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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:a deliberate program of mass starvation as punishment for not supporting a coup don't leak the PSUV's campaign slogan
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Aug 12, 2019 00:05
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Volkerball posted:I was in the infantry during the surge op. You've seen war from one side. You didn't see it from the side of the Kurds in Iraq, who were protected from a second Anfal campaign for a decade through a no fly zone, which ended with Saddam hanging at the end of a rope on a day that is still an unofficial Kurdish holiday. You didn't see it from the perspective of Arabs in Iraq who were subject to unaccounted violence from US forces that unjustly targeted them, to the extent that they were willing to support loving AQI and bloodthirsty Shia militias in Iraq because they were so desperate. You don't know what it is to be under a boot, you've only worn it. And yet you sit there and judge people who are under one themselves, because you haven't experienced anything like what they experienced, and you refuse to acknowledge or listen to them. I don't give a gently caress about what Guiado, Bolton, or you have to say about what is going on there. I want to know what the protesters are saying. What the streets want, what they feel, and why. And that's the only information that will factor into determining what I want to see in Venezuela. In lieu of that, I'm not going to make poo poo up to serve my own ends, because I don't have any beyond human rights and dignity for Venezuelan people who as of right now, are being oppressed by a shithole government that refuses to cede power. Those are the people who need to be at the center of this discussion, not the US. Maybe if people had a coherent counter-strategy to the John Boltons of the world that wasn't rooted in some cold war era chessboard nonsense that sees those trapped in the middle as pawns on a board rather than people entitled to self-determination, those types of neocons would become obsolete. But as it stands, they're the only people offering solutions, albeit ridiculously lovely ones. If the "anti-imperialist" left ever offered anything other than the status quo, maybe they wouldn't lose the debate so goddamned always. the streets spoke, Volkerball. A man went before them and said "I am your salvation from the monster oppressing you. Go, and die for me, and you will be freed." the streets responded. and now, he is arguing with Colombian and American authorities about who should be paying the hotel bills for the +/-500 people who were willing to sign on, and gleefully endorsing an American blockade of any food from entering the country he planned to be the savior of. it turns out the streets don't like the people whose idea of saving them involves murdering them with sledgehammers for complaining about starving. damnedest thing.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:08
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Volkerball posted:I was in the infantry during the surge op. You've seen war from one side. You didn't see it from the side of the Kurds in Iraq, who were protected from a second Anfal campaign for a decade through a no fly zone, which ended with Saddam hanging at the end of a rope on a day that is still an unofficial Kurdish holiday. You didn't see it from the perspective of Arabs in Iraq who were subject to unaccounted violence from US forces that unjustly targeted them, to the extent that they were willing to support loving AQI and bloodthirsty Shia militias in Iraq because they were so desperate. You don't know what it is to be under a boot, you've only worn it. And yet you sit there and judge people who are under one themselves, because you haven't experienced anything like what they experienced, and you refuse to acknowledge or listen to them. I don't give a gently caress about what Guiado, Bolton, or you have to say about what is going on there. I want to know what the protesters are saying. What the streets want, what they feel, and why. And that's the only information that will factor into determining what I want to see in Venezuela. In lieu of that, I'm not going to make poo poo up to serve my own ends, because I don't have any beyond human rights and dignity for Venezuelan people who as of right now, are being oppressed by a shithole government that refuses to cede power. Those are the people who need to be at the center of this discussion, not the US. Maybe if people had a coherent counter-strategy to the John Boltons of the world that wasn't rooted in some cold war era chessboard nonsense that sees those trapped in the middle as pawns on a board rather than people entitled to self-determination, those types of neocons would become obsolete. But as it stands, they're the only people offering solutions, albeit ridiculously lovely ones. If the "anti-imperialist" left ever offered anything other than the status quo, maybe they wouldn't lose the debate so goddamned always. I'm glad our generation has our version of 'I WAS IN THE poo poo, SO THAT'S WHY I'M QUALIFIED TO SAY IMPERIALISM RULES'
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Aug 12, 2019 00:10
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536 posted:If the elections weren't fraudulent, how does a leader with 21% approval rating get 68% of the vote? turnout was much lower than usual (46%) due to some of the opposition parties boycotting the election. 68% of the vote was only 31% of the eligable voters in venezuela.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:13
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M. Discordia posted:don't leak the PSUV's campaign slogan I mean, if they're not campaigning on your gleeful cheering their starvation and murder at the hands of right wing death squads, they're really missing a beat. do you wonder why it was, exactly, that your boy ended up playing Xbox in Colombia and waiting for his masters to tell him what to do next? surely, the Venezuelan people were as hungry for sledgehammer murder of the Ideologically Suspect as you, right?
