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Oh yeah I forgot they were small colonies. Fair point. It still is pretty crazy how cavalier he was about it considering he went beast mode against Garak at the end of In the Pale Moonlight when he found out how the senator died.
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Aug 25, 2019 12:20
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CptAwesome posted:Oh yeah I forgot they were small colonies. Fair point. It still is pretty crazy how cavalier he was about it considering he went beast mode against Garak at the end of In the Pale Moonlight when he found out how the senator died.
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Aug 25, 2019 12:25
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EimiYoshikawa posted:edit (actually, now that I think about it, with all its post-9/11 insanity, did Archer torture any prisoners in Enterprise? It's the one (actually, two, now, thanks Discovery, which I am also not counting here for the purpose of this post, obviously) series I've never rewatched after its initial airdates). I don't remember the full context, if it was a prisoner or what, but there was definitely a thing where Archer was next to an airlock with some guy and threatened to let him out of the airlock if he didn't give him some information. It was treated as a bad thing but only in that "hard men making hard choices" sort of way.
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Aug 25, 2019 12:29
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CptAwesome posted:I'd still classify that as attempted genocide, I think? He followed a course of action that would have resulted in the deaths of millions had they not taken action. I think that downgrades it to "mere ethnic cleansing" at best.
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Aug 25, 2019 12:54
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CptAwesome posted:I'd still classify that as attempted genocide, I think? He followed a course of action that would have resulted in the deaths of millions had they not taken action. I think his attempt, in the sense of being the intended outcome of the stunt, wasn't genocide, but rather exactly what ended up happening: moved colonists, no casualties, a situation acceptable to the Cardassians. This should still be against the rules, obviously, because of the risk involved, but I think his intent matters here when classifying it. And as others have said, there is no real analogue to the sci-fi nature of his threat.
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Aug 25, 2019 14:33
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Forced relocations of large populations is also classified as genocide
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Aug 25, 2019 14:47
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The alternative was for Sisko to allow Eddington to continue to gas Cardassian colonies, because it had already been demonstrated that Starfleet didn't have the resources to find and stop him in time. I'm not sure how that doesn't end with Cardassian warships rolling up and nuking the Maquis colonies en masse.
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Aug 25, 2019 16:16
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Forgot how angry and shouty Picard was about Data making Lal. Chill out Jean-Luc. Also lol at Lal's initial form. Edit- lmao at the huge headed Andorian that is one of her appearance options. 
marktheando fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 16:32
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marktheando posted:Forgot how angry and shouty Picard was about Data making Lal. Chill out Jean-Luc. I love to imagine this episode if she chose this form.
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Aug 25, 2019 16:53
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:Forced relocations of large populations is also classified as genocide Yeeeeeah, but, this is like saying that forcing the Israeli settlers out of Palestine would be genocide, which I'm now absolutely certain is an argument someone will actually make  We're talking about a thousand settlers with space ships that are being given their own planet to replace
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Aug 25, 2019 16:54
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Using more ordinary color(s) for the Andorian's outfit would have gone a long way toward looking making him look less ridiculous. E: Also ditch the Jetsons shoulder thingies. (uniform greebles?) Hipster_Doofus fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 16:58
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I'm not sure how that doesn't end with Cardassian warships rolling up and nuking the Maquis colonies en masse. Well, according to Voyager, it basically does?
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Aug 25, 2019 17:03
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Data is NOT ready to be a robot dad.Hipster_Doofus posted:Using more ordinary color(s) for the Andorian's outfit would have gone a long way toward looking making it look less ridiculous. Pretty much every design choice there is ???? No wonder the Andorians didn't show themselves much in the TNG era. bull3964 posted:Well, according to Voyager, it basically does? Yeah this happens later in DS9, they all die.  settler colonialist scum
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Aug 25, 2019 17:04
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Hipster_Doofus posted:Using more ordinary color(s) for the Andorian's outfit would have gone a long way toward looking making it look less ridiculous. Stop shop-shaming FFS
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Aug 25, 2019 17:05
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Timby posted:What? No. He looks around the bridge and says, "drat," because of his vanity. He still hasn't come to terms with aging. Stuff like that shows how strong the bond between Kirk and his crew is. He came to work one day wearing that curly TJ Hooker wig and none of them ever mentioned it.
