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https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/1160179545691033600 Increadible
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Aug 10, 2019 15:08
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bump_fn posted:lmao wtf is number 11 Chancellor of the Exchequer's place. Minister for the Poonds. Ed: beaten by several others.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:08
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Spend it all then tank the economy and everyone with it. That’s the conservative pledge.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:08
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11 is the chancellor, they live next to the prime minister. Peculiarly, the first lord of the treasury is actually the prime minister's title, the office actually in charge of the treasury is the chancellor of the exchequer.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:09
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forkboy84 posted:Except Boris is living in number 11 because it's bigger and he's a selfish prick) lmfao that owns
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Aug 10, 2019 15:19
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ThomasPaine posted:I need one of you good people to explain to me in very simple terms - as if to a baby - what exactly Chris Williamson did wrong. So many otherwise on point people are piling on him but looking at the actual stuff he's said I'm really not getting it. At worst he can be accused of bad optics + poor communication, but eh. lmao good luck with getting that
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Aug 10, 2019 15:19
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Z the IVth posted:If the Epstein thing ever gets close to convicting Prince Andrew he's going to mysteriously end up in the middle of a 6 vehicle pile up in the wilds of Norfolk. Yes you were saying
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Aug 10, 2019 15:20
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Gee I'm really surprised Epstein killed himself by three shots to the head while asleep, definitely didn't see this one coming I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of it though
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Aug 10, 2019 15:24
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He stabbed himself 17 times in the back and got run over by his own car twice. e:  e2: I refreshed the page and Rodri has been subbed out 
moostaffa fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 15:25
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Diet Crack posted:Spend it all then tank the economy and everyone with it. That’s the conservative pledge. Yeah when I saw who was getting what positions it was obvious that Boris has a pro-austerity, pro-Brexit cabinet with the latter being the uniting force but if everyone actually wants the former as well then he's actually got a serious conflict built in. I'd guess his plan is to just get through Brexit and reshuffle (maybe after an election) but that just means there's a starker conflict of interest between a pro-austerity Chancellor, who might well be out on his arse one way or another, being required to spend billions. If any decent news journalist can start pressing them on the money even a little it'll start unravelling immediately.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:27
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If you're suiciding by gun suspiciously it's when your hands are handcuffed behind you https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-news-handcuffed-woman-suicide-20190317-story.html
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Aug 10, 2019 15:28
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namesake posted:any decent news journalist I hate to break it to you.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:29
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If this was the first time for Epstein I'd have said it's a conspiracy theory, but what with him I wonder if protecting Andrew and the reputation of the royal family falls under national security concerns? Just asking questions mind you.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:31
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I honestly think Prince Andrew is pretty far down the list of people likely to have had Jeffrey Epstein killed, considering that one of them is President of the USA and he was in US federal custody.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:33
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ThomasPaine posted:This is actually a really good point, and I think is a major issue in the UK in particular. There's class in the Marxist sense, and there's class in the traditional British class system sense, and they're kind of related but also at the same time completely different. This leads to a lot of crossed wires. Just a shame to see good people twist themselves in knots as a result. We really need to be better at separating them conceptually. You can offset a lot (but not all) of being African or a woman or gay or trans by being really loving rich. Mo Ibrahim might still suffer from some of the social effects of racism and Islamophobia, but he's never going to have the person at the Jobcentre Plus assume he's a lazy pothead on the scrounge on account of his race. He's in the minority though, as Rarity previously said one of the reasons why BAME and LGBT and disability issues are class issues is the overrepresentation of those people on the economic lower rungs.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:34
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The question is did one of the prison guards do it theirselves, or just deliver a suitable means to him and walk away?
