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AceOfFlames posted:Genuine question: how can you have time in a "mostly agrarian society"? Isn't farming some of the most intensive labor imaginable? No. People in ye olden days had free time before industrialisation. In feudal societies you'd do backbreaking labour like ploughing fields. But outside of peak times like harvest and planting seasons your probably working an awful lot fewer hours than you or I would.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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Regarde Aduck posted:Despite his lack of self insight, AceOfFlames seems to be in a rough spot and maybe lay off the dogpile? Everyone is usually so accepting, itt, of people with various mental ailements and yet because he's being non-compliant, which I admit isn't helpful, it appears the knives are out. Bold play mate let's see how it works out
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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forkboy84 posted:No. People in ye olden days had free time before industrialisation. 20 hours a week apparently
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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AceOfFlames posted:Genuine question: how can you have time in a "mostly agrarian society"? Isn't farming some of the most intensive labor imaginable? There's a reason why one of my biggest nightmares about the future is the beginning of Interstellar and that is essentially mankind's BEST case scenario at this point. Peoples free time has plummeted enormously since the industrial revolution. [e] Fuccck you guys are quick.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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Also again you don't have to go back to hitting the ground with a stick because you stopped making loving apps. Even in addition to literally watching the grass grow being part of the job of farming, you can still keep things that actually benefit people like actual labour saving devices, and employ them to actually save people loving labour rather than to maximise production at the expense of everything else.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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OwlFancier posted:I'm pretty sure you can still build combine harvesters without every other part of international capitalism. The Global Village Construction Set is pretty cool.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:21
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OwlFancier posted:Thinking technology has the potential to be useful to humans is not remotely the same thing as "we must always be 'progressing'" because that is the mindset of capitalism. No we mustn't always progress, technological and productive progress without a social foundation is exactly what got us where we are today. A perfectly static world is infinitely preferable to one where everyone gets killed by dickheads shouting PROGRESS as they wipe out most of the earth's biosphere and population. Ignoring everything that came after I actually think there is a really interesting question in here - can humans as a race function well without striving? Fiction focusing on static societies almost always portrays it as a negative. If you take a strictly darwinian view species instinct is to multiply and dominate their environment. Christianity would encourage good stewardship of our resources but the first page of the Bible says: "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” I'm aware that other scientific perspectives, philosophies and belief systems will differ but the thought doesn't come from nowhere. Midlife seems to mellow most people's desire to achieve, perhaps if we all sleep in isolation tanks until we're 40. Someone needs to write a long paper about it no-one in power will read.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:22
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OwlFancier posted:Also again you don't have to go back to hitting the ground with a stick because you stopped making loving apps.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:23
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Zalakwe posted:Ignoring everything that came after I actually think there is a really interesting question in here - can humans as a race function well without striving? I do agree society really reinforces the notion that if you're not advancing, you're a loser. My own parent especially keep telling me "with brains like yours, you could be at the very top if only you applied yourself! You're as smart or smarter than all your colleagues and they are all jumping ahead!"
