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GreyjoyBastard posted:And almost as importantly, one that future socialist governments should learn from and resolve more competently. This will never happen.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:43
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i guess your idea fnox is that if the embargo and the sanctions destroy venezuela's economy enough, someone like the imf will come in and fix things? i sure wouldn't wish that on anyone after what they've been doing with greece
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Aug 13, 2019 22:50
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There definitely seems to be a theme of Maduro trying to overpower market forces with sheer force of will that just never works out. Generally the idea of being able to centrally manage an economy more effectively than a more distributed free-market system relies on the assumption of the central management being extremely smart and effective, which is a tenuous proposition even before you start bringing in totalitarian policies.Condiv posted:i'm not making direct claims cause I'm undecided on the issue. why would i stake out a position on an issue I'm undecided on? Why are you pushing so hard against a guy making statements to the point of attacking him personally then? That's not a thing you do when you're "undecided". That's where the climate change denial thing really rings in. If you attack people for making a certain kind of statement, constantly insisting that it's faulty, at some point that's equivalent of making a statement to the contrary. I mean if you're shouting at the top of your lungs "MANY THINGS MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE AND I HAVE NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE TO ADD" why even bother talking in the first place?
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Aug 13, 2019 23:08
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Condiv posted:i guess your idea fnox is that if the embargo and the sanctions destroy venezuela's economy enough, someone like the imf will come in and fix things? http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/GRC http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/VEN
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Aug 13, 2019 23:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Why are you pushing so hard against a guy making statements to the point of attacking him personally then? That's not a thing you do when you're "undecided". That's where the climate change denial thing really rings in. If you attack people for making a certain kind of statement, constantly insisting that it's faulty, at some point that's equivalent of making a statement to the contrary. oh i'm quite decided on the sanctions and embargo starving people in venezuela. they were implemented for that purpose after all. I find it p disgusting that fnox is in favor of them when he doesn't have to suffer the consequences they bring. pre-sanction food crises I'm not sure on. It may well be that maduro's super incompetent and people were starving before. The US has had an interest in regime change in venezuela long before the trump administration though so I'm not sure what's true and what's US propaganda. A lot of thread regulars haven't proven to be particularly objective either wrt maduro, swallowing false claims like maduro burning US aid whole. In any case, I don't have a lot to add to the topic of pre-sanction food crises in venezuela, but apparently being undecided is not enough and so people like fnox keep demanding I pick a side or pretending I secretly support maduro. Flavahbeast posted:is Greece actually doing worse than Venezuela? Their HDI looks pretty good since 2012: Greece isn't being sanctioned or embargoed, so it's not surprising they are doing better than venezuela. However, after greece received aid from the IMF, this is the result: quote:The economic reforms the creditors demanded in return brought the country to its knees with a quarter of its gross domestic product (GDP) evaporating over eight years and unemployment soaring to more than 27%. If the IMF showed similar results on the wrecked remains of venezuela after years of sanctions and embargo, I shudder to think of what it'd look like. Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 23:33
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Venezuela's decline is worse than any other country not named "Syria". Greece is absolutely still a basketcase, but it's a basketcase that has settled after falling and breaking it's legs. Venezuela in contrast as been freefalling down the stairs breaking nearly every bone in its body and is still falling.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:35
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Condiv posted:oh i'm quite decided on the sanctions and embargo starving people in venezuela. they were implemented for that purpose after all. What if you’re wrong about that? Would you change your mind on other related issues?