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Aug 10, 2019 15:40
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Welcome to the forum. I've been here just over a year. It's a good place. Catching up too. Oddly enough yesterday's events stole pretty much every spoon in the cutlery drawer. But if I don't bring things up to date now I never shall (and will probably never even post again) SO. Couple of mistakes in the OP: I don't know for sure it was a transphobic attack, as I couldn't decipher any of the words he yelled at me. (But FWIW my empirical experience -- sample size 1 -- this sort of thing happens WAY more when I have my hair an outrageous colour than its normal mouse, and I dyed it purple at the weekend) I wasn't walking down the street, I was unloading beer from my van (standing in between the open back doors, so good luck to any CCTV cameras trying to see the incident) Right, so then, after my post yesterday the therapist rang me up and tried to tell me I had "misinterpreted" her. And honestly I don't know what to think or believe. My thought processes go something along these lines: On the one hand, I do know that when I am badly depressed, I am prone to flying to conclusions and putting the worst possible interpretation on everything. On the other hand, I don't see quite how I could read her words any other way. On the other other hand, I have been gaslighted by people who could gaslight for England (I had this one ex, who's been dead for twenty years but whose spectral hands I still feel all over my life) and I may be hypersensititve in this regard. On the other other other hand, I am generally an easy going and forgiving type, but I have (at least) one hard barrier, and I'm hosed if anyone is ever going to gaslight me again. On the other other other other hand, I second guess myself too much. On the other other other other other hand, or maybe too little. On the other other other other other other hand, I also steal jokes from Bill Bailey. I am getting a referral to the urgent mental health team. This doesn't mean I'm about to be sectioned, right? Right? (She told me to stay by my phone because they would ring me up before 5pm, but to my secret relief they didn't. This means I can't hear from them till Monday, and since I'm about to bugger off to Dublin for the worldcon that will give me more time still to get over all this bullshit.) Thanks to all who have commented, welcomed me, made helpful suggestions and not turned me into a shitpost meme.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:50
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If it is not going to be today, I think we are due a "one in a hundred/thousand year event" here in Carlisle, some time soon. The last one was, what? 4 year ago? At least the EA were so confident of no flooding this time they didn't bother shutting the gates on those expensive flood defenses they installed.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:51
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Nothingtoseehere posted:The question is did one of the prison guards do it theirselves, or just deliver a suitable means to him and walk away? They watched to make sure he actually did it
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Aug 10, 2019 15:51
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Is it Prince Andrew where the victim talked about a birthmark?
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Aug 10, 2019 15:52
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I mean in my completely unfounded and uninformed opinion you're probably entirely right and therapist is probably a lying oik. I'm not sure exactly what you could say to someone that would be misinterpretable as suggesting they're lying, that's kind of a binary thing.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:56
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thespaceinvader posted:I honestly think Prince Andrew is pretty far down the list of people likely to have had Jeffrey Epstein killed, considering that one of them is President of the USA and he was in US federal custody. Another guy who was heavily implicated was Ehud Barak, former prime minister of Israel and one of the two most decorated soldiers in the history of the IDF. Now, I'm not saying that he went Sam Fisher on the Metropolitan.Correctional Centre and personally snapped Epstein's neck in order to keep his kid-diddling secrets from getting out, but I'm not saying he didn't, either.
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Aug 10, 2019 15:59
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1160060754982313984 I know there would be a myriad of debate on the correct term to use, but the use of 'young woman' irritates me. Replace it with '17-year old'
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Aug 10, 2019 15:59
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Klepsie posted:Catching up too. Oddly enough yesterday's events stole pretty much every spoon in the cutlery drawer. But if I don't bring things up to date now I never shall (and will probably never even post again) SO. Thanks for sharing. I do understand your 'gaslight' attitude, I have an overdeveloped 'control freak' detector for similar reasons. Worldcon? Were you at Ytterbium per chance? I did think about Dublin but am rather skint at the moment.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:01
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OwlFancier posted:I mean in my completely unfounded and uninformed opinion you're probably entirely right and therapist is probably a lying oik. I'm not sure exactly what you could say to someone that would be misinterpretable as suggesting they're lying, that's kind of a binary thing. That is the opinion of most of my buddies over on FB. As I say I really don't know what to believe. The trouble is that after a few hours of it all going round and round in your head, I no longer even trust myself to remember what my initial instinct was. As Camrath says I have a lifetime of mistreatment and abuse from the mental health system. It took me literally nearly a year to get this therapist because I got lost in the system somehow (again). I only did that because Cam nagged me and because I managed to exorcise some of the demons from being locked up in a loony bin at age 14 by writing it up into a novel (omitting some of the more extreme incidents I experienced because they were too vile and bizarre even for fiction). And now this. Sigh. I don't want to turn this into a cry for help (go not to internet forums for support, for they will say both no and yes and omg you gay fag this is so faek) but I do appreciate all the kind words.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:06
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Darth Walrus posted:Another guy who was heavily implicated was Ehud Barak, former prime minister of Israel and one of the two most decorated soldiers in the history of the IDF. Now, I'm not saying that he went Sam Fisher on the Metropolitan.Correctional Centre and personally snapped Epstein's neck in order to keep his kid-diddling secrets from getting out, but I'm not saying he didn't, either. TBH this is making me think of some Orient Express situation where all the corrupt fucks queue up to stab Epstein in the back.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:07
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Thanks for sharing. Yes. I stopped going to Eastercons years ago because they were too big and scary, but I decided I ought to try again now I'm about to be published. Whereupon I got food poisoning off the hotel burgers and spent a decent proportion of the con in bed...