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Aug 13, 2019 16:25
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OwlFancier posted:How many people alive today work in farming? And how many people are fed by that labour? Even with how much of it is wasted producing inefficient foods. Yeah but they'd be no new games to play in our free time so whats the point? We'd all just be stuck with an old version of farmville or something.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:26
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OwlFancier posted:Of course, my idea of a static world is probably some kind of mostly agrarian society without rulers, not necessarily one that doesn't have technology but which probably doesn't have a lot of the things we have today, like mass use of aircraft, ships, cars etc, no global economy, because it's somehow managed to create a durable disinterest in them, belieiving that they just do more harm than good, that they demand more of people than they give.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:28
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I like the idea of Holodecks and that machine thing where you can get any food or drink you want.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:29
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Zalakwe posted:Ignoring everything that came after I actually think there is a really interesting question in here - can humans as a race function well without striving? I would suggest that the rejection of that idea is in some respects the core of anti hierarchical thought. I can't say I have any desire to strive in that respect, nor have I ever, really. I probably had it beaten out of me fairly young given that I spent most of my youth praying for death in my sleep, but I don't think it's a necessary thing. And even if it is a thing you want, there are other outlets. Mastery of a skill I think is a good one, as previously noted. There are avenues of improvement that don't rely on taking things, there are challenges that do not involve conquest. I think it depends on the fiction. Certainly YA fiction doesn't like stasis but that's probably got a lot to do with the target demographic. But lots of fiction takes place within a static society. Hell even some very good scifi does that. The Culture is nothing if not stable, it's kind of their thing, in fact, that they haven't all sublimed, and it poses the question of what if people get bored, but it also seems to answer it with "most people don't, and when they do, they choose to die" The society as a whole is not shown as needing to strive or advance, that can all take place on the individual level. A Buttery Pastry posted:Your description doesn't really fit a "mostly agrarian" society. You don't have good housing and health without an industrial society. I mean like a society where probably the majority of the output is based around agriculture and things related to it, rather than all the other poo poo we use industry for. There probably isn't a particularly good word for it cos obviously there's never been such a society because industry came hand in hand with capitalism and it spread everywhere and ever since we've been in an ever increasing race to see what can be produced and how fast. I'm also, honestly, prepared to accept worse healthcare, because I think we'd need less of it without the damage that current society does to our bodies and minds, and because we wouldn't be waiting until "retirement" before we can do anything we enjoy. I'd be happier dying young if I had a youth worth living, rather than pissing it all away for the benefit of some rich prick so I can die in a nice dementia home. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 16:29
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Zalakwe posted:Fiction focusing on static societies almost always portrays it as a negative. lol I was about to say read Iain M Banks for a good example of fiction that portrays both the negatives and positives of a static society. Then I saw your username 
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Aug 13, 2019 16:32
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Pilchenstein posted:It's probably because I'm horrendously sleep deprived but I heard this in a proper cockney geezer accent and it's hilarious to me. *Jason Statham voice* listen sunshine, if I don't stop making apps and start hitting the ground with a stick, my heart's going to explode Failed Imagineer posted:Fota Wildlife Park in Cork used to have free range lemurs when I was a kid but the stupid bastards kept getting crushed by the train that brought you there CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 16:32
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bump_fn posted:ive never seen big bang theory but are the white male scientists in it sex pests cause if not then its not really very accurate They are, and it's played for laughs.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:40
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The Deleter posted:Also I really have to question why they think the only two options with regards to technology and advancement are a) current state where inhuman tech billionaires pick and choose where the resources go or b) the first ten turns of Civ 6. it is easier to imagine the end of the world than it is the end of capitalism
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Aug 13, 2019 16:41
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OwlFancier posted:I'm pretty sure you can still build combine harvesters without every other part of international capitalism.  forkboy84 posted:No. People in ye olden days had free time before industrialisation. AceOfFlames posted:The Global Village Construction Set is pretty cool. A more equitable society could produce a lot more stuff like that. Zalakwe posted:Ignoring everything that came after I actually think there is a really interesting question in here - can humans as a race function well without striving? Bakunin even says that we could try instilling in everyone a desire to strive to reduce injustices where they arrive, the communal society will not be a static one.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:41
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CoolCab posted:it is easier to imagine the end of the world than it is the end of capitalism Certainly if you can't do socialization. To me the end of capitalism is the relationships I have with my peers, but extended to the whole world. It's pretty easy to imagine honestly. The joys of alienation.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:44