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Aug 12, 2019 00:17
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:"why you gotta make me hit you," but for a deliberate program of mass starvation as punishment for not supporting a coup I do not think highlighting the way Maduro punished opposition supporters over past 5 year, is good for your argument.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:21
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:I mean, if they're not campaigning on your gleeful cheering their starvation and murder at the hands of right wing death squads, they're really missing a beat. I would say the death squads in Venezuela are left-wing being that they are controlled by Nicholas Maduro, head of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:27
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GoluboiOgon posted:turnout was much lower than usual (46%) due to some of the opposition parties boycotting the election. 68% of the vote was only 31% of the eligable voters in venezuela. Even including the fact that half the country didn't want to show up for a sham election, maduro's support when from 21% to atleast 31%. He increased his electability by 50% overnight? It was a sham election.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:44
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536 posted:Even including the fact that half the country didn't want to show up for a sham election, maduro's support when from 21% to atleast 31%. He increased his electability by 50% overnight? It was a sham election. do you think that's how those numbers work e: no really, to be clear are you saying you think unless he lost by exactly 21 to 31 percent it's fraud because approval numbers in a poll = vote results no matter how many show up and what demographics and all?
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Aug 12, 2019 01:04
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More because of the documented 20-year history of purging opposition party members from the voter rolls, excluding people who sign ballot petitions for opposing candidates from employment and government programs, sending paramilitaries to physically attack opposition voters at polling stations, rigging the voting machine software, imprisoning opposition candidates who are projected to win, nullifying election results that the PSUV doesn't like, and using death squads to kill thousands of anti-PSUV activists. Anyone who knows the first thing about the modern history of Venezuela is aware that the elections are not free. I wonder what that makes you.
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Aug 12, 2019 01:25
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sexpig by night posted:do you think that's how those numbers work You aren't getting my point. It obviously wasn't a fair election or representative of Venezuela as a whole because of what happened with the opposition being banned. Maduro doesn't have overwhelming support in his country like a few people are claiming on here. He isn't a 40-60% approval guy. He is a 20% guy. Thats why you had millions of people protesting for months. I am not going to accept this weirdo revisionist history that the massive protests of 2018 and 2019 didn't happen and the bullshit lie that most Venezuelan people support Maduro. They don't. The OVERWHELMING majority of the country is anti-maduro.
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Aug 12, 2019 01:35
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M. Discordia posted:I would say the death squads in Venezuela are left-wing being that they are controlled by Nicholas Maduro, head of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela. and you have been quite clear that your sole objection to the concept is the political alignment of the killers. My Death Squads Will Have Slightly Different Criteria does not appear to be getting people in the streets. weird.
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Aug 12, 2019 01:42
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:I do not think highlighting the way Maduro punished opposition supporters over past 5 year, is good for your argument. if only Trump, Bolton, Pompeo, or Abrams could have found the strength to say "no, actually, we will not turn away ships bringing food into your country" it's a shame that before the peerless force of the tyrant's personality bearing down on them, they could only meekly assent to his demand the US rip food from his people's mouths.