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Aug 10, 2019 16:09
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If cries for help were banned this thread would get like half the posts it does. I think most of the thread is on some sort of brain drug so you're in quite good company  I know what you mean with the doubting, it is like that yeah, the longer you think the less real it seems. I don't think I've had anyone intentionally gaslight me but I do have experience with people who are... shall we say unable to comprehend that the things they say might not be correct, with the implicit assumption that their recollection, not yours, is the one that takes precedence. My mother does that a lot and it interacts, as you can imagine, wonderfully with my nan who has increasingly advanced dementia. I would say trust your friends, it is good to have a bias in your own favour especially when it comes from other people, and doubly especially if you struggle to keep one up yourself.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:10
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Not So Fast posted:TBH this is making me think of some Orient Express situation where all the corrupt fucks queue up to stab Epstein in the back. https://twitter.com/morninggloria/status/1160201528134647808?s=19
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Aug 10, 2019 16:13
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https://twitter.com/sunraysunray/status/1160202191472386049?s=19 Bluetick twitter springing into action.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:14
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What a shock. https://twitter.com/MichaelCoudrey/status/1160199691373621250
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Aug 10, 2019 16:15
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Bold assertion that jeffrey epstein is/was people.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:15
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Wait gently caress they worked?
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Aug 10, 2019 16:16
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Nightshift needs something to wank off to.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:17
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I wouldn't believe a word that guy says btw
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Aug 10, 2019 16:17
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This guy is or works for the gateway pundit and is a huge liar
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Aug 10, 2019 16:19
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Re: Islington North - if Jeremy wasn't the MP, it would absolutely be part of an ideal place to build a Green base in London. In the alternate universe where Michael O'Halloran quietly hands over to some other non-entity who then hands over to a Blairite like Emily Thornberry (as was) or Barbara Roche, the constituency surely follows exactly the same path as Islington South, and Hornsey & Wood Green, in swinging wildly from being a nondescript safe red seat to a bitterly-fought-over red-yellow marginal in the wake of the Iraq war, and then flips back red as the Liberal vote disappears after 2010. It's only stayed safe through the Blair years because of Jeremy's own personal vote. Then you want to consider the two local councils, which are the first step in mounting an eventual parliamentary challenge. Both councils have been Tory-free for a generation, so you're not going to get stymied by vote-splitting concerns. In Islington you then have a completely free run; the council in this universe consists of 47 Labour councillors and one very lonely Green from Highbury East. That's now a genuinely red-green marginal ward, in which the yellows could guarantee Green victory by standing down. There's also half a dozen other very leafy wards rammed full of muesli-eating carbon-conscious health-food-shopping Guardian readers who I think would have actually made the plunge and gone Green by now, but for Jeremy's renewal of Labour. That would be a solid platform from which to rail against the (hypothetical) nonentity Labour MPs from the left, and try to pick them off with an energised base. (They're all in Islington South, but without Jeremy in Islington North it'd soon start to spill over.) The situation in Haringey is a bit more complicated - there's a huge east-west split in the borough running right down the railway line, with Tottenham and adjacent areas to the east, and more muesli country like Highgate and Muswell Hill to the west. The west is still yellow, the east is firmly red, and there's a lot more east than west. The Jeremy factor is somewhat reduced here in favour of the Bernie Grant factor: Tottenham wants a local socialist black Labour MP and David Lammy will carry a personal vote here for the next twenty years if he wants it, which will always overspill into council elections to a degree; although the waves of gentrifiers are now steadily marching up the Seven Sisters Road and into the new-builds on the old industrial land around the Hale and Blackhorse Road. Complicating matters further in Haringey is the Haringey Development Vehicle (anyone remember the sturm und drang over that?) It's not too hard to imagine an alternate universe where Labour doesn't get renewed and Lammy wins selection for Mayor of London, there's no major force within Labour to oppose the HDV (which begins pushing out the black vote), nobody trusts the Liberals in the east, and the Liberal heartland in the west is very vulnerable to a health food offensive; and if the Greens get their act together in the right way they'd be looking at a potential four-seat power base in London.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:26