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AceOfFlames posted:I do agree society really reinforces the notion that if you're not advancing, you're a loser. My own parent especially keep telling me "with brains like yours, you could be at the very top if only you applied yourself! You're as smart or smarter than all your colleagues and they are all jumping ahead!" My parents tell me that and I'm averagely thick as well. CoolCab posted:it is easier to imagine the end of the world than it is the end of capitalism I love the book but its accuracy depresses me
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Aug 13, 2019 16:46
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StarkingBarfish posted:lol I was about to say read Iain M Banks for a good example of fiction that portrays both the negatives and positives of a static society. Then I saw your username
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Aug 13, 2019 16:57
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OwlFancier posted:I mean like a society where probably the majority of the output is based around agriculture and things related to it, rather than all the other poo poo we use industry for. There probably isn't a particularly good word for it cos obviously there's never been such a society because industry came hand in hand with capitalism and it spread everywhere and ever since we've been in an ever increasing race to see what can be produced and how fast.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:06
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Spuckuk posted:I love the book but its accuracy depresses me Have you read any of Peter Fleming's stuff? It's in the same vein, although slightly easier reading Death of Homo Economicus The Worst is Yet To Come - A Postcapitalist Survival Guide
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Aug 13, 2019 17:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This kinda sounds like you've just fallen in love with an aesthetic, rather than thinking through the requirements of your ideal society. Like, what does "no global economy" mean to your desire to have good housing and health? Even though the global economy is a scourge upon the world in a non-sustainable for-profit industrial society, that doesn't mean it has to be in a sustainable for-welfare industrial society. The former optimizes for profitability, without a care for the misery it causes, while the latter could be optimized for global welfare. Because I am skeptical of human ability to actually organize on a large scale in such a way as to promote welfare, and so my solution is generally to suggest reducing the scale of society. Which, obviously, I don't suggest immediately because you would have to dismantle the societies that would take that as an opportunity for conquest first. But the desired end goal, I think, should be to shrink the scale of society to one that is more immediate to people, because I think it's easier for people to be less rigidly hierarchical on a small scale, when the hierarchy isn't a thing that exists on a scale far beyond them. I think that scale promotes hierarchy and vice versa. It might, of course, be possible to find a way to make such a scale of organization work but I am doubtful of it, and I don't think it's necessarily required either to give people good lives. And if you were to pursue such a thing I would rather pursue it from that starting position, rather than from our current one. I would rather see the current harmful system destroyed and abandoned as part of the scouring of the ideas it represents, than see people try to repurpose it immediately, because I don't have confidence in their ability to succeed. I think you can make sure everyone has a solid roof over their head and access to basic medical care without needing a global economy that is so abstracted from everyone as to be very open to abuse. I dunno if this is what you call municipalism but guavanaut probably does. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 17:12
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Jose posted:is this you admitting you're a sex pest? rude
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Aug 13, 2019 17:23
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Hi UKMT, I'm hoping someone here can help cause I have nowhere else to ask. My Youtube front page has gone from looking like this: To this hideous monstrosity:  Please can somebody advise how to fix? I've not done anything to change any settings. e: And the first one of you to make a 'stop watching wrestling vids' joke can do one 
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Aug 13, 2019 17:26
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Are you complaining about the layout or the fact that it now has a lot of wrestling videos on it because I don't think you will like the solution to the latter  E: Hahahah!
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Aug 13, 2019 17:28
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Dead Goon posted:I like the idea of Holodecks and that machine thing where you can get any food or drink you want.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:28
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OwlFancier posted:Hell even some very good scifi does that. The Culture is nothing if not stable, it's kind of their thing, in fact, that they haven't all sublimed, and it poses the question of what if people get bored, but it also seems to answer it with "most people don't, and when they do, they choose to die" StarkingBarfish posted:lol I was about to say read Iain M Banks for a good example of fiction that portrays both the negatives and positives of a static society. Then I saw your username Flayer posted:It's Zakalwe... Imagine misspelling that! Zalakwe posted:Fiction focusing on static societies almost always portrays it as a negative. Banks fans itt I need your help/honest opinions. Because the Culture novels come up not infrequently in the thread (and because I enjoyed The Wasp Factory and some M. Banks short stories when I read them years ago) I figured I'd give Consider Phlebas a shot. And after about 3/4s of the way through it's....ok, I guess? Given the love the series gets I feel like I'm missing something. Is it worth persevering with, or is it more likely just not my thing if I'm kinda cool on the first one?