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Aug 12, 2019 01:47
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Volkerball posted:I was in the infantry during the surge op. Ah ok, sorry I called you a chickenhawk then, my bad. I obviously confused you with someone else. Just wanted to get that out of the way before I laugh my rear end off Volkerball posted:You've seen war from one side. You didn't see it from the side of the Kurds in Iraq, who were protected from a second Anfal campaign for a decade through a no fly zone, which ended with Saddam hanging at the end of a rope on a day that is still an unofficial Kurdish holiday. You didn't see it from the perspective of Arabs in Iraq who were subject to unaccounted violence from US forces that unjustly targeted them, to the extent that they were willing to support loving AQI and bloodthirsty Shia militias in Iraq because they were so desperate. You don't know what it is to be under a boot, you've only worn it. And yet you sit there and judge people who are under one themselves, because you haven't experienced anything like what they experienced, and you refuse to acknowledge or listen to them. I don't give a gently caress about what Guiado, Bolton, or you have to say about what is going on there. I want to know what the protesters are saying. What the streets want, what they feel, and why. And that's the only information that will factor into determining what I want to see in Venezuela. In lieu of that, I'm not going to make poo poo up to serve my own ends, because I don't have any beyond human rights and dignity for Venezuelan people who as of right now, are being oppressed by a shithole government that refuses to cede power. Those are the people who need to be at the center of this discussion, not the US. Maybe if people had a coherent counter-strategy to the John Boltons of the world that wasn't rooted in some cold war era chessboard nonsense that sees those trapped in the middle as pawns on a board rather than people entitled to self-determination, those types of neocons would become obsolete. But as it stands, they're the only people offering solutions, albeit ridiculously lovely ones. If the "anti-imperialist" left ever offered anything other than the status quo, maybe they wouldn't lose the debate so goddamned always. Wahahahahahahahaha, this is just  "'You don't care about the ordinary people caught in the middle,' I say as I justify a war that killed 500,000+ Iraqi civilians, and present it as a model of a good outcome that should be replicated in Venezuela by the same mass murdering psychopathic neocons" "You're obsessed with Bolton and Guaido! They have nothing to do with the opposition, I don't even like them! The opposition is bigger than them listen to other voices!" "Sounds good, other voices such as...?" "...Bolton and the neocons are the only one offering real solutions, and it's all your fault that I'm supporting them!" Dude, you're not M Discordia, you haven't fantasized about rounding up PSUV supporters en mass and killing them all, take a step back and look at the bodycounts of the interventions you support.
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Aug 12, 2019 04:09
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VitalSigns posted:Lmao come on dude you live comfortably in new Zealand or somewhere and you constantly argue for wars all over the world as a philosophical exercise because you don't suffer any of the consequences of foreign adventurism. Pots, kettles, etc. I've seen war, it sucks, you're just a chickenhawk. at the moment the most prominent not-Guaido figure adjacent to the negotiations (as filtered through a cursory reading of Venezuelablog, not going into their new paper yet, but they've been following the negotiation side of things in the past more closely than any other english language source i've seen by far) is a lady who, uh, is on the wrong end of intervention policy compared to Guaido Maria Machado, if you haven't heard her name in #HandsOffVenezuela circles I guarantee you will shortly otoh the people Guaido actually sent to the negotiation are allegedly not nutters I wonder what Andres Velasquez is up to, apparently he wound up not getting prosecuted yet over the failed revolt this year
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Aug 12, 2019 06:45
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and you have been quite clear that your sole objection to the concept is the political alignment of the killers. The entire loving problem with this thread is that some of you are willing to accept Maduro’s tyranny, which includes many of the things you’re saying will happen if the US does so much as loving lift a finger. This is why you come across as hypocrites, you claim to be all for the Venezuelan people but you haven’t considered them in the slightest, to the point that some of you legitimately believe there is no crisis at all. The only reason why you’re stuck with a Venezuelan living in Sweden is because I’m patient enough to deal with the constant stream of bullshit that comes out of this thread. I would absolutely love for any of you to approach a Venezuelan and test with them if any of your views on the matter hold water, but being that you’re all part of the ineffective Twitter left that does loving nothing good for anyone, you’ll never do it.
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Aug 12, 2019 06:53
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fnox posted:The entire loving problem with this thread is that some of you are willing to accept Maduro’s tyranny, which includes many of the things you’re saying will happen if the US does so much as loving lift a finger. This is why you come across as hypocrites, you claim to be all for the Venezuelan people but you haven’t considered them in the slightest, to the point that some of you legitimately believe there is no crisis at all. No wonder you dont know about afro venezuelans, you live in sweden
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Aug 12, 2019 07:56
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420 Gank Mid posted:No wonder you dont know about afro venezuelans, you live in sweden Have you ever set foot on Venezuelan soil? If so, have you spent time there to match the Swedish dwelling Venezuelan(s) in this thread?