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Guavanaut posted:Also class in the economic sense isn't an identity but it is a lens through which all identities are multiplied. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. My issue is with this trend I'm noticing where people seem to lump class in with other identity-based groups as if they are equivalents, then argue that calls to return to class analysis implicitly represent the abandonment of LGBT+, ethnic minorities etc because class is now no more or less important or relevant than any other category, and more to the point is seperate from them. This hollowing out of class into an 'identity' is exactly what allows extremely wealthy business owners to declare themselves working class because they have an accent, like a pint, and watch the football, while many people I know are dismissed as out of touch middle class elitists despite being dirt-poor because they're relatively articulate and work in education, and it sets a really troubling precedent. While crude class reductionists who think gender/race/etc etc are irrelevant distractions do exist, there's often a bit too much enthusiasm to condemn people for this when they're not actually suggesting anything of the sort. A lot of people for example would read CW's 'we need to return to class analysis and away from idpol' as almost proto-fascist 'gently caress the minorities', but if you're more charitable it could easily mean 'we need to privilege class analysis as a methodology, rather than acquiesce to a fundamentally superficial, liberal understanding of oppression that will only lead to rainbow capitalism'. He's not great at communicating this point, which is bad in an elected official I agree, and that's an issue, but it's unpleasant to watch a lot of very well intentioned left-wing people attack him based on an implicit premise that ultimately undermines their own political goals. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 16:29
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ThomasPaine posted:I need one of you good people to explain to me in very simple terms - as if to a baby - what exactly Chris Williamson did wrong. So many otherwise on point people are piling on him but looking at the actual stuff he's said I'm really not getting it. At worst he can be accused of bad optics + poor communication, but eh. assuming you are looking for an earnest answer... There's two angles here. One is the actually-existing UK experience, particularly in reference to how New Labour actually related to the actually-existing Labour left and Labour BAME groups - e.g., the struggle for mandatory representation (i.e., the black sections). The other is the intersectionality theory. Although the concept of black sections erupted out of far-left UK black nationalism, by the late 1980s it was becoming associated on the left with careerist middle-class black concerns far removed from those of the Real (black) Working Class. And conversely on the Labour right it was identified, correctly, that it was potentially a vehicle for professional middle-class black concerns, much as the Labour right identified many vehicles for other professional middle-class concerns... Unless one has an exceptionally short memory, hence, one can recall that when the black sections were potentially on the edge of being realized, the Labour left organized in fury against it on the pragmatic basis that it was transparently a vehicle of the right, and on the ideological basis that it was a middle-class concern that would not do anything about Real Racism (this being in the wake of Brixton...). And so mandatory representation would only be realized by way of the Labour right, and very much despite the Labour left. It's one thing to say: issues of identity must be seen in the context of class relationships. But what does that mean in practice? Minority communities have their own political dynamics, and whilst a consciousness aligned along class unity can seek to shape them along class lines, it will tend to be the case that not all minority communities will walk to exactly the same drumbeat. And if the contention is that the national class dialectic should take precedence, well the UK is overwhelmingly white-dominated, so that is tantamount to a demand that minority leaders and leadership should always be kowtowing to whoever commands the white majority as a matter of demographic reality. This has practical implications. Black MPs can be