but for lots of cases there's no certain death. No, its pretty certain. People forced from their homes rarely have food, clothing, and necessities to make the trip. It is, for the most part, a death march. That's what Ethnic Cleansing is. Get rid of them. We don't want them. Let them starve. Let them die. At the end of the day: This is just nitpicking to argue this, Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide have the same goals, but usually converge in the end.
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Aug 11, 2019 16:51
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CommieGIR posted:No, its pretty certain. People forced from their homes rarely have food, clothing, and necessities to make the trip. It is, for the most part, a death march. That's what Ethnic Cleansing is. Get rid of them. We don't want them. Let them starve. Let them die. But in lots of cases (though yeah some are like you describe for sure) the refugees are fleeing into populated places where they'll survive albeit with great hardship (and great strain on the new host countries/rump states). With this being pretty apparent to all sides. Like Palestinians fleeing into Jordan after the initial conflicts with Israel, Eastern European Germans fleeing into Germany at the end of WW2, Greek Cypriots fleeing to the south of the island after the Turkish invasion in 74 etc. And you even have stuff like the technically legally agreed upon population transfer between Greece and Turkey after WW1, which in spite of it's official agreement nature doesn't absolve it being ethnic cleansing by both sides in my eyes.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:01
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CommieGIR posted:At the end of the day: This is just nitpicking to argue this, Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide have the same goals, but usually converge in the end. Ethnic cleansing and the implied survival of the removed populations brings with it some major international legal messes, the whole right of return factor for instance, and how to deal with property that was fled from and reappropriated. And even the matter of repopulation/reintegration of cleansed groups back into the old space if things advance to that level. Ethnic cleansing perhaps ends up with more discussion on damage done to the living than the dead as genocide brings with it. More to do with refugee issues. I don't think it's nitpicking.  But I'll stop here because this really isn't the topic..... and hopefully it stays that way.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:06
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“Certain death” can also mean “we are certain that some of these people will die” not “death is certain for all refugees.” Both the “deaths happen, don’t care” and the “deaths better happen because we specifically care about causing death” sorts can be part of a genocide.
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Aug 11, 2019 17:09
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Hot take: ethnic cleansing is historically the least worst outcome of losing an all-out war against your neighbours.
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Aug 11, 2019 19:34
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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To go back on topic: an Indian article on the political scaffolding that made the revocation of Article 370 possible. https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/the-inside-story-of-what-happened-behind-the-scenes-that-to-the-revocation-of-article-370/
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Aug 11, 2019 22:24
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Are they also revoking the ban on settlement of Indians in J&K? If yes, holy gently caress we are going to diee
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Aug 11, 2019 22:26
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Dante80 posted:Are they also revoking the ban on settlement of Indians in J&K? Is the ban a separate law? From what I heard, it was implied that ban was included in 370, though this may be untrue.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:29
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Dante80 posted:Are they also revoking the ban on settlement of Indians in J&K? From what I read it means that they can move there now. Lots of talk about rich people buying property because it's a beautiful mountain area.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:31
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Dante80 posted:Are they also revoking the ban on settlement of Indians in J&K?
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Aug 11, 2019 22:32
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Grouchio posted:Do you live in the area? No, but radiation knows no bounds?
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Aug 11, 2019 22:39
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Count Roland posted:Is the ban a separate law? From what I heard, it was implied that ban was included in 370, though this may be untrue. It was another article, I think 35a.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:41
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Dante80 posted:No, but radiation knows no bounds? I mean realistically unless they use hundreds of nukes it won't be much of an issue. Over 1000 nukes were tested above ground and we don't seem worse for wear.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:42
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I also don't expect anything other than conventional warfare in Kashmir out of this.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:45
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Hamelekim posted:I mean realistically unless they use hundreds of nukes it won't be much of an issue. Over 1000 nukes were tested above ground and we don't seem worse for wear. Hundreds is what they have.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:49
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