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Aug 13, 2019 17:29
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OwlFancier posted:Are you complaining about the layout or the fact that it now has a lot of wrestling videos on it because I don't think you will like the solution to the latter Ha de ha ha. Yes, the layout stinks. Instead of seeing 10 vids at once on my laptop I can see 3 and the ones underneath my recs have no decent form of curation.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:29
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Rarity posted:Hi UKMT, I'm hoping someone here can help cause I have nowhere else to ask. My Youtube front page has gone from looking like this: mine isn't like that, but there's a button in the ... which says "restore old youtube", maybe you've got one too?
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Aug 13, 2019 17:31
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Rarity posted:Ha de ha ha. Yes, the layout stinks. Instead of seeing 10 vids at once on my laptop I can see 3 and the ones underneath my recs have no decent form of curation. I actually never use the front page but mine still seems to be sorted by category, at least. Though it loads like two rows of them rather than the one. It's possible youtube just updated it or something, they like doing that.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:33
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Skip to player of games, it's less of a slog compared to consider phlebas
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Aug 13, 2019 17:36
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[Professor Farnsworth Voice] Good News Everyone! Dominic Raab has been to Canada to speak with the Canadian equivalent of the Foreign Secretary! [/Farnsworth] https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canadas-brexit-talks-with-the-u-k-there-are-none/ (Freeland mentioned here is the Canadian Foreign Sec): quote:Raab was asked to compare the Canada-EU trade deal, CETA, with a hypothetical post-Brexit Canada-U.K. trade deal. “There are all sorts of opportunities for the future,” he said. “We’re talking about some of those issues right now.” Could he produce a third consecutive sentence with as little information as the first two? You bet he could. “I think the number one priority for the U.K. is just to have as seamless a transition as possible and we’re going to be working closely together to try and achieve that.” Oh.... oh gently caress.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:40
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OwlFancier posted:Because I am skeptical of human ability to actually organize on a large scale in such a way as to promote welfare, and so my solution is generally to suggest reducing the scale of society.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:40
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Niric posted:Banks fans itt I need your help/honest opinions. Because the Culture novels come up not infrequently in the thread (and because I enjoyed The Wasp Factory and some M. Banks short stories when I read them years ago) I figured I'd give Consider Phlebas a shot. And after about 3/4s of the way through it's....ok, I guess? Given the love the series gets I feel like I'm missing something. Is it worth persevering with, or is it more likely just not my thing if I'm kinda cool on the first one? Phlebas is... not entirely like the other ones. Though I also don't enormously enjoy them and haven't finished the books I own. I think the player of games is in some ways a better story and most people recommend that to start with. As a whole though it's a little... I think it's probably hit or miss with a lot of people. When I read them I would probably describe them as having an almost psychadelic quality to it. The books are full of these descriptions of and allusions to extremely weird and fantastical concepts. And his style is such that while he describes some of it, a lot of it is just mentioned in passing, and it gives a sense of a place that exists and that the author is familiar with and which you are just sort of passing through. It's beautiful in its way, but also a bit melancholy, like watching a whole world through the window of a speeding train. If I were to recommend it I would do so for that reason. They're pretty books. I'm not really gripped by the story but they produce quite profound imagery when you read them, or at least they do for me, but given that I am not the sort for mind affecting experiences I don't entirely enjoy that but I can see how people would. They remind me a little bit of Lord Dunsany, whether or not that's a compliment or not I don't know. Also quite a bit of the writing in Caves of Qud, again the same dreamlike, trippy quality to it, though Banks is much more coherent. Iain Banks is LSD for people who like space and don't have actual LSD, I guess is my review.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:40
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Note to self: drink mescaline in a shed then read Excession EDIT: Scratch that, read The Bridge.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:43
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If I was rich I'd have a pet raccoon. How many rich people do you know with pet raccoons? None. Money is wasted on them. Having a pet raccoon might be the only thing that saves them from the guillotine.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:44
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I got about half way through excession, i think, before I got bored and stopped. Read phlebas and the player of games, I will still say he's a good writer but I would be lying if I said I found him easy to read or necessarily enjoyable in the way I do others.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:45
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Yeah, Player of Games isn’t the first Culture book, but it’s probably the best introduction. Consider Phlebas is more of a straight sci-fi adventure and only really tangentially related to The Culture (who are weirdly the antagonists).
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