New Labourites too (e.g. Paul Boateng). Popular MPs and NGOs can be on the party right (e.g. Jack Straw, certainly one with few fans on the left, maintained close ties to Operation Black Vote). Black communities can interpret anti-fascist politics relatively narrowly (i.e., that critical question over which ARA split from the ANL - whether or not black leadership and black community approval should be held as prerequisites, vs whether it should be turned to a wider struggle of a unified working class against capitalism proper, even if that inevitably meant a whiter struggle against capitalism). When one is slamming New Labour's commitment to idpol, well, what was it that New Labour did that was obviously idpol but not classpol? e.g. New Labour set up the Race Relations Forum, for instance, which was as literal an incarnation of the left's criticism of a non-working-class ethnic minority representation as can possibly exist (it was a group of black and Asian professional community leaders and activists - its greatest practical effect was giving the most influential activists for an inquiry into the mishandling of the murder of Stephen Lawrence some direct participation in it, and its lasting legacy is the establishment acceptance that the Met was indeed institutionally racist. It was a very elite group. The brother-in-law of one of them would go on to be Mayor of London. On one hand, that's obviously troubling in class terms. On the other, it did give activists a concrete voice and achievement, as opposed to perpetually waiting for white leftists to achieve their revolution on white terms. On the theory side - many intersectional theorists explicitly deny that class has a unique importance or conceptual salience to understanding oppression. They may also deny that class struggle is the source of other oppressions, or that other oppressions would necessarily end with the elimination of class (despite rejecting both the Marxist start of history and the Marxist end of history, these theorists might also still call themselves Marxists; such a practice has a long pedigree going all the way back to the dual-system feminists). To give a flavour of itL quote:While many scholars conceptualize class as the major axis of social stratification, such an analysis incorrectly assumes that race and gender are somehow secondary or peripheral systems of inequality. Instead, race/class/gender scholars see race, class, and gender as equally primary in shaping social, economic, and political relations. No one is derived from the other; all are equally central in the formation of society (Glenn, 2002). The Nexus of Race and Gender: Parallels, Linkages, and Divergences in Race and Gender Studies (Andersen 2010) as published in The SAGE Handbook of Race and Ethnic Studies, edited by PH Collins and J Solomos. Citing EN Glenn's Unequal Freedom but not any particular part. So it is not necessarily a misunderstanding of socialist theory - it may be a rejection of it - although as noted some of these authors do call themselves socialists and/or Marxists nonetheless (and would deny that there is any tension between idpol/classpol)
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Aug 10, 2019 16:43
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A Ronyapost I actually understood most of! I mean I'm not going to deny that I'm essentially a Marxist, both politically and academically, so this will obviously put me at odds with certain other traditions. I don't mind this when there's an explicit acknowledgement on both sides that we're approaching an issue from a fundamentally different angle. I think the big thing I get frustrated at today is the constant bad faith and refusal to discuss issues in good faith even between traditions that have similar general end goals if wildly different analyses (the marxism/intersectionality example is a good example of this). But I suppose the left has a long tradition of eating itself. There seems to be a general refusal amongst many self-declared leftists to actually acknowledge these different strains of thought, preferring to view the whole movement as a homogenous mass from which those who diverge must be purged - and who as a result must obviously be crypto-fascists or capitalist wreckers anyway. It's a really toxic environment. And I think this is also relevant: ronya posted:So it is not necessarily a misunderstanding of socialist theory - it may be a rejection of it - although as noted some of these authors do call themselves socialists and/or Marxists nonetheless (and would deny that there is any tension between idpol/classpol) By claiming the heritage of a philosophical tradition their actual ideas directly contradict, all of these issues are amplified. I've seen plenty of self-declared Marxists argue make frankly bizarre arguments that are barely even recognisably Marxist - TERFy second wave feminists are particularly bad for this in my experience. It just gets very messy and hostile, and lowers the quality of the discourse for everyone.
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Aug 10, 2019 17:02
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