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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:If they're not, they should be. 'Rojava' is just another Israel. And in the spirit of my last post here...I am legit curious about this take, just yea...try not to hang yourself.
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Aug 21, 2019 15:12
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You see the Kurds are an intrusive settler people... bear with me because this takes some explaining.
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Aug 21, 2019 16:50
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The Kurds aren't a nation. They have no single common language and no common economic life. They're national minorities in the four countries they mostly reside in. The creation of an artificial Kurdish nation in northern Syria is an act of US colonialism to balkanize a US enemy. Their encroachment into majority Arab regions and the suppression of Assyrian culture put paid to the lie of national liberation. The ideology of the PKK, communal municipalism, was created by ardent zionist Murray Bookchin. Their 'leftism' is a hollow figleaf to drum up support in the west, a la the kibbutz. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 21, 2019 17:04
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The Kurds aren't a nation. They have no single common language and no common economic life. They're national minorities in the four countries they mostly reside in. The creation of an artificial Kurdish nation in northern Syria is an act of US colonialism to balkanize a US enemy. Their encroachment into majority Arab regions and the suppression of Assyrian culture put paid to the lie of national liberation. The ideology of the PKK, communal municipalism, was created by ardent zionist Murray Bookchin. Their 'leftism' is a hollow figleaf to drum up support in the west, a la the kibbutz. What's wrong with national liberation for the Kurdish exactly? If that is what it takes to stop deadly oppression of minorities in countries, what's so bad about that solution? Coincidentally this is literally what happened in the Balkans with the Yugoslav war. This is what the term Balkanisation means. In short, gently caress your Arab dictatorships and the hell they spawned from.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:13
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:What's wrong with national liberation for the Kurdish exactly? If that is what it takes to stop deadly oppression of minorities in countries, what's so bad about that solution? Because it's not national liberation, because Kurds aren't a nation. It's colonialism. Yes, it's literally what occurred in the Balkans war and that's why we have artificial nations like 'Kosovo' that exist today.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:18
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The Kurds aren't a nation. They have no single common language and no common economic life. I love how you can always tell that tankies spend all their college credits on economic stuff, and maybe poli-sci. But skip anything related to sociology. Like the leftist equivalent of skipping leg day. "no no see, this ethnicity isn't allowed a common identity because they don't all speak mutually intelligible dialects! Yes yes that's it, whose ever heard of an ethnicity that spoke multiple dialects or closely related languages! Also economics has something to do with this somehow."
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Aug 21, 2019 17:18
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Because it's not national liberation, because Kurds aren't a nation. It's colonialism. well at least you edited the descriptor of kosovo before I could  at you i guess
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Aug 21, 2019 17:20
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This Monday the independence of the Irish nation was called into question at the meeting of the ORPF (Omaha Real People's Front) at their 3rd party conference at the local Chuck E Cheese. "How can they be a nation! They don't even speak Irish! They speak English!" said party premier Fahrt Moxley.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:21
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Colonial is a strong word. Something you might apply to say a mindset. Like a mindset that refuses to ever recognize local feelings and history in countries that are undergoing conflicts involving major power blocs. And only choosing to see all local anything in the light of motives and doings (speculative or otherwise) of the major powers. For instance: Oh? This local issue has been raging for a century? I don't care. Please tell which superpower is involved with giving a gun to this cause at the moment, this will determine if it is legitimate or not to me, a very not colonial guy.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:24
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Grape posted:I love how you can always tell that tankies spend all their college credits on economic stuff, and maybe poli-sci. But skip anything related to sociology. It was literally one of my double majors, along with history. Read Hobsbawm. The invention of a common national language was and is key to the development of a nation. Or read Stalin if you want to understand the need for common economic life to be part of the definition of a nation. I'd also add that the Kurds don't have a common national spirit either. Turkish and Iraqi Kurds have intense political differences and Rojava has no interest in forming a common Kurdish state with the Iraqi Kurdish autonomous region or vice versa. Grape posted:For instance: Oh? This local issue has been raging for a century? I don't care. Please tell which superpower is involved with giving a gun to this cause at the moment, this will determine if it is legitimate or not to me, a very not colonial guy. Zionism has been around for longer than a century too. Just because a people aspire to a nation doesn't make it a legitimate cause. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 17:30
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It was literally one of my double majors. Read Hobsbawm. The invention of a common national language was and is key to the development of a nation. It's also potentially irrelevant entirely to a people considering themselves a people. For instance there's an obscure Asian ethnic group... I feel kind of pedantic even bringing them up tbh so forgive me here, but have you heard of the Chinese? quote:I'd also add that the Kurds don't have a common national spirit either. Turkish and Iraqi Kurds have intense political differences Multiple governments at odds means there is no shared concept of an ethnicity? Hmm. Again, gonna go obscure (sorry). But have you heard of the Chinese?