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Aug 25, 2019 17:15
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marktheando posted:No wonder the Andorians didn't show themselves much in the TNG era. Andorian culture got really weird and insular for a while. Nobody really visited and they didn't explore much, they just kept building up higher hairdos and shinier outfits with more flanges, and they'd walk along the ice canals preening.
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Aug 25, 2019 17:33
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marktheando posted:Data is NOT ready to be a robot dad. Who truly is though? Data did the best he could, and as far as I am concerned his child was murdered by Starfleet. 
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Aug 25, 2019 18:07
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Edited my post to change "it" to "him." I meant making the Andorian look less ridiculous, not just his outfit.
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Aug 25, 2019 18:20
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Hipster_Doofus posted:Edited my post to change "it" to "him." I meant making the Andorian look less ridiculous, not just his outfit. Actually it was an Andorian female. But yeah its all the terrible choices adding up. Hopefully we will see some more Andorians in Picard and the other shows, I like their current design. 
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Aug 25, 2019 18:36
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marktheando posted:Actually it was an Andorian female. But yeah its all the terrible choices adding up. I think the eyebrow antennae and cheek prosthetics make it look way too busy. All I see is the blue guy from Animorphs. Enterprise did it right by keeping it relatively simple and preserving the actors’ face. Whoever does the Disco prosthetic work loves to cover the alien actors’ faces and make it tougher for them to emote and enunciate and it loving sucks.
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Aug 25, 2019 18:49
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Wasn't it like, a rule for years and years that they weren't supposed to lose the actor underneath the prosthetic? I thought they introduced that after they had the fleetwood mac guy on as that fish dude
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Aug 25, 2019 18:54
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I said come in! posted:Who truly is though? Data did the best he could, and as far as I am concerned his child was murdered by Starfleet. I paused to run some errands so just watching the end now. Man they really did kill her, loving Starfleet admirals are the worst. Bunch of robophobes. Big Mean Jerk posted:I think the eyebrow antennae and cheek prosthetics make it look way too busy. All I see is the blue guy from Animorphs. Enterprise did it right by keeping it relatively simple and preserving the actors’ face. Whoever does the Disco prosthetic work loves to cover the alien actors’ faces and make it tougher for them to emote and enunciate and it loving sucks. Tighclops posted:Wasn't it like, a rule for years and years that they weren't supposed to lose the actor underneath the prosthetic? I thought they introduced that after they had the fleetwood mac guy on as that fish dude I take the point about interfering with performances, but they went too far in the other direction for a long while, far too many aliens who are just humans with funny foreheads in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era. It's good to see more alien looking aliens in the modern stuff.