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Aug 13, 2019 23:41
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BigFactory posted:What if you’re wrong about that? Would you change your mind on other related issues? i'm not wrong about that. even people who hate maduro admit that the sanctions cause worsening humanitarian and economic conditions. even if you think maduro has done irreperable harm to venezuela, the opposition joining hands with the US to make sure things get worse is terrible too.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:47
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Condiv posted:i'm not wrong about that. even people who hate maduro admit that the sanctions cause worsening humanitarian and economic conditions. even if you think maduro has done irreperable harm to venezuela, the opposition joining hands with the US to make sure things get worse is terrible too. I’m talking about their intended purpose, not any externalities. Are you able to make an opinion on that or are you looking for more sources of information? If you’re undecided it’s fine, you just seemed very certain that the purpose is to starve people. Can you show your sources if that’s the case? If they’re strong enough to convince you I’d like to read them.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:53
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BigFactory posted:I’m talking about their intended purpose, not any externalities. Are you able to make an opinion on that or are you looking for more sources of information? If you’re undecided it’s fine, you just seemed very certain that the purpose is to starve people. Can you show your sources if that’s the case? If they’re strong enough to convince you I’d like to read them. John Polga-Hecimovich posted:it allows Maduro and his administration to credibly blame the US for any worsening of economic and humanitarian conditions since general sanctions tend to exacerbate existing problems and simultaneously strengthen the authoritarian governments already in power. UN posted:The United Nations human rights chief has warned the latest US sanctions on Venezuela will significantly exacerbate the crisis for millions in terms of access to food and health, in a country already suffering from serious shortages of essential goods. there was of course this report, though it's not as weighty as US allies stating the sanctions will cause or worsen food and medicine crises: http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf of course, you can see the same effects in other places we've sanctioned. iran saw food shortages when the US sanctioned them in 2012 and again in 2019. Cuba is seeing food shortages after the US has been levying extra sanctions on it for providing doctors to venezuela, etc. it's an incredibly common pattern, and it's recognized by people that are definitely not pro-maduro. sanctions cause food shortages, or exacerbate pre-existing ones. even if maduro is a giant screwup and there were massive food shortages before, the increasingly heavy handed sanctions and now embargo we've laid upon venezuela furthers the starvation of venezuelans. it's unconscionable, and the US should lift all sanctions and grant refugee status to all venezuelans who want it edit: you specifically asked if I believe the purpose was to starve people, not just the end-effect, and I think the answer is yes. bolton is evil, but he's not stupid. he know's what he's doing and he's smart enough to recognize the effect the sanctions will have. and after his involvement in south american deathsquands in the past, it's obvious he's evil enough to starve venezuelans if it gets him what he wants. Condiv fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 00:07
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Condiv posted:there was of course this report, though it's not as weighty as US allies stating the sanctions will cause or worsen food and medicine crises: http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf You seem to have your mind made up.
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Aug 14, 2019 00:22
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BigFactory posted:You seem to have your mind made up. I have for a long time on the effects of the sanctions/embargos, yes
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Aug 14, 2019 00:23
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Condiv posted:yes. that's the point of the embargo and sanctions It sure is a convenience, that USA propaganda is too powerful for you to ever learn information. Are you not American who moved to France? You should read our local media perhaps and figure out if problems have exist in Venezuela for past 6 years or whether things were better under the regime of Chavez.
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Aug 14, 2019 01:50
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lol "regime"
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Aug 14, 2019 02:02
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Condiv posted:oh i'm quite decided on the sanctions and embargo starving people in venezuela. they were implemented for that purpose after all. I find it p disgusting that fnox is in favor of them when he doesn't have to suffer the consequences they bring. You’re “undecided” on something I experienced, you piece of poo poo. You’re “undecided” if Maduro is guilty of anything but you’re so sure that you’re right about the causes of starvation in Venezuela that you’re using my name on every single post for the last 3 pages. The reason why I’m not “undecided” on a loving thing is because I’ve experienced the sheer atrocity of Maduro’s regime firsthand, and I’ve seen just how inefficient, brutal and underhanded it can be. There’s not a single doubt in my mind who the culprits are in this whole mess, which you seem perfectly fine with tolerating. You don’t think I suffer “consequences”? My entire loving life has been upended because of Maduro, something you will never have to experience. I was forced to abandon my country, my family, my entire life, for one shot at getting all of us out of there. You don’t get to say a loving thing to me about consequences you disgusting piece of poo poo, this crisis doesn’t affect you in any shape or form. Maduro has costed me everything.
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Aug 14, 2019 04:58
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Venezuela has been having shortages of food and supplies for like ten years. Venezuelans living in Venezuela constantly posted so in this thread.
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Aug 14, 2019 05:08
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Condivs arguing in this thread has been rather similar to many Sweden Democrats that I’ve been unfortunate enough to speak to. Under the guise of “being undecided” and “just asking questions” they call the life experiences of refugees lies, they deny horrors of dictators and try to cast suspicion on refugees being greedy fortune seekers who lies about why they left their homes and families behind.
