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Every time I use a ground up outlet I get angry. Update: LED strips (temporarily) installed. Right now they're held in place by scotch tape, as we're going to need to repaint the ceiling soon enough and pull all this crap out, so I'll set them properly once we get to that stage. The first photo is with just the strips on, the second is with the strips plus three ~800 lumen lights from the track. I've gotta say, for all the dire warnings that these would be too bright and I'd need a dimmer, I'm underwhelmed by the total luminosity provided by four 3528 strips. I could easily double the output here and not be upset.  
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Aug 15, 2019 17:57
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SpartanIvy posted:Guess what kind of wire the 6-30 plug is using for neutral! (Bare copper in a Romex 12-2) You're loving golden for a 20 amp circuit then. Relabel one of the wires with white tape at the outlet, do the same at the breaker end and attach it to the neutral bar. Move that bare one to whatever grounding there is in the panel. Wait.. 12-2? It was on a 30 amp breaker, or just had a 30 amp plug?  I know dedicated AC circuits can get a bit weird, but that seems... weird.
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Aug 15, 2019 18:53
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glynnenstein posted:Ground down so water can flow out without shorting the outlet. Jaded Burnout posted:UK sockets are all ground-up for I think this reason. The whole horizontal or vertical question never arises for single-gang sockets because they're square.
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Aug 16, 2019 02:41
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STR posted:You're loving golden for a 20 amp circuit then. Relabel one of the wires with white tape at the outlet, do the same at the breaker end and attach it to the neutral bar. Move that bare one to whatever grounding there is in the panel. It may be 10-2 and I'm bad at eyeballing, but if they didn't bother getting a 4-wire romex cable, I have a feeling they used left over 12-2. I haven't used this plug for anything so I'm not too concerned about it burning down the house anytime soon. The difficult challenge with swapping the breaker is that there's no main shut off. So I'll have to pull the meter or have it pulled for me so that I can swap it out without danger.
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Aug 16, 2019 03:28
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SpartanIvy posted:It may be 10-2 and I'm bad at eyeballing, but if they didn't bother getting a 4-wire romex cable, I have a feeling they used left over 12-2. I haven't used this plug for anything so I'm not too concerned about it burning down the house anytime soon. Are you sure there's no main? It might not be in the panel you're working on (assuming that it's a subpanel with maybe a main panel or service disconnect outside?). Having a main for your house is a pretty big deal. Though if the previous owner had a 30 amp outlet/overcurrent protection with 20a wire who knows. Swapping out a breaker in a live panel is no big deal, but if you have to switch wires around to get a ground and neutral it'd be understandable to want to kill the main.
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Aug 16, 2019 04:04
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We went though this a while ago, but you can have 12-2 on a 30A breaker for a dedicated piece of equipment. There are specific requirements that must be met, and the NEC includes tables to size wire for this purpose. Here is an article that talks about this subject as it relates to AC units, a common type of dedicated circuit. Edit - maybe it has to be hardwired, and that's specially what you're referring to regarding to the receptacle? I can't remember offhand whether that was part of it. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 04:24
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It's a retrofit sub panel wired in parallel with the original 1950 fuse panel. They both connect right from the meter. I can cut power to the fuse panel with a big switch on it, but the sub panel they used for the breakers doesn't have one. Here's a photo from my inspection when I bought the house. Bottom right is the AC Condenser. Top left is the 220v for the dryer. The 3 in the top right I think go to A/C, Furnace, and blower for the HVAC. Bottom right is my 6-30 plug in the bedroom. Of note is that there's another 6-30 plug in my dining room, but it doesn't appear to be powered. I've tried getting a reading off it from my multimeter several times. I'm not sure what the deal with that one is.   For kicks, here is what my fuse panel looks like. In this photo from the inspection you will also note everything has a 30 amp fuse which is double what it's supposed to be fused at according to the door. I put in the correct 15 amp fuses and the only one I've blown has been the kitchen. I can't run my microwave and anything else. 
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Aug 16, 2019 04:29
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Motronic posted:While I'm sure it varies by region, ground up used to mean "this is a switched outlet" around here. still the same here (san diego county)
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Aug 16, 2019 06:31
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wolrah posted:I thought the UK sockets also have additional insulation on the live pins so they can't possibly be exposed while powered when combined with the depth of the socket. The plugs, you mean? Now you mention it, many do, and I hadn't realised that's what that's for until now. I was going to say that it's a relatively recent thing, but apparently I have more old poo poo lying around than I thought (and/or a selective memory) because that became a requirement in 1984. In any case the orientation was standardised earlier than that.
