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Guavanaut posted:I know a couple of small adult daughters who get away with hardly ever paying VAT on clothing because of loopholes in that. And some 5ft9in 11 year old girls with 40" busts and adult size 10 feet who have to get adult clothing. Dear reader, I was that child. catte tax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAjs3SdwTAk Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:08 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 12:20 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't disagree with that, but stratification and specialization isn't the same thing, even if the latter is a requirement for the former. Like, instead of attacking specialization, just go directly for stratification. Whichever specialization you end up getting rid off as you remove stratification is specialization you definitely didn't want. They aren't the same thing but I would suggest that stratification is a subset of specialization, a perfectly specialized society would be just as, if not even more incapable of operating collectively. Stratification is, if anything, when people of a specialization get together to lord it over other people. They are both instances of alienation but one is, you might say, the alienation of classes rather than individuals.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:11 |
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:And some 5ft9in 11 year old girls with 40" busts and adult size 10 feet who have to get adult clothing. The public notice for kids clothing literally states the maximum bra size allowable for zero rating the vat. Doing it by size is a really dumb way to do it, but alas, VAT. E: kids clothing in general, not bra sizes specifically lmao Sanitary Naptime fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:14 |
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Failed Imagineer posted:Cheap construction is simple: This is what we're gonna do on the moon and mars. Where everyone will be a super science expert, able to turn their hand expertly to each and every task like elon can, so getting rid of stratification.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:20 |
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NotJustANumber99 posted:This is what we're gonna do on the moon and mars. Where everyone will be a super science expert, able to turn their hand expertly to each and every task like elon can, so getting rid of stratification. Colonising europa so everyone can build their own innovative submarine
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:21 |
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:And some 5ft9in 11 year old girls with 40" busts and adult size 10 feet who have to get adult clothing. Yeah I'm 6'4" and if the first year of his life is any indication my son is going to beat that so I had some personal stakes in choosing that example. It's an interesting example of having to go with a "good enough" measure in legislation, because while the fairest way to apply VAT on children's clothes would be by age, applying that in practice would turn any clothes shopping trip into some Numbers Fuckstein affair. Size is a good enough proxy even if it means some small adults are unfairly advantaged and Large Not Quite Adult Sons and Daughters are unfairly disadvantaged. But we get to reach high shelves unassisted so there are upsides.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:31 |
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It me, the 8 year old with clown feet.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:32 |
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Sanitary Naptime posted:The public notice for kids clothing literally states the maximum bra size allowable for zero rating the vat. Necessity: Luxury: NotJustANumber99 posted:This is what we're gonna do on the moon and mars. Where everyone will be a super science expert, able to turn their hand expertly to each and every task like elon can, so getting rid of stratification. e: Party Boat posted:It's an interesting example of having to go with a "good enough" measure in legislation, because while the fairest way to apply VAT on children's clothes would be by age, applying that in practice would turn any clothes shopping trip into some Numbers Fuckstein affair. Size is a good enough proxy even if it means some small adults are unfairly advantaged and Large Not Quite Adult Sons and Daughters are unfairly disadvantaged. But we get to reach high shelves unassisted so there are upsides.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:33 |
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Fairest would just be to get rid of the VAT exemption on kids clothes. You’ve got the child tax credit to pay for that. But some things are too ingrained to be worth the effort changing. Can you imagine the headlines
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:35 |
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OwlFancier posted:They aren't the same thing but I would suggest that stratification is a subset of specialization OwlFancier posted:a perfectly specialized society would be just as, if not even more incapable of operating collectively. Stratification is, if anything, when people of a specialization get together to lord it over other people. They are both instances of alienation but one is, you might say, the alienation of classes rather than individuals. Sanitary Naptime posted:The public notice for kids clothing literally states the maximum bra size allowable for zero rating the vat.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:40 |
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Cerv posted:Fairest would just be to get rid of the VAT exemption on kids clothes. So unless we're going to allow public nudity, non-luxury clothes for people of all ages should be VAT exempt or zero rated, and the fashion labels can have their Jaffa cake moment trying to prove that they're not luxury while telling all their target market that they are.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:43 |
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Guavanaut posted:I know a couple of small adult daughters who get away with hardly ever paying VAT on clothing because of loopholes in that. Clothing has loopholes, who'da thunk it.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:44 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, that's why I said one was a requirement for the other. I would probably characterise less time working and more time being around other people as working to reduce specialization, because most of who you are and what you do is in the same sphere as everyone else. Whereas someone who spends most of their time working, in an environment defined by specialist practice, with minimal connection to other people, that person probably isn't going to be able to easily organize with others outside their environment. Or at least they are operating at a disadvantage when doing so. The effect of that alienation is to harm their sense of collective being. This is further exacerbated when their work comes with an attendant social circle separated from the common one, and so on. But I would point out that you're describing a society where people do less specialized work, just less per person rather than fewer people doing it. Like necessarily this is still gonna involve eliminating a lot of specialist labour on the grounds that it's unneccessary and people should be doing other things with their time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:45 |