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Aug 21, 2019 17:35
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Grape posted:It's also potentially irrelevant entirely to a people considering themselves a people. There are many nations that make up China, with many other national minorities.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:37
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:There are many nations that make up China, with many other national minorities. And also 90% of the country identifies with the Han ethnicity, aka the "Chinese" ethnicity. Aka Han Chinese. Speaking one of many fun mutually unintelligible languages! -Mandarin! -Wu! -Gan! -Xiang! -Min! -Hakka! -Yue! Some dialects even within these languages are unintelligible! I begin to suspect a plot to destroy China. Introducing division in the Han ranks, to seed the balkanization of the lands of the CCP. Nice try CIA.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:41
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You must invest points in the common language skills tree before nationality skills become available
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Aug 21, 2019 17:50
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Because it's not national liberation, because Kurds aren't a nation. It's colonialism. It's also why we have very much legit nations, like mine and at least 2 others, whose people did in fact have a fair amount of historical precedence for existing and having their own nation. As far as I'm aware, the Kurds certainly have as much if not more, though unlike us they're located in an area whose borders were defined very arbitrarily, as opposed to by any kind of legitimately ethnic lines, hence for them the prospect of their own country is a lot more difficult. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Or read Stalin if you want to understand the need for common economic life to be part of the definition of a nation. ...do you have even the faintest idea of what nightmarish ways he put that poo poo into practice? And that he also originally believed the Chinese could never be a communist nation, cuz they were filthy peasants and there was no industry for a revolution to even happen, but lo and behold that didn't stop them from winding up where they are now? Like...your sources are pretty questionable, let alone your interpretation of them. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 18:17
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Someone plz provide me with a list of the ethnicities that are approved for nation-having ty tia
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Aug 21, 2019 18:19
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Like by that standard it's a good thing no one is letting the native americans have a state because they dare to speak their own languages
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Aug 21, 2019 18:20
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It was literally one of my double majors, along with history. Read Hobsbawm. The invention of a common national language was and is key to the development of a nation. Or read Stalin if you want to understand the need for common economic life to be part of the definition of a nation. I'd also add that the Kurds don't have a common national spirit either. Turkish and Iraqi Kurds have intense political differences and Rojava has no interest in forming a common Kurdish state with the Iraqi Kurdish autonomous region or vice versa. Buddy if you ever find yourself raving about national spirit you need to sit down and have a hard look at yourself and consider maybe going back to materialism and easing up on the metaphysics, idealism, and fascism mkay  most of your points are nonsensical in context anyway. Whether all kurds globally collectively have a common identity is not very important. A better question is if Syrian Kurds have a common identity, common language, common experience, and are commonly recognized as a group by others. The answer is clearly yes for the vast majority, although maybe no for the yazidis. Whether they have differences with Iraqi Kurds is not really important to Rojava. Also if Rojava is another Israel what does that make the Assad government, which is widely recognized even by Sunnis who support it as exclusively representing the interests of Alawites. In practice both Rojava and the Syrian government have much the same approach to the Sunnis and christians under their rule, give them them just enough symbolic but powerless public leadership roles to maintain the fig leaf of a representative government. The big difference is Rojava doesn't torture people when they complain. Squalid fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 18:23
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I was legit thinking he'd go moreso into the territory of: "Rojava is just like Israel, in that it treats its captives and arab populace poorly" and provide some examples, of which there may actually be a few, but yea this is just...a pretty asinine argument to make IMO. Anyone, who belongs to a group of people that have enough shared history and sense of belonging, can work towards their nation, it's just that the difficulty of doing that depends on how many gatekeepers outside the group, like yourself, are in the immediate vicinity to say: "No you can't, goddamit, this is our land!" Take my country for example (Slovenia). During our 10-days war of independence, it honestly wasn't a surefire thing whether we'd actually get acknowledged by the rest of the democratic world as a legit new country, even tho we were the first to split off alongside the Croats. A whole week went by, militarily we did well, but there wasn't much of a peep from anyone on the side of NATO about us being a legit country, like we claimed we were. It wasn't until one of our catholic priests managed to persuade the German chancellor, with whom he was good personal friends, and then he raised that issue and before you know it, whaddaya know? The world started believing we were a legit people to have our country, even if yea...we've been around for like 500-1500 years, depending on whom you ask. Really, for the Kurds the same thing could easily happen IMO. Just yea...Turkey's still pretty strong and not having that in any way for a second, not even with none of its territory part of this new country and only as its neighbor, and Iraq handily shut down Rojava earlier too so...they really don't have any allies (other than the US, who was just there to stomp ISIS and call it mission accomplished, even though it's all but certain that they'll return the moment the regional powers weaken enough again and those they appeal to get pissed off enough) or opportunities for it, hence why it doesn't happen. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 18:31
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it seems like a really common thing for tankies to accuse bookchin of being a zionist, but like all ive been able to find from him on the subject is this article from 1986 which seems pretty tame http://greenantifascism.blogspot.com/2016/09/attacks-on-israel-ignore-long-history.html?m=1