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Aug 16, 2019 07:10
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angryrobots posted:We went though this a while ago, but you can have 12-2 on a 30A breaker for a dedicated piece of equipment. There are specific requirements that must be met, and the NEC includes tables to size wire for this purpose. The hardwired thing is the key for the exceptions I'm familiar with (commercial building junk). There has to be a motor on the end of the circuit, whereas with a receptacle you can't know what kind of load might be plugged in. There might be other exceptions I don't know about, though.
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Aug 16, 2019 13:16
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There were exceptions for welding machines, and wall-mount AC units. Receptacles, not hard wired. I know the welding machine exception still exists, dunno about the AC.
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Aug 16, 2019 13:22
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angryrobots posted:We went though this a while ago, but you can have 12-2 on a 30A breaker for a dedicated piece of equipment. There are specific requirements that must be met, and the NEC includes tables to size wire for this purpose. One can have 15a receptacles OCP by 20a. You can also have a 50a range/welder outlet OCP by 40a with 40a wire. You can have smaller wire in the whip or 90 degree branch circuit feeding a condensor than the OCP would normally allow, but not in the NM branch circuit that runs through your house to feed the disconnect/outlet. You can oversize OCP to account for starting load with motors (whether they're on a disconnect or cord and plug), but that's not really relevant to residential DIY. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 14:24
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Blackbeer posted:One can have 15a receptacles OCP by 20a. You can also have a 50a range/welder outlet OCP by 40a with 40a wire. You can have smaller wire in the whip or 90 degree branch circuit feeding a condensor than the OCP would normally allow, but not in the NM branch circuit that runs through your house to feed the disconnect/outlet. You can oversize OCP to account for starting load with motors (whether they're on a disconnect or cord and plug), but that's not really relevant to residential DIY. It's come up in this thread, so it's relevant but not for: SpartanIvy posted:It's a retrofit sub panel wired in parallel with the original 1950 fuse panel. They both connect right from the meter. I can cut power to the fuse panel with a big switch on it, but the sub panel they used for the breakers doesn't have one. Assuming you don't have a panel upstream of these panels (especially the sub panel with no main), yeah that's pretty FUBAR, friend. It's fixable like anything but probably beyond the scope of DIY. Here in the rural South, they would probably allow adding a main panel outside (usually easiest to swap in a combination meter/main panel) and grandfather in those as existing sub panels, but YMMV.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:26
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Yeah, that's a big yikes. In the first photo you could get a tandem single pole 20a breaker to make a space for the outlet conversion you're planning, and then land your service wires to a 60a 2pole breaker in the spot where the 40a is now (assuming that's #6 wire). The switch in the second panel isn't overcurrent protection, and I'm concerned about the service wires being loose below the panel. You could budget or research for a panel replacement for that fuse box, but I'd understand waiting until you had the walls opened up someday during a renovation and fixing everything then.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:35
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I've talked to a couple electricians and they both want to install a main breaker in place of the sub panel and then slave the fuse box off of a breaker, which I think kind of sucks as a solution because then I'm still limited by the fuses inside the house. It's already expensive (~$7-10K not including drywall or other repairs) and doing it any other way would be more costly, so it is what it is. However it's worked fine for decades so I'm not in a huge rush to fix it and there are other higher priority items still. Anyway, swapping out the double pole to a single pole breaker and converting that bedroom outlet to a normal outlet still seems pretty easy to me? I just have to pull the meter, right? SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 15:40
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SpartanIvy posted:I've talked to a couple electricians and they both want to install a main breaker in place of the sub panel and then slave the fuse box off of a breaker, which I think kind of sucks as a solution because then I'm still limited by the fuses inside the house. It's already expensive (~$7-10K not including drywall or other repairs) and doing it any other way would be more costly, so it is what it is. Pulling the meter is up to your own comfort level. If you do pull the meter, I'd get those service wires on a 60a breaker and get a tandem 20a single pole breaker (about $25 all together) to make room. Bedroom circuits should be arc-fault protected, but I wouldn't make it a priority given the rest of the house.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:24
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LOL, retroing arc faults into that wiring would be trip-tastic.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:31
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I've got a GFCI nuisance tripping problem, and I'd love to try and reason through what could be going wrong before I start throwing replacement hardware at it. I'm also concerned that even if I replace all of the hardware involved with new, I'll still get ghost trips and continue tearing out my hair. My air handler is in my crawlspace, and needs a condensate pump to drain condensation. The condensate pump is on a GFCI outlet that tripped once our first year in the house, and four or five times so far in our second year in the house. It's a real pain in the rear end, because I have no way to immediately know that it trips until the overflow pan fills up, which cuts power to the air conditioning. The pump can't drain the overflow pan, so I have to get the water out of there myself. I think it could be: 1. Bad GFCI Outlet - I thought these were supposed to last 5-10 years at least? House is 2.5 years old. 2. Dirty condensate pump - My dad's theory is that the pump is internally blocked. This looks like a pain in the rear end to remove and clean. 3. Bad condensate pump - If it were bad I'd expect it to trip faster than the weeks or months it takes to trip. 4. Excessive moisture causing trips - It's a ventilated crawlspace in Nashville, mine gets humid when it storms but at least I don't have water flowing through it like my neighbor with a 2014-built house. Will humidity alone make these trip? For some reason, the GFCIs on the outside of my house don't trip, and they get actively rained on. The pump and air handler looks like this:
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Aug 25, 2019 03:14
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A shameless crosspost documenting the last outlet I have replaced in my home:Blindeye posted:Enjoy a cursed image on how to fool an outlet tester.