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Cerv posted:Fairest would just be to get rid of the VAT exemption on kids clothes. Not any more lol it's all Universal Credit
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:45 |
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sup sup
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:47 |
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Cerv posted:Fairest would just be to get rid of the VAT on everything.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:54 |
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OwlFancier posted:I would probably characterise less time working and more time being around other people as working to reduce specialization, because most of who you are and what you do is in the same sphere as everyone else. OwlFancier posted:But I would point out that you're describing a society where people do less specialized work, just less per person rather than fewer people doing it. OwlFancier posted:Like necessarily this is still gonna involve eliminating a lot of specialist labour on the grounds that it's unneccessary and people should be doing other things with their time. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:06 |
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As a quick thing, how are we supposed to prevent folks taking money out of the country if we start putting up more taxes on things? Alongside that, why has no one ever thought about plonking a battalion in the Camen Islands and going "this is ours now"?
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:08 |
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I would suggest that if you're proposing making people spend, say, most of their time not working and also eliminating work-related social groupings, economic and otherwise, that's a pretty radical change away from the current effects of specialized labour which are to divide people both economically and socially. And while it would likely help to promote people caring about each other, that itself is still a bit of a patch over the material lack of accountability between different groups. Possibly a sufficient one and certainly a model I would suggest trying where specialist labour is necessary, to mitigate its downsides, but it doesn't really get rid of the downsides. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:10 |
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Josef bugman posted:As a quick thing, how are we supposed to prevent folks taking money out of the country if we start putting up more taxes on things? Well the obvious answer is "capital controls".
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:10 |
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Josef bugman posted:As a quick thing, how are we supposed to prevent folks taking money out of the country if we start putting up more taxes on things? Capital controls would do it and also spook the City into a terminal(?) heart attack. And we've never sent our divisions to the tax havens because the people in charge of the divisions have their money there. The only way they'd send them is to defend the islands.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:11 |
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I more mean in general. It seems so strange to me that if/when the world catches on fire all of these loving moronic people who believe themselves to be titans of industry or Randian Ubermensch think that money and coin are going to be useful. Or that the heavily armed personal guards will not hesitate to execute them and live in the palaces they build for themselves. I just don't get it at all.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:14 |
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Guavanaut posted:Isn't the point of the zero rating is that kids' clothes are a necessity, like uncatered food and soft drinks, animals, animal feed, plants and seeds, helicopters, antique jade statues, that sort of thing. every other EU country has VAT on kids clothes as well as adult. It’ll be fine. The idea of VAT as a “luxury” tax is a complete fiction btw
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:18 |
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Guavanaut posted:Isn't the point of the zero rating is that kids' clothes are a necessity, like uncatered food and soft drinks, animals, animal feed, plants and seeds, helicopters, antique jade statues, that sort of thing. Adults can just wear colour-coded uniforms: quote:* Alphas are society's intellectuals, like college professors, scientists, and leaders and wear gray source: https://study.com/academy/lesson/5-caste-colors-in-brave-new-world.html (I didn't know that last bit about Europe!) Actually reminds me of what happened to my nan during WW2. Family was from large midlands city that got bombed to heck in WW2 and she and my dad and uncles (who were young kids) were evacuated to an army camp in Devon somewhere while grandad was off fighting. Nan spoke and dressed well and the army commissioned officers' wives 'allowed' her to socialize with them until the day grandad came home on leave and - horrors - was just a sergeant at which point they cut her dead. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:24 |
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Josef bugman posted:I more mean in general. It seems so strange to me that if/when the world catches on fire all of these loving moronic people who believe themselves to be titans of industry or Randian Ubermensch think that money and coin are going to be useful. Or that the heavily armed personal guards will not hesitate to execute them and live in the palaces they build for themselves. It's all just a giant fantasy that works well because the world itself still sorta/kinda works OK to support the infrastructure etc. that these bozos depend on. The moment the poo poo really hits the fan, as you say, the armed guards are gonna take their dragon hoard and shoot these people. But this is like when you're a kid building a 'fort' in the woods and then running around with a stick that's your rifle.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:24 |
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Josef bugman posted:Alongside that, why has no one ever thought about plonking a battalion in the Camen Islands and going "this is ours now"? Cerv posted:every other EU country has VAT on kids clothes as well as adult. It’ll be fine.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:26 |
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smh if your fort doesn't include revetments and ravelins and interlocking fields of fire.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:26 |
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Yeah VAT is one of the more problematic parts of the EU, at it's most charitable the VAT rules are a necessary evil to prevent cross-border shenanigans. Though it's been around on the continent for a long time to the point where it would be an uphill struggle to abolish it. Maybe, possibly, just about, one could get away with arguing for a lower mandatory rate, but you'd still have to convince people to have higher income taxes and the elites to accept higher capital gains taxes to compensate.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:29 |
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UKMT August 2019 - we (UK) should simply invade the Cayman Islands peacefully
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:33 |
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Adults can just wear colour-coded uniforms: Sumptuary laws existed in England until the Georgian era, and it was basically lobbying from the new clothing industry that got rid of them.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:35 |
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Party Boat posted:UKMT August 2019 - we (UK) should simply invade the Cayman Islands peacefully HA! Also, sorry for misspelling "Cayman"! Gonna be honest here folks, not feeling my best atm. I am still on the waiting list for therapy but have been for about a year. Alongside that, does anyone else think about killing themselves every day? It's become such a regular drum beat inside my head that I barely even notice it, but then I'm around normal folks and suddenly realise "Oh nooo, this isn't how folks usually feel"
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:36 |
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It's gotten less pronounced of late but yes, once you get into the habit it's hard to get out of.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:38 |
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that if you're proposing making people spend, say, most of their time not working and also eliminating work-related social groupings, economic and otherwise, that's a pretty radical change away from the current effects of specialized labour which are to divide people both economically and socially. I don't really disagree as such with the idea that it has downsides, but I think you're severely underestimating the upsides. (For a given value of upsides, given that someone might argue quite convincingly that human civilization is a blight upon the universe.)
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:39 |
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Josef bugman posted:Gonna be honest here folks, not feeling my best atm. I am still on the waiting list for therapy but have been for about a year. Alongside that, does anyone else think about killing themselves every day? It's become such a regular drum beat inside my head that I barely even notice it, but then I'm around normal folks and suddenly realise "Oh nooo, this isn't how folks usually feel" I used to have it about once a day or so, mainly when standing on tube or train platforms. It's a terrible loving feeling. Wish I had anything better or more sensible to say than it really does get better. My best advice I can give is to spend as much time as you can outside - I used to walk at least 10-20km a day in the park or something and the fresh air and seeing biodiversity and life really kept me sane. Feel better man.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:40 |
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Josef bugman posted:HA! Try seeing someone who can prescribe medication. It won’t fix everything, but it may put you on a good footing until you get into seeing a therapist.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:44 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think my issue with your position is that it basically seems to be "specialist labour is only required for a few key tasks where society has judged that the benefits outweigh the downsides" - despite like every bit of civilization being a result of specialization - and modern technology requiring specialist knowledge every step of the way. And you can't just hand-wave technology as unnecessary consumer products, because society would still need to be just as specialized to create and maintain medical and other technology that you've identified as an important part of your ideal society. I think I would agree more that it has very good upsides when modern society is not on course to kill millions of people because people barely notice it's happening, because through nations and classes and the atomization of labour we are sequestered from one another. I don't take the view that human civilization is inherently bad, I take the view that it's the only thing capable of making value judgements so that question is kind of nonsensical, but I also take the view that it's rather hard to say that it, at present, is either good or sustainable.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:45 |
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lol https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1164246937543028737?s=20
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:45 |
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Chuka Umana posted:Try seeing someone who can prescribe medication. It won’t fix everything, but it may put you on a good footing until you get into seeing a therapist. Oh I am already on meds. 100 mg of sertraline per day. I swear London goes through so much of the stuff that the fish in the Thames must be perpetually blissed out.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:46 |
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Also I should ask, is there any confirmation that’d there be a shortage of psychiatric medicines in a no deal Brexit?
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:48 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 12:20 |
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Oh boy, issue #0002 of The Brexiteer, The Newspaper Of The Brexit Party, just arrived. Headline: Boris' Tories CAN'T... Corbyn's Labour WON'T... Who Do You Trust To Deliver Brexit?
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:54 |