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Aug 21, 2019 18:46
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Squalid posted:i mean. . . kinda? It also depends on what you mean by "solve." The median insurgency is more like the Baader-Mienhof Group than the Viet Kong. Most never gain meaningful public support, last only a few years, and are caught by an FBI equivalent before the military even gets involved. I would argue that when the Soviet Union crushed the anti-communist parisans in the Baltics they "solved" the insurgency problem. What they didn't solve was the desire for political independence from the local population, but considering they kicked that can down the road 50 years its hard not to at least call it a tactical win. I think it's important to remember that insurgencies rarely sprout from the ground without reason. Military force can be used to stop an insurgency dead in its track, but if the reason for their existence hasn't disappeared then eventually the insurgency will once again spout anew. The root cause needs to be addressed. Iraq is the absolute and most horrifying contemporary example. First the US military and Maliki creates the insurgency, after lots of deaths the US military starts addressing the root causes, Obama pulls out the rug for populist reaons and Maliki gets back to his old crap, former insurgents who've accumulated power in Syria invade across the border, sunni militias side with them because what options do they have, genocidal shia militias are rallied to fight ISIS off, tons of sunni citizens are killed by militia death squads, many more get sentenced to execution through illegitimate trials, the root causes are never addressed and now that a few years have passed we can soon expect things to begin again. The above was a massive oversimplification but my point is that indefinite insurgencies are only inevitable when the people in power want them to be. The solution to an ongoing insurgency is almost always pacification through violence, but only through political and institutional reform can the root cause be addressed. That rarely means that the insurgency get what they're asking for, it just means they get an acceptable enough alternative that a likely death by asymmetric warfare no longer seems like the most attractive option. Well that or you can do a genocide. Old civilizations rarely dealed with these questions because they had no qualms about destroying human settlements utterly, capturing survivors to be sold and displacing those deemed not valuable. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 19:06
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Savy Saracen salad posted:There is nothing bizarre about being anti totalitarian warlord. You can put me firmly in that category as well as anyone whom actually interacted with the displaced masses of syria in the neighbouring countries. I hate totalitarianism too. What were some non totalitarian factions in the syrian conflict? The SDF? Hezbollah? Iran? Their system allows for clerical vetos but it has elections through which factional interests are represented, and a single strongman doesn't determine everything right?
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Aug 21, 2019 20:42
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Someone plz provide me with a list of the ethnicities that are approved for nation-having ty tia -The kind currently aligned with my sports team power bloc . End of list.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The Kurds aren't a nation. They have no single common language and no common economic life. They're national minorities in the four countries they mostly reside in. The creation of an artificial Kurdish nation in northern Syria is an act of US colonialism to balkanize a US enemy. Their encroachment into majority Arab regions and the suppression of Assyrian culture put paid to the lie of national liberation. The ideology of the PKK, communal municipalism, was created by ardent zionist Murray Bookchin. Their 'leftism' is a hollow figleaf to drum up support in the west, a la the kibbutz. Mmh, yes, the people living in an area of the world do not have the right to self-determination because there are borders that split their lands, as a result of conquests, colonialism, and the downfall of an empire. Letting them get some amount of regional autonomy after eight years of bloody civil war is therefore exactly the same thing as European settlers deciding that one middle eastern country belonged to them because their religious book said so.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:21
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there is an angle where you can make the Kurdistan=Israel 2 comparison kind of work. if you just look at Israel as a case of the US saying "this ethnic group's claims of nationality will be recognized in exchange for them being our regional catspaws," and are under the impression that the US plan is to prop up Rojava rather than brutally betray them the second they can get someone with a brain not made of pudding to sign off on it, you can say they're fundamentally similar. this angle is 1. remarkably useless as far as advancing anybody's agendas goes 2. not the angle WhiskeyWhiskers is taking
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Aug 21, 2019 21:42
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is an angle where you can make the Kurdistan=Israel 2 comparison kind of work. if you just look at Israel as a case of the US saying "this ethnic group's claims of nationality will be recognized in exchange for them being our regional catspaws," and are under the impression that the US plan is to prop up Rojava rather than brutally betray them the second they can get someone with a brain not made of pudding to sign off on it, you can say they're fundamentally similar. It would also be a criticism of the US, and not a carpet bomb denial of Kurdish nationalism.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:46
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Grape posted:It would also be a criticism of the US, and not a carpet bomb denial of Kurdish nationalism. it'd also be a criticism of the concept of puppet ethnostates in general, but it ends up a largely useless observation regardless. not a lot of people out there on the Actually More Of Those Are A Good Idea train.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:55
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It does seems a bit weird to argue that Kurdish militias are an incipient ethno-state but that the Kurds aren't a real ethnicity. It's internally coherent as long as you're willing to have a suspiciously rigid and fascistic sounding definition of what exactly constitutes a "legitimate" nation but its also almost invariably an argument used to justify ethnic cleansing and probably not a premise that should even be treated as worthy of debate, at least in the context of contemporary middle eastern politics.