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Aug 25, 2019 04:05
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Blindeye posted:A shameless crosspost documenting the last outlet I have replaced in my home: FTFY
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Aug 25, 2019 06:41
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Twerk from Home posted:I've got a GFCI nuisance tripping problem, and I'd love to try and reason through what could be going wrong before I start throwing replacement hardware at it. I'm also concerned that even if I replace all of the hardware involved with new, I'll still get ghost trips and continue tearing out my hair. GFCIs are cheap (certainly compared to a condensate pump) and prone to just going bad - especially the lowest bidder contractor pack that one certainly came out of. While you're picking up the new GFCI also pick up a metal cover because a box in an unfinished space isn't supposed to have that style plastic cover on it (because things can catch on it and break when it's not tight against drywall like it was intended to be).
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Aug 25, 2019 17:52
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I want to remove an exterior sub panel that was put in for a hot tub and need a sanity check please. 1. Shut off main switch 2. Pop out 50A breakers 3. Disconnect wire from breakers 4. Disconnect wire from ground bar 5. Pull wire up and out of the box 6. Button things up and pop in filler plates 7. Main switch back on 
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Aug 26, 2019 00:17
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Alternately, turn that 50a service into a receptacle for a welder! Or an electric car!
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Aug 26, 2019 01:02
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devmd01 posted:I want to remove an exterior sub panel that was put in for a hot tub and need a sanity check please. Why remove the subpanel at all? That sounds insane to me. I feel like we've heard about this panel in other threads (or earlier in this thread.) Also kill mains, Verify Zero Volts either with a non-contact tester or a meter, then continue. I would disconnect the wires while they're on the breaker bus since it's easier to screw things that are solidly mounted, then pop the now-empty breakers out.
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Aug 26, 2019 01:06
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That’s the long term idea, if/when we get an electric car in the distant future there will be room for it. And yeah, I’ve mentioned it before, I’m just finally getting around to tacking this project. I’m not going to physically remove the panel, just disconnect the wiring and pull it back into the basement where it feeds and coil it up. It’s in a conduit on the wall in the garage. Where it’s mounted is the only possible space to route ethernet/fiber/coax up to the second floor from a planned 9U rack in the basement. I can get cables to a second floor IDF in the laundry room where that existing Comcast coax goes up into the ceiling. 
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Aug 26, 2019 01:28
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devmd01 posted:That’s the long term idea, if/when we get an electric car in the distant future there will be room for it. And yeah, I’ve mentioned it before, I’m just finally getting around to tacking this project. I’m not going to physically remove the panel, just disconnect the wiring and pull it back into the basement where it feeds and coil it up. Out of curiosity, why a 9U rack? I'm contemplating a restructure from my current "screwed to a piece of plywood" setup, but I'm having trouble envisioning more than maybe 4U of stuff without going into real overkill territory (ignoring for the moment that I'm definitely already there for most people).
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Aug 26, 2019 12:14
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It adds up quick. In no particular order: 2U patch panel 1U cable organizer 1U 24 port POE Switch 1U Router 1U PDU 1U battery backup 2U shelf for cable modem/etc Overkill is the point! I sure as hell don’t need redundant fiber interconnects between the MDF switch and the IDF switch but dammit I only want to run this cabling once. The second floor IDF will mostly be for exterior IP POE cameras and another AP, the kids sure as hell aren’t getting Ethernet drops in their room for any reason.