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Aug 12, 2019 08:58
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420 Gank Mid posted:No wonder you dont know about afro venezuelans, you live in sweden He used to live in Venezuela. Guess why he doesn't anymore.
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Aug 12, 2019 09:12
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Noshtane posted:Have you ever set foot on Venezuelan soil? If so, have you spent time there to match the Swedish dwelling Venezuelan(s) in this thread? How long do people have to spend there for it to be ok to not want a US military invasion of the country?
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Aug 12, 2019 09:20
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Randarkman posted:He used to live in Venezuela. Guess why he doesn't anymore. because that way he gets to advocate for starvation and war without suffering any consequences? Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 09:34
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Mischievous Mink posted:How long do people have to spend there for it to be ok to not want a US military invasion of the country? No one here wants US invastion of Venezuela, they just want to remove kleptocratic right-wing dictator that is currently starving his own country from power.
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Aug 12, 2019 09:41
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Mischievous Mink posted:How long do people have to spend there for it to be ok to not want a US military invasion of the country? In cases where the expats you talk to supports the democratic opposition, no matter that the US backs them, I’d say you should at least visit the country and talk to the locals before you poo poo on their struggle for democracy. What you shouldn’t do is to get your all information from Twitter echo chambers and dictator controlled sources like Telesur and what you really shouldn’t do is to go on a dead comedy forum to call the expats gusanos, plantation owners and bougies based on the warped world view you gained from your skewed news sources.
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Aug 12, 2019 09:42
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Gervasius posted:No one here wants US invastion of Venezuela, they just want to remove kleptocratic right-wing dictator that is currently starving his own country from power. Fnox actually explicitly wants a US invasion of Venezuela, and has specifically clarified so multiple times now. Noshtane posted:What you shouldn’t do is to get your all information from Twitter echo chambers and dictator controlled sources like Telesur and what you really shouldn’t do is to go on a dead comedy forum to call the expats gusanos, plantation owners and bougies based on the warped world view you gained from your skewed news sources. Sounds like I'm already ahead of the curve then, I'm not gonna buy tickets to visit Venezuela though. Mischievous Mink fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 09:59
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No surprise that the same leftist anti-"regime change" ghouls who are ride or die for Bashar Assad can't tell the difference between massacring thousands of civilians and calling for revolt against dictators. "All violence is bad and the same" say the people cheering the actual death squads operating now.
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Aug 12, 2019 10:28
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M. Discordia posted:No surprise that the same leftist anti-"regime change" ghouls who are ride or die for Bashar Assad can't tell the difference between massacring thousands of civilians and calling for revolt against dictators. "All violence is bad and the same" say the people cheering the actual death squads operating now. i think the leftists are against 10s of millions of civilians being starved to death m.discordia. dunno why you seem to think that's a good price to pay for regime change
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Aug 12, 2019 10:40
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M. Discordia posted:No surprise that the same leftist anti-"regime change" ghouls who are ride or die for Bashar Assad can't tell the difference between massacring thousands of civilians and calling for revolt against dictators. "All violence is bad and the same" say the people cheering the actual death squads operating now. Which posters are ride or die for Assad in here? I think you've posted in the wrong thread, friend.
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Aug 12, 2019 10:42
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Condiv posted:i think the leftists are against 10s of millions of civilians being starved to death History indicates otherwise
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Aug 12, 2019 11:06
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M. Discordia posted:History indicates otherwise Doesn’t seem to. The opposition are starving more and more people with their policies, especially with the embargo
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Aug 12, 2019 11:14
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Mischievous Mink posted:
Very good, but you still have ways to go. Mischievous Mink posted:
If you make it there you could also take the time to talk to the locals about the current state of affairs, maybe you'll learn to empathize with them and learn why natives of the land are at the point where some of them would prefer a US intervention over letting Maduro stay in power, despite having full knowledge of US-South American history. Condiv posted:Doesn’t seem to. The opposition are starving more and more people with their policies, especially with the embargo I wasn't Aware that Trump is also running for president in Venezuela.