Noshtane fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 05:11
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fnox, just curious, why did you choose Sweden over other countries like say Germany? Did they accept you as a refugee? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 05:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:fnox, just curious, why did you choose Sweden over other countries like say Germany? Back in 2016 there weren’t very many Venezuelans being allowed asylum, this came later as the world sort of starting realizing that the expats they were getting were desperate, many of them in mortal danger if they were to come back. Many of my friends who left later have asylum in the US, Spain or even Greece. I couldn’t afford the US, and I never wanted to experience Chavismo again so I abandoned Latin America. The way I saw it, I had very little money so the only way I could afford housing would be to either live with a stranger, or in a student dorm. I also knew it would be a while until I could find a local job and not have to subsist off freelancing. I looked into Spain but it seemed impossible for me to land there with a job, and it was hard for me to get all the necessary paperwork, plus tuition, for uni. The UK, the country I’m actually a citizen of, had a ton, and I mean a ton of actual roadblocks to me moving there despite being a citizen, it also said that I didn’t qualify for any assistance, not even student loans, due to not being a resident. I couldn’t afford living there, yet I had to be living there for most legal purposes (to get healthcare in Sweden for one), so a friend of mine gave me one of their electricity bills so that I could have their home as my legal address. That really left me with either the difficult choice of looking for a shared apartment, abroad, with no chance of seeing what I would get, or getting a student dorm room somewhere that has free tuition, so that left Sweden, Denmark and Germany. The simplest admission system by far was Sweden’s, and by a stroke of luck I was given an exception to some of the academic requirements that I lacked with just my scanned Venezuelan high school grades. With that all set, I kind of just went there, and figured out the rest along the way.
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Aug 14, 2019 09:21
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you're a UK citizen?
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Aug 14, 2019 12:59
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gonna be exiled from sweden in a couple months 
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Aug 14, 2019 13:03
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punk rebel ecks posted:Venezuela has been having shortages of food and supplies for like ten years. Venezuelans living in Venezuela constantly posted so in this thread. Irrelevant to the effect of sanctions. A man is bleeding. You stab him fifty times. You say, "He was bleeding before I stabbed him!" Are you sane?
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Aug 14, 2019 14:58
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fnox posted:You don’t think I suffer “consequences”? My entire loving life has been upended because of Maduro, something you will never have to experience. I was forced to abandon my country, my family, my entire life, for one shot at getting all of us out of there. You don’t get to say a loving thing to me about consequences you disgusting piece of poo poo, this crisis doesn’t affect you in any shape or form. Maduro has costed me everything. "you know nothing of loss" is a weird argument for the dude demanding a land invasion of Venezuela, probably killing a million people. But go off i guess
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Aug 14, 2019 15:31
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Kindest Forums User posted:you're a UK citizen? By chance, yes. As I’ve explained, only 4 members of my family have it, my father, my aunt, me and my sister. My mother and grandparents do not have it. Truga posted:gonna be exiled from sweden in a couple months Fortunately Sweden has actually come out and said that current British expats won’t have their legal status affected. But yeah, the Brexit vote happened within a week of me leaving, forever ensuring that I will never truly escape the effect of noxious, idiotic polarized politics where I have no say. Slanderer posted:"you know nothing of loss" is a weird argument for the dude demanding a land invasion of Venezuela, probably killing a million people. But go off i guess When have I ever said that I wanted a land invasion of Venezuela? Find the quote. No loving joke you’re the slanderer.
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Aug 14, 2019 15:45
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fnox posted:Stuff. That's wild. Glad you got in. What do you think of Sweden? Does it bother you that it is one of the most left leaning European countries? Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Irrelevant to the effect of sanctions. A man is bleeding. You stab him fifty times. You say, "He was bleeding before I stabbed him!" Are you sane? The effects of the sanctions didn't jump Venezuela's issues as much as one thinks. Prior sanctions there was already widespread hunger. Even Maduro came out with a term for it, "The Maduro Diet." The analogy would be coming up to someone who was stabbed ten times, and stabbing them once more. However, at least you understand that Venezuela had issues with stocking food and common items before the sanctions. So that's progress.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:19
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Why do people defend the us sanctioning and embargoing Venezuela making starvation much worse just because it was already happening. It's absolutely bizarre that it's apparently acceptabke
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Aug 14, 2019 16:20
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fnox posted:You’re “undecided” on something I experienced, you piece of poo poo. You’re “undecided” if Maduro is guilty of anything but you’re so sure that you’re right about the causes of starvation in Venezuela that you’re using my name on every single post for the last 3 pages. It was pretty clear they were posting about the consequences of the sanctions.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:21
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Jose posted:Why do people defend the us sanctioning and embargoing Venezuela making starvation much worse just because it was already happening. It's absolutely bizarre that it's apparently acceptabke Where in my post did I say I was defending the sanctions?
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Aug 14, 2019 16:22
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Jose posted:Why do people defend the us sanctioning and embargoing Venezuela making starvation much worse just because it was already happening. It's absolutely bizarre that it's apparently acceptabke Because it’s incredibly evident, from within the country, that everything that Maduro has said caused the crisis was bullshit and that the explanation is fairly straightforward. The lengths you and the CSPAM crew will go to absolve Maduro of all blame from causing the crisis that is what is starving people is astonishing. You’re making it seem like the problem in Venezuela is that the government can’t import food, or can’t afford food, but they can. They can still afford to literally give away gasoline for free. You can get all sorts of imported goods in Venezuela, and you have always been able to, the US is not blocking the entry of food. The reason why people are starving is because they can’t afford food, so they have to rely on the CLAP boxes, a system so brutally inefficient and corrupt it doesn’t even come close to feeding a single household sufficiently. The reason why they’re poor is because of Maduro ruining them, because Maduro uses food and poverty as means to secure his rule, as shown by how state benefits require a Homeland card.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:38
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It's not that the US government isn't wildly irresponsible with policies that bounce between incompetent and malicious, it's that the US is not the source of all the world's problems and most of Venezuela's problems come from within Venezuela and even if the US lays off, the same problems will remain.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:42
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Problems exist anyway therefore making problems worse is obviously fine
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Aug 14, 2019 16:46
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fnox posted:
What the hell are you arguing for then?
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Aug 14, 2019 16:46
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fnox posted:Because it’s incredibly evident, from within the country, that everything that Maduro has said caused the crisis was bullshit and that the explanation is fairly straightforward. The lengths you and the CSPAM crew will go to absolve Maduro of all blame from causing the crisis that is what is starving people is astonishing. the ship was turned away by, i dunno. elves or something
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Aug 14, 2019 16:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's not that the US government isn't wildly irresponsible with policies that bounce between incompetent and malicious, it's that the US is not the source of all the world's problems and most of Venezuela's problems come from within Venezuela and even if the US lays off, the same problems will remain. I said this months ago; the biggest impediment to reform and removal of Maduro is the US applying pressure. Things are bad in Venezuela and likely the government would topple, absent the immediate and overt international preassure pushing for it immediately at the first sign of instability which solidifies the base supporting Maduro, including the military. It's like Cuba; reform is a lot harder if you fear subversion and attack at every stumble. There are problems in Venezuela. Lots of problems. But they are for the Venezuelans to solve, not foreign governments or capital. We can offer aide to help them, but applying pressure, directly supporting factions, or god forbid an invasion would not be welcomed. It would be as bad as Iraq, likely much worse, Maduro may be weak but the military is much better and more organized than Saddam's forces were by 2003. E; let's also be clear; though several people benefit from the crisis in Venezuela, it wasn't engineered by Maduro or anything, it evolved from unsustainable policies of redistribution bought with oil wealth. This is what happens in a resource producing state that did not ensure it had domestic production operating for other goods. It's a trap a country can fall into during times of largesse from high resource prices. Hell this poo poo happened in US oil states. It's why resource booms are in fact, terrible economic investments and indicators. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 16:52
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:What the hell are you arguing for then? The immediate removal of Maduro. Elections within 30 days with a new CNE. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the ship was turned away by, i dunno. elves or something Which ship? Are you aware that you can get loving Domino’s in Venezuela if you’d like? If you’re talking about oil revenues, they’ve been plummeting for a while because like everything else in the country, it’s mismanaged. The sanctions may have made a dent, but the country was already in default before them, Maduro stubbornly continued paying Wall Street instead of focusing on ending the food crisis.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:52
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Venezuela hosed up its economy so bad because instead of funding it's social programs, food production, infrastructure, and large scale projects via taxation from the greater economy, they instead just took money from oil revenue. Once oil prices dropped all the funding dried up, so the economy and infrastructure tanked. The crude oil price chart matches up with Venezuela's GDP history almost perfectly. 
punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 16:53
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fnox posted:The immediate removal of Maduro. Elections within 30 days with a new CNE. Fair enough. The US and Lima group more than anything else they did hosed that up with their immediate political backing of Guaido.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:The effects of the sanctions didn't jump Venezuela's issues as much as one thinks. Prior sanctions there was already widespread hunger. Even Maduro came out with a term for it, "The Maduro Diet." Any amount of times greater than zero is unacceptable! "We only increased suffering by 10%, I reckon. That means I win the argument!" - That's you. punk rebel ecks posted:Where in my post did I say I was defending the sanctions? Great. The sanctions should be immediately and unconditionally lifted, then, right?
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Aug 14, 2019 17:07
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Any amount of times greater than zero is unacceptable! "We only increased suffering by 10%, I reckon. That means I win the argument!" - That's you. So you admit that the lionshare of Venezuela's woes are due to the PSUV's policies. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Great. The sanctions should be immediately and unconditionally lifted, then, right? Yes.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:17
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punk rebel ecks posted:So you admit that the lionshare of Venezuela's woes are due to the PSUV's policies. No. I take no position on that whatsoever. It's not relevant to my objection to US Foreign Policy.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:20
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