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Aug 21, 2019 21:56
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there are legitimate parallels between rojava and israel - utopian-socialist decentralised heavily militarised societies with a strong ethnic flair in a hostile region - but enough differences to make it pretty much useless, e.g. the YPG's formal renunciation of ethnochauvinism, the anticlericalism and the fact that, you know, the kurds are actually from the area and likely have roots there stretching back for generations. the settler aspect is completely absent, even if they have ethnically cleansed arabs from some of the areas they've taken over i'm really skeptical of legitimising revolutionary projects like rojava in terms of rights to a nation-state or something, though. rojava, warts and all, draws most of its legitimacy from being the de facto political force in charge of the area. if they end up getting recognised as their own thing (lol never going to happen) it'll probably not be as a kurdish nation-state, because the area is full of arabs which they will absolutely need to integrate somehow, but rather they'll probably try to pull a soviet union-style legitimacy through internationalism or a union of peoples or some such e. i am tired, so this post is pretty poorly worded. hopefully i've not said anything too stupid V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 22:00
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mila kunis posted:I hate totalitarianism too. What were some non totalitarian factions in the syrian conflict? The SDF? Hezbollah? Iran? Their system allows for clerical vetos but it has elections through which factional interests are represented, and a single strongman doesn't determine everything right? Sunni Islamists = Good. Shias/YPG/SDF = Bad.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:08
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first time seeing a stalin-did-nothing-wrong tankie. but semi related, are there significant intra-kurdish tensions?
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Aug 21, 2019 22:09
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Simply put, yes.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:14
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Stalin is a major authority on the fragile subject of ethnic identity and self-determination. You can find his thoughts chiefly in his seminal work, Ethnicities: How to Pack Them Into Box Cars And Send Them All To Kazakhstan.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:15
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A big flaming stink posted:first time seeing a stalin-did-nothing-wrong tankie. Most of the actual heavy handed stuff the YPG does is crack down on The Wrong Sort Of Kurdish Nationalism. Like, every time you hear about the YPG shutting down an opposition party's office somewhere or whatnot, it's always rival Kurdish nationalist parties. My understanding is they basically get around the fact that kurds are generally kinda conservative and don't particularly care about Women's Liberation or the specifics of Democratic Confederalism by making themselves the only place to go to support kurdish self-determination.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:34
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A big flaming stink posted:but semi related, are there significant intra-kurdish tensions? Massive, yeah. The Iraqi Kurds had a civil war in the 90's when they were protected from Saddam by the US, and both factions hate the PKK/YPG.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:35
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Imagine having an opinion so stupid that you unite the loving middle east thread against you smh
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Aug 21, 2019 22:56
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PUK hosted PKK bases iirc, I thought they were softer on them. KDP are the dominant party in Iraqi Kurdistan and a bit of a family kleptocracy. They have a power sharing agreement with PUK, but yeah they fought a war in the 90s. Before the “insanity” that is US special forces embedded themselves in the PKK/YPG, the US was best buddies with KDP. Edit: KDP are close to turkey, PUK moved closer to federalized Iraq and hold the presidency of Iraq, iirc. I’m also likely wrong on some of this and restating stuff that someone here knows better freeasinbeer fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 23:37
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I'm so sad I missed that tankie in the wild.
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Aug 21, 2019 23:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Imagine having an opinion so stupid that you unite the loving middle east thread against you smh Gives you hope that peace in the middle East may be obtainable
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Aug 22, 2019 04:34
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I've really noticed more and more often that tankies love to call prominent Jewish anarchists ((((((zionists))))) even when said anarchists arent actually zionists
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Aug 22, 2019 08:32
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