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Aug 12, 2019 12:18
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420 Gank Mid posted:No wonder you dont know about afro venezuelans, you live in sweden You’ve yet to comment about indigenous people being massacred and targeted specifically by Maduro, you loving hypocrite. Mischievous Mink posted:Fnox actually explicitly wants a US invasion of Venezuela, and has specifically clarified so multiple times now. Find the quote.
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Aug 12, 2019 12:21
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Noshtane posted:I wasn't Aware that Trump is also running for president in Venezuela. trump just dictated the opposition's priorities when his flunkies unilaterally cancelled negotiations and ramped up embargoes. there's no more meaningful distinction between him and the opposition when his administration can decide on their own the position of the opposition
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Aug 12, 2019 12:26
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Randarkman posted:He used to live in Venezuela. Guess why he doesn't anymore. Probably the same reason 4,000,000 other Venezuelans fled a dying country? Condiv posted:i think the leftists are against 10s of millions of civilians being starved to death m.discordia. dunno why you seem to think that's a good price to pay for regime change Maduro has been causing his own people to starve for a lot longer than just the past few months of 2019. People have been eating out of garbage for years now. If you think the food crisis is a post 2018 problem you are woefully ignorant about what has been going on in Venezuela for the past few years.
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Aug 12, 2019 13:32
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536 posted:Probably the same reason 4,000,000 other Venezuelans fled a dying country? I think his point was that if you claim to be concerned about the food crisis, but are extremely pro a military embargo to cause a greater food crisis, well you're kinda tipping your hand
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Aug 12, 2019 13:46
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536 posted:Maduro has been causing his own people to starve for a lot longer than just the past few months of 2019. People have been eating out of garbage for years now. If you think the food crisis is a post 2018 problem you are woefully ignorant about what has been going on in Venezuela for the past few years. so the food crisis is bad up until it's massively worsened intentionally by the opposition in order to foster regime change? how about we end the sanctions and embargos and get people back to the negotiating table like before so that the food crisis can end? Condiv fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 13:54
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Condiv posted:so the food crisis is bad up until it's massively worsened intentionally by the opposition in order to foster regime change? Lets end the sanctions. That sounds great, who the gently caress is even against that? Maybe even get Maduro to accept more aid in 2017 and 2018 while his people were dying and emmigrating en masse too. We can't pretend things only got bad in 2019 after the latest encompassing round of sanctions. This has been going back years.
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Aug 12, 2019 13:58
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536 posted:Lets end the sanctions. That sounds great, who the gently caress is even against that? Maybe even get Maduro to accept more aid in 2017 and 2018 while his people were dying and emmigrating en masse too. the opposition is against that and a number of posters (such as fnox) are. for them, it's important for the US to swing around its weight to bring regime change, despite the US's hideous record on the matter even when run by competent leadership. now trump's in charge and you still have people demanding the US bring regime change to venezuela and it's p sickening.
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Aug 12, 2019 14:03
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Maduro, incompetently: look at this poo poo guys, my people are so hungry they're migrating to other countries in war refugee numbers Libs, embargoishly: you are like little baby, watch this 536 posted:We can't pretend things only got bad in 2019 after the latest encompassing round of sanctions. This has been going back years. Nobody's pretending. You don't fix a problem by actively making it worse. Unless you're of the mindset that since dead people don't eat, that's the problem fixed, that works I guess? Maduro being bad does not excuse the rest of the world to escalate the suffering.
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Aug 12, 2019 14:06
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Truga posted:Maduro, incompetently: look at this poo poo guys, my people are so hungry they're migrating to other countries in war refugee numbers Some people in this thread have argued the food crisis isn't real or is exaggerated. That somehow google reviews (lmbo) mean no one is starving or that a full supermarket in a rich area doesn't mean the poor are malnourished. Some people are even saying death squads are coming when they've had death squads from maduro for years.
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Aug 12, 2019 14:19
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536 posted:Some people in this thread have argued the food crisis isn't real or is exaggerated. That somehow google reviews (lmbo) mean no one is starving or that a full supermarket in a rich area doesn't mean the poor are malnourished. Some people are even saying death squads are coming when they've had death squads from maduro for years. ... And in Guaido and Bolton's opinions the poor aren't malnourished enough
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Aug 12, 2019 14:52
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