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Aug 26, 2019 13:20
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I put in a 12U rack as I had the space, and it was like the same price as the 9U. Only using 4U of space right now, but I'll eventually put more in the rack.
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Aug 26, 2019 16:30
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Jeez, people told me I was going overboard running Cat6 SFTP in my new house.
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Aug 26, 2019 17:43
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Nevets posted:Jeez, people told me I was going overboard running Cat6 SFTP in my new house. I mean SFTP is a fundamentally insecure protocol soo... (I know you meant STP.)
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Aug 26, 2019 18:02
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Blindeye posted:A shameless crosspost documenting the last outlet I have replaced in my home: Blindeye posted:Enjoy a cursed image on how to fool an outlet tester. In Germany we just call that "klassische Erdung". It is what is done in old buildings that don't have a ground line running. You connect ground and neutral. If the phase touches the grounded enclosure of the unit, you'd have a short. Instead of getting a nasty shock from the enclosure until the breaker goes off. And a real outlet tester will catch that. Probably not the ones for 5$ that have 3 LED's to show you everything is fine. Edit: With real outlet tester I mean something like this: https://www.pk-elektronik.de/produkte/mess-und-prueftechnik/vde-pruefgeraete/vde-0100/gmc-i-profitest-master-serie/ RabbitWizard fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 18:06
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H110Hawk posted:I mean SFTP is a fundamentally insecure protocol soo... SFTP is shielded foil twisted pair. It's when the bundle is wrapped in a braid (the S) and each pair is wrapped in foil (the F).
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Aug 26, 2019 18:09
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Jaded Burnout posted:SFTP is shielded foil twisted pair. It's when the cable is wrapped in a braid (the S) and each pair is wrapped in foil (the F). Well then. Kids these days! I'm going to go yell at the clouds.
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Aug 26, 2019 18:11
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Twerk from Home posted:I've got a GFCI nuisance tripping problem, and I'd love to try and reason through what could be going wrong before I start throwing replacement hardware at it. I'm also concerned that even if I replace all of the hardware involved with new, I'll still get ghost trips and continue tearing out my hair. Uhhh... "humidity"? Is that what you're calling that 2 inch deep puddle of water? Is that a duct running down into it? Consider something like this. If you don't think you'll be able to hear it from where the outlet currently is, you can always swap that outlet to a standard one, and install a GFCI between that outlet and the panel.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:34
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devicenull posted:Uhhh... "humidity"? Is that what you're calling that 2 inch deep puddle of water? Is that a duct running down into it? That's a full pan because the GFCI tripped and the condensate pump attached to isn't draining the pan. And that round thing is a leg the unit is sitting on because you're obviously not supposed to drop the unit into it's own condensate pan.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:41
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Twerk from Home posted:I've got a GFCI nuisance tripping problem, and I'd love to try and reason through what could be going wrong before I start throwing replacement hardware at it. I'm also concerned that even if I replace all of the hardware involved with new, I'll still get ghost trips and continue tearing out my hair. Wire a relay coil onto that GFCI circuit and then power a warning light through the NC contact off another outlet so it'll come on when the GFCI trips.
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Aug 27, 2019 01:59
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devmd01 posted:It adds up quick. In no particular order: Ok, this makes sense. I was only allocating 1U each for a shelf and patch panel and omitting a battery and cable organizer (and my router and switch would probably both be shelf-mounted for now). You have successfully convinced me of the wisdom of over-engineering.
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Aug 27, 2019 02:01
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This is the larger version of the 9U I have in my list. That extra space is tempting... NavePoint 12U Wall Mount IT Open Frame 19 Inch Rack with Swing Out Hinged Gate Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0714JBWMF/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_P0izDb4MJDVZZ edit: just put in for PTO on Friday to take advantage of the long weekend, I’m gonna work on getting the breakers out/wiring pulled back. I’m gonna ask a neighbor to come hang out just in case something goes horribly wrong. I have a good contact tester, etc. so will report back. devmd01 fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 02:54
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Got the breaker and wiring out without incident. Had a neighbor come over and watch just in case. I just need to buy blank covers, and finish up pulling the cabling back into the basement. 
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Aug 30, 2019 16:51
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devmd01 posted:Got the breaker and wiring out without incident. Had a neighbor come over and watch just in case. I just need to buy blank covers, and finish up pulling the cabling back into the basement. Throw the breaker back in, off, no wires attached, and label it SPARE. Free cover for the cost of sharpie ink.
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Aug 30, 2019 17:34
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