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Aug 25, 2019 18:59
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marktheando posted:I paused to run some errands so just watching the end now. Man they really did kill her, loving Starfleet admirals are the worst. Bunch of robophobes. I agree regarding the super phoned-in forehead jobs but the Westmore era still did a better job of putting the actors in prosthetic-heavy looks that didn’t impede their ability to act. Quark, Phlox, Neelix, Odo, etc are all heavy appliances that took up a majority of the actors’ faces but you rarely ever had an issue getting them to showcase emotion. Compare that to L’Rell and Voq from Disco season 1 who can barely even move their jaws or raise their eyebrows. In fairness, Disco S2 did improve on this, and you could tell L’rell’s prosthetic was much lighter and restrained. But it’s still a bit much.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:07
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I agree regarding the super phoned-in forehead jobs but the Westmore era still did a better job of putting the actors in prosthetic-heavy looks that didn’t impede their ability to act. Quark, Phlox, Neelix, Odo, etc are all heavy appliances that took up a majority of the actors’ faces but you rarely ever had an issue getting them to showcase emotion. Compare that to L’Rell and Voq from Disco season 1 who can barely even move their jaws or raise their eyebrows. I think Doug Jones has been doing an amazing job of emoting from underneath three inches of Saru prosthetic.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:17
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Powered Descent posted:I think Doug Jones has been doing an amazing job of emoting from underneath three inches of Saru prosthetic. I’m sure Doug Jones actually has input on his prosthetics though, plus he’s used to working under that much latex.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:20
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I really like Saru's design, but also Doug Jones could probably deliver a powerhouse performance through the shittiest halloween mask, he's like a master of acting with prosthetics. The other Kelpians we see are a bit rubbish in comparison. Lots of them don't do the weird arm movements that Saru does. Also make Saru the captain.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:27
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Doug Jones is an unfair comparison when talking about acting under latex. I also think the redesign is too busy but it's not so bad I hate it. Whatever you think of Enterprise, their handling of Andorians was perfect and far and away the best part of that show. I don't see why that needed to be adjusted at all. I like the new Tellarites though.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:34
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I feel like any talk about torturing to get information would be remiss without this clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-2d4COiKs&t=132s The Bloop posted:Yeeeeeah, but, this is like saying that forcing the Israeli settlers out of Palestine would be genocide, which I'm now absolutely certain is an argument someone will actually make Yeah, that's one of those points where the topic that the writing is trying to deal with through sci fi proxy (treaties that involve passing around territory that has people who have lived there for their whole lives) clashes with the specifics that were defined in the sci fi world. There's even a bit of implication that the governments of Star Trek are used to doing citizenship and dominion by species rather than just territory, and large populations of people living outside of their species' government's dominion just isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. It's kinda like how the Klingons are always talking about their glorious conquest, but I don't think I've ever seen an episode covering some people who they conquered.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:34
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I think Federations just find it difficult to imagine why anyone who had the option wouldn't want to live in their glorious perfect utopia where everything is definitely perfect all the time.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:38
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I think the eyebrow antennae and cheek prosthetics make it look way too busy. All I see is the blue guy from Animorphs. This was my thought. He looks like an Andalite with a mouth.
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Aug 25, 2019 19:39
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I though Kirk said "drat" when he took out the glasses to put them on because one of the lenses was broken.
FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 20:23
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marktheando posted:
Yeah I think the only other one was in the background on Risa.  Same dumb design, but at least they're blue 
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Aug 25, 2019 20:28
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FuturePastNow posted:I though Kirk said "drat" when he took out the glasses to put them on because one of the lenses was broken. Uh, he looks around and gets a look from Saavik like "WTF Glasses?", he is ticked off he has to show his age.
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Aug 25, 2019 20:32
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The Bloop posted:Yeah I think the only other one was in the background on Risa. Elvira was really big on Andoria in the 2360s.
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Aug 25, 2019 20:39
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marktheando posted:Actually it was an Andorian female. But yeah its all the terrible choices adding up. Me too, and I just realized they basically turned them into snails.
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Aug 25, 2019 20:45
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marktheando posted:Actually it was an Andorian female. But yeah its all the terrible choices adding up. I like this design a lot, this is way better then how they use to look.
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Aug 25, 2019 20:52
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Sticking to the subject of alien makeup design, I’m now onto “Allegiance,” the one where Picard is kidnapped, replaced with a duplicate, and locked up with a few aliens. And I love this guy, he looks awesome- 
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Aug 25, 2019 21:06
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I said come in! posted:I like this design a lot, this is way better then how they use to look. 
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Aug 25, 2019 21:06
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marktheando posted:Sticking to the subject of alien makeup design, I’m now onto “Allegiance,” the one where Picard is kidnapped, replaced with a duplicate, and locked up with a few aliens. Is this the same guy, or at least same species, that stabbed him through the heart? Those guys are so loving metal that it was so uncharacteristic for Star Trek. (Jean-luc was also loving metal laughing at him with the blade sticking out of his chest)
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Aug 25, 2019 21:07
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The Enterprise and Disco Andorians are both pretty good
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Aug 25, 2